The St Regis Residences (former Whiskey Priest site) | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

dshoost88 said:
Unfortunately when you put parking for 179 vehicles in a robotic parking garage facility + a loading dock for the lone retail use, the garage doors are going to take up a lot more space then the better-designed streetscape you shared. :/
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Yep, in America cars matter more than people. Our government will even subsidize our car culture by building a parking garage (seaport transportation center) using taxpayer dollars. Sure that money could be spent improving the silver line or transferring it to light rail however Cars are more important in this country. Also don't dare to tare down the Harbor Garage. How else will car obsessed suburbanites get to our run down aquarium. They might have to deal with the horrors of public transportation!

Boston spent 20 billion dollars putting a stupid highway underground. Imagine if that money was spent on public transportation. Our public transit system could have been as good as the ones in Europe or Asia.

Sorry for getting off topic and ranting.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

tysmith95 said:
Yep, in America cars matter more than people. Our government will even subsidize our car culture by building a parking garage (seaport transportation center) using taxpayer dollars.
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I hate parking garages as much as the next guy but come on. That parking garage will make the money back plus some.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Blackdog said:
I hate parking garages as much as the next guy but come on. That parking garage will make the money back plus some.
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If the parking garage will make money than a private company should build the garage. Why is the state doing it? I believe that parking garages are not something that the government should be involved in. Numerous studies have shown that parking garages increase traffic and hurt the environment. The state should have just sold the site and than Boston could collect real estate taxes from whatever is built there.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

tysmith95 said:
If the parking garage will make money than a private company should build the garage. Why is the state doing it? I believe that parking garages are not something that the government should be involved in. Numerous studies have shown that parking garages increase traffic and hurt the environment. The state should have just sold the site and than Boston could collect real estate taxes from whatever is built there.
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I agree with where you're coming from, but thanks to the parking cap rules a private company is not allowed to build a public garage here while Massport is. Stupid, I know...

But this is all a discussion for another thread. Maybe a moderator could move these posts?
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

datadyne007 said:
Thanks Dshoost for that great recap.

For the record, the BCDC asked Elkus for views of the loading dock/car elevators at the last BCDC meeting too lol. They are really hesitant to provide them and I think we all know why.
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Seriously, could they be more obvious?

Every single render cuts off at the garage area? Really?


Excellent notes btw, thanks.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Does that mean the BRA and Walsh admn want construction to begin asap??
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

odurandina said:
Does that mean the BRA and Walsh admn want construction to begin asap??
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This is related:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...d-precedent/knR5uMA7TKsM6qJ1U3LZUO/story.html

My initial impression is that the CLF is full of it. I fail to see how a project that provides the public with access to the waterfront where none existed before can possibly be violating the public's right to access the waterfront.

EDIT

"The Conservation Law Foundation argues that without the additional city land or the new 12-foot-wide Harborwalk connection included in the calculations, the tower would take over nearly all of the site’s ground space, clearly violating the state law.

Campbell said it’s meaningless to have coverage limitations for tidelands property if those can be overcome by simply building out over the water: “It’s an artful misuse of the regulations that essentially walls off the public from all but 12 feet of the waterfront."
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That may be the most arrogantly dense and intentionally misleading thing I've ever read, given that the 12 feet the project allows is infinitely more than the zero feet the current restaurants allow.

FURTHER EDIT

Also, they're quoting an 1866 law. The "tideland" on which this site is located was filled after 1880.

growth-boston-shore-lines1.jpg


Technically, as far as Chapter 91 is concerned, the whole project is "simply building out over the water." That's a dumb technicality, but no more dumb than Campbell's.
 
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Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Wow. You need to post that rebuke up in the Globe.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

All legal decisions hang on precedent when it exists. The CLF is a watchdog in this state and if they simply let this project happen, there are probably concerns not due to the site itself but due to the precedent that would be set by the project. I agree that in this specific case I would prefer the project (I guess I would, I'm not jerking off about it like the rest of the board, though)... but I am sure the reasons the CLF has are other than pure obstructionism. Overall, they are a force for good in this state, so chill out.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Cronin's proposed building exceeds the open space requirements of Chapter 91, even with the flexibility that is sometimes granted to exceed those requirements. Cronin proposes to increase the size of his site (and create open space) for the purposes of Chapter 91 calculations by building a section of Harborwalk for $10 million, on land that he does not own.

