General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

datadyne007 said:
This fact leads me to believe they will be POP-validation based not actual gates. A lot of people use mTicket anyway, so they could just walk through and board without stopping. People with paper tickets or passes could stop and get it validated.
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What's the point of getting a pass validated? And (from my observations) most people only pay with the mTicket app as the conductor is approaching, so they can get around validation that way.

I can see the value in validating paper tickets and eliminating cash-on-board, but that has to be a very narrow slice of possible revenue.
 
JumboBuc said:
What's the point of getting a pass validated? And (from my observations) most people only pay with the mTicket app as the conductor is approaching, so they can get around validation that way.

I can see the value in validating paper tickets and eliminating cash-on-board, but that has to be a very narrow slice of possible revenue.
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The revenue from POP comes from fear. You have to step up enforcement/ticket validation checks on-board & have very high fine penalties in order for it to work. It's not as difficult to instill fear in Germany with the Polizei in berets yelling at you for your ticket or else a €80 fine (they will mail anywhere in the world) than it is in the US...
 
I don't get this validation thing - Is it really that easy to avoid the conductor once you're on board? I can't remember ever seeing anyone sneaking around on the train trying to dodge the conductor.
 
datadyne007 said:
The revenue from POP comes from fear. You have to step up enforcement/ticket validation checks on-board & have very high fine penalties in order for it to work. It's not as difficult to instill fear in Germany with the Polizei in berets yelling at you for your ticket or else a €80 fine (they will mail anywhere in the world) than it is in the US...
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The two times I've seen the Polizei nail people, in Munich, there was no yelling, the cops were on the quiet steely-eyed end of the spectrum. Coldly polite. The mortification for the persons being nabbed was very real.

I saw someone get nailed on the D branch of Green Line once. Same thing: cops were polite, but unwavering. The woman's attire showed she could clearly afford the fare. After the cops departed the train, she tried to elicit sympathy from her neighbors, got open scorn instead. She attempted to keep a game face on, but it was obvious she was humiliated and knew where the blame lay.

Fear of public embarrassment is an exceptionally powerful tool not just for the person caught, but for all who observe it. Only a handful of lifelong scofflaws who will cheat any system and not care when they get caught. And there aren't so many of them.

And the cops don't need to be scary at all. We would need to increase the fines and frequency of enforcement, as you note. But cold politeness does the trick just fine, probably better than yelling with most people.
 
The difference between the subway and the commuter rail is the fact that a subway rider has no way to buy a ticket on the subway once on a train so POP might be a deterrent. However on a commuter rail, many commuter rail riders wait to "activate" aka pay for their ticket on their cell phones until the conductor comes through the train car.
 
CSTH said:
I don't get this validation thing - Is it really that easy to avoid the conductor once you're on board? I can't remember ever seeing anyone sneaking around on the train trying to dodge the conductor.
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I think its more that on a crowded train, if youre getting off at an early stop, the guy might never get around to you.

saulblum said:
Are these the standard Charlie gates? If so, how will they handle mTicket?
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Where there's a consultant theres a way!

The fare gates at the Newark Airport Air Train used to take paper tickets, and were modified with a supermarket-style glass reader to read mobile phone screens.

Its horribly slow.
 
Re: Auburndale Station

Balerion said:
Ari Ofsevit wrote a blog post detailed a proposed solution that uses the money that would no longer needed for the interlocking to create two platforms and a station overpass that includes an extension across the Pike to create a nice pedestrian link in the neighborhood, on top of increasing station accessibility.
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That's certainly a big step in the right direction if we're going to have platforms on both sides, but I think a responsible use of public money ought to start by building the north side accessible high platforms at the other two stations before we spend any money on south side accessible high platforms; we shouldn't be upgrading capacity at Auburndale before we make West Newton and Newtonville accessible. Our politicians show deep disrepect for people with limited mobility who may want to use West Newton and Newtonville if they refuse (even through what they may try to pass off as inaction) after being made aware of the options to allow this money to be used to provide an initial level of accessibility at the two additional stations and instead spend it on an Auburndale capacity upgrade that the T doesn't even seem to be asking for at this point.

I also think the long term plan ought to be thinking about how we can get a third (and maybe even fourth?) track through the Auburndale - West Newton - Newtonville area.

Consider a future where we might want to have 15 minute headways in the peak direction on each of

  • start at Wellesley Farms, make every local stop at Auburndale, West Newton, Newtonville, Boston Landing, West Station, Station That Needs To Be Renamed To Not Honor A Racist, Back Bay, South Station
  • start at Framingham, make every local stop through Wellesley Farms, then make no stops until stopping at West Station and make every stop after that.
  • start at Worcester, make every stop through Framingham, then run express making no stops until West Station and make every stop after that.
  • start at Springfield, take some route to Worcester that isn't the traditional Boston and Albany route, with steeper grades but faster travel times, make no more stops between Worcester and West Station than possibly Framingham, continue by making every local stop between West Station and South Station.

and then hourly service on

  • Webster to Worcester then express to Boston
  • Gardner to Worcester then express to Boston
  • Amherst to Palmer to Worcester then express to Boston

plus some reverse peak service.
 
Balerion said:
The MBTA is talking about cutting all weekend commuter rail service.

A terrible, bad, no-good idea and a complete step in the wrong direction.

If ridership sucks, we must cut service instead of asking if ridership sucks because service levels are poor. (Nobody seems to know exactly what commuter rail ridership is anyway, come to that.)
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The commuter rail is already in a death spiral; a friend who lived in Brookline recently got a job in Providence and found that even with having to pay to have her car lease mileage increased, she'd come out ahead driving in every day v. the cost of a monthly commuter rail pass. Who are they targeting with these prices? No wonder ridership's falling.
 
This pisses me off because I go back to Worcester on the weekends during the spring/summer/fall for a variety of non-work reasons. If they cut this service then I won't be leaving Boston ever.
 
novitiate said:
The commuter rail is already in a death spiral; a friend who lived in Brookline recently got a job in Providence and found that even with having to pay to have her car lease mileage increased, she'd come out ahead driving in every day v. the cost of a monthly commuter rail pass. Who are they targeting with these prices? No wonder ridership's falling.
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The core business of the commuter rail is people commuting into downtown Boston. For these people the monthly passes will almost always be cheaper than parking costs alone.
 
You'd have to take a Peter Pan bus to Worcester on the weekends.
 
If Peter Pan employed a competent lobbyist, would it occur to that lobbyist to propose cancellation of weekend commuter rail service?

Also, it seems like the Lake Shore Limited might have the potential to be an alternative to the bus.
 
Re