Using rule of thumb set out in the draft Harbor Plan for the properties along Atlantic Ave, and assuming 25,000 sq ft of land for the building footprint and no open space, he might need 8,000 sq ft of Harborwalk. At 12 feet wide, that's 666 linear feet of Harborwalk. The water-side perimeter of his site is not 666 feet.

The tidal waters on which he proposes to build the section of Harborwalk are outside the Magenta Line (which basically applies to properties along Atlantic Ave.) and thus any Harborwalk at this location in the manner suggested would require a Corps permit under the Clean Water Act.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Provisions in the Draft DOWNTOWN WATERFRONT DISTRICT MUNICIPAL HARBOR PLAN with respect to lot coverage, and the offsets required for exceeding the 50 percent lot coverage standard in Chapter 91.

Marriott Long Wharf: Total lot coverage shall not exceed 80%, where the substitute provision shall apply only to single-floor additions that accommodate FPAs to activate the waterfront. For a project site of approximately 108,000 square feet, lot coverage shall not exceed approximately 86,400 square feet, an additional maximum lot coverage of approximately 18,000 square feet.

Harbor Garage: Total lot coverage shall not exceed 70%. For a project site of approximately 58,000 square feet, lot coverage shall not exceed approximately 40,600 square feet, or approximately 11,600 square feet more than the Waterways standard.

Hook Wharf: Total lot coverage shall not exceed 70%. For a project site of approximately 20,000 square feet, lot coverage shall not exceed 14,000 square feet, or approximately 4,000 square feet more than the Waterways standard.

All Other New Structures: Any new structure that exceeds the provisions of 310 CMR 9.51(3)(d) shall not exceed 70% lot coverage. [Emphasis added.]
.......

The required offsets for Harbor Garage for exceeding 50 percent lot coverage.:

2. The conversion of the Chart House Parking Lot to public open space, subject to the amplification in Section 3.2.1, at an adjusted 2016 estimate cost of $3.8 million;

3. The renovation of Old Atlantic Avenue for public open space, subject to the amplification in Section 3.2.1, at an adjusted 2016 estimate cost of $3.2 million;

4. The renovation of Central Wharf, in conjunction with plans developed by the New England Aquarium, for public open space, subject to the amplification in Section 3.2.1, at an adjusted 2016 estimate cost of $7.0 million; and

5. The renovation of the BRA property between the harbor and the Harbor Garage site, for public open space, above any mitigation for the use of the site for the Harbor Garage development, subject to the amplification in Section 3.2.1, at an adjusted 2016 estimate cost of $4.3 million.

6. The improvement, renovation, or other use of open space within the DTW MHP area that is consistent with the amplifications and offsets in the DTW MHP.

Any additional offsets to be determined in licensing shall be selected from the list of public realm improvements in Section 3.4.4. These include:

* Additional open space improvements, including the Northern Avenue Bridge, the current non-universally accessible section of the Harborwalk behind the U.S. Coast Guard building at 408 Atlantic Avenue, and the seaward end of Long Wharf.

* Water transportation facilities, including docks, piers, and waiting rooms that are resilient to the impacts of coastal inundation.

* Subsidies for water transportation, including scheduled service within Boston’s Inner Harbor, water taxis, and ferries to the Boston Harbor Islands.

* Programming or capital improvement funds for exterior public open space areas, within the DTW MHP or within Christopher Columbus Park, the Rose Kennedy Greenway, and the Boston Harbor Islands.
_________________________________________

I think it would be difficult for the BRA to argue that lot coverage for Whiskey Priest should be allowed to exceed 70 percent, as 70 percent appears to be the upper bound of what the Commonwealth will allow. And you don't get to 70 percent by creating new 'land' by building out over the water.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

stellarfun said:
Cronin's proposed building exceeds the open space requirements of Chapter 91, even with the flexibility that is sometimes granted to exceed those requirements. Cronin proposes to increase the size of his site (and create open space) for the purposes of Chapter 91 calculations by building a section of Harborwalk for $10 million, on land that he does not own.
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Cronin is proposing to assemble sites that he does not own by purchasing them or acquiring easements. That's how he can build his building. If he only owned what he already owns the project could not happen, so assessing it on that basis is logically unsound.

Not to mention: his acquisition of public land is predicated on him getting approval for the project. You're presenting a Catch-22 for Cronin - you wouldn't approve him because he doesn't own land he can't own until you approve him.

stellarfun said:
Using rule of thumb set out in the draft Harbor Plan for the properties along Atlantic Ave, and assuming 25,000 sq ft of land for the building footprint and no open space, he might need 8,000 sq ft of Harborwalk. At 12 feet wide, that's 666 linear feet of Harborwalk. The water-side perimeter of his site is not 666 feet.
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The Harborwalk is 18 feet wide, as cited in the Globe. According to documents filed with the BRA, the ground floor area of the building in this case is 13,182 square feet. Earlier in the same document, the site is listed as 16,527 SF of current land and 33,100 SF of water that Cronin intends to build over, for a total of 49,627 SF. That's 80% coverage of the land portion of the site and 33% coverage of the total. I think the total includes some water he's not filling (because the site plan clearly does not show a 2/3 of the site as open).

So, I pulled the site plan into Microsoft Office (which is terrible for measuring areas) and came up with about 66% of the site covered. That's below the 70% threshold you cited.

stellarfun said:
I think it would be difficult for the BRA to argue that lot coverage for Whiskey Priest should be allowed to exceed 70 percent, as 70 percent appears to be the upper bound of what the Commonwealth will allow. And you don't get to 70 percent by creating new 'land' by building out over the water.
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Ummm.... yes you do. In the real world, that's exactly how you create new land, and it's how Cronin is proposing to provide public access and amenities on a (short) stretch of waterfront that currently lacks them. Just for reference, here's his site plan:

hvap05.png


The only world in which that site plan, with a huge public plaza on one end and a wide public walkway on the water, is not in compliance this law is the world of BS frivolous lawsuits and legal technicalities.

The CLF may be a watchdog, but this is in conflict with its mission. This lawsuit hurts public access, hurts cleanup of the waterfront, hurts beautification of the Seaport... in return, the CLF gets another little ego boost about what a tough watchdog it is.
 
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Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Besides this agency which I believe they change the law every-year to something different because how did all this garbage get built in the first place if CHAP 91 exsisted since 1866?:

Does any NIMBYS really give a shit if this site gets developed? Nobody really lives near this area? Especially any real locals
"Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport "

Seems like this AGENCY lacks basic logic.
 
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Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

equilbria, thanks for your research.

From Cronin's filing with the BRA (from where you got your numbers) we find this:

Land area of the site: 16,527 square feet (land Cronin already owns or intends to purchase)

Water area of the site: 33,100 square feet (the water is owned by the United States)

Footprint of lower floors: 13,182 square feet

Footprint of upper floors because of cantilever: 15.117 square feet

Percentage of land area 'occupied' by lower floors 79.8 percent

Percentage of land area 'occupied' by upper floors 91.5 percent
With Harbor Towers, I recall that the Commonwealth decreed that Chiofaro's glass atrium could not be counted as 'open space' for the purposes of Chapter 91, a comment made at the time was that open space meant open to the sky. Thus, I suspect the land below a cantilevered section of a building would not be considered to be 'open space'.
_________________________
In 1968, Congress passed a law declaring that certain waters generally west of a line from the Coast Guard base to the Northern Ave. bridge were not navigable waters of the United States. These waters are proximate to the wharves and piers that lined Atlantic Ave. and Commercial St. Quite likely, Congress passed the law to facilitate development of the piers and wharves. This area of water is commonly referred to as the Magenta Zone. Thus, Mr. Chiofaro would not need a permit from the Corps of Engineers to build his 'steps to the sea', because the waters are not navigable waters of the United States.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

stellarfun said:
equilbria, thanks for your research.

From Cronin's filing with the BRA (from where you got your numbers) we find this:

Land area of the site: 16,527 square feet (land Cronin already owns or intends to purchase)

Water area of the site: 33,100 square feet (the water is owned by the United States)

Footprint of lower floors: 13,182 square feet

Footprint of upper floors because of cantilever: 15.117 square feet

Percentage of land area 'occupied' by lower floors 79.8 percent

Percentage of land area 'occupied' by upper floors 91.5 percent
With Harbor Towers, I recall that the Commonwealth decreed that Chiofaro's glass atrium could not be counted as 'open space' for the purposes of Chapter 91, a comment made at the time was that open space meant open to the sky. Thus, I suspect the land below a cantilevered section of a building would not be considered to be 'open space'.
_________________________
In 1968, Congress passed a law declaring that certain waters generally west of a line from the Coast Guard base to the Northern Ave. bridge were not navigable waters of the United States. These waters are proximate to the wharves and piers that lined Atlantic Ave. and Commercial St. Quite likely, Congress passed the law to facilitate development of the piers and wharves. This area of water is commonly referred to as the Magenta Zone. Thus, Mr. Chiofaro would not need a permit from the Corps of Engineers to build his 'steps to the sea', because the waters are not navigable waters of the United States.
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But the canopied area at the GE HQ counts as open space -- at least every calls it that.

I guess we just like GE better than Chiofaro.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

JeffDowntown said:
But the canopied area at the GE HQ counts as open space -- at least every calls it that.

I guess we just like GE better than Chiofaro.
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IIRC, all or nearly all the open space in Chiofaro's Harbor Garage proposal was the atrium / passageway between the towers, and which was open to the glass 'ceiling'.

Some changes to the numbers I used supra, from a June 2016 submission to the Commonwealth from the BRA.

SOUTH BOSTON WATERFRONT DISTRICT MUNICIPAL HARBOR PLAN RENEWAL AND AMENDMENT

To create the [Whiskey Priest] project site, the Proponent will demolish the two existing building structures, and will build an approximately 7,600 square foot pile-supported open space area that includes the water dependent use zone (WDUZ) and a 12-foot wide, approximately 3,355 square foot Harborwalk along the north and east sides of the site. In total, the site will have approximately 9,767 SF of public open space. [Comment: 7,600 + 3,355 do not equal 9,767]

As the building moves upward, a series of discreet, stepped cantilevers increases the building footprint along Seaport Boulevard while simultaneously pulling back a smaller portion of the building along the seaward edge. The total lot coverage of the building footprint is approximately 15,600 SF, or approximately 65%, or up to a maximum of 70% depending upon the final project site size. [Comment: the 65 percent and 70 percent refer to a 25,000 square foot lot, which includes waters of the United States.]

The building will remain within the fee interest property line, with the exception of the cantilevered south façade, which will extend 13’ horizontally over the sidewalk. This cantilevered portion will begin approximately 44 feet above grade, stepping out 6’-6” at level 4, and then stepping out an additional 6’-6” over the sidewalk at level 5, approximately 54 feet above grade

It has been designed to minimize lot coverage/building footprint at the ground level, where the building footprint is approximately 11,200 SF, or approximately 45% of the project site, in order to open up view corridors to the harbor and increase pedestrian access to the waterfront. As the building
increases in height, the building footprint increases to approximately 15,600 SF, for a total lot coverage of approximately 65%, or up to a maximum of 70% depending upon the final project site size. Since open space in an MHP is considered as only those areas open to the sky, the public exterior areas below the cantilevered sections of the building are not considered open space
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Footprint of lower floors: [13,182] 11,200 square feet

Footprint of upper floors because of cantilever: [15.117] 15,600 square feet

Land area of the site: 16,527 square feet (No change)

Water area of the site: [33,100] 7,600(?) square feet (the water is owned by the United States)
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

The rules are just different for different players concerning Chap 91.

This is a fact because if they abided by the Chap 91 law since 1800's we would not have Harbor Garage in the first place.
 
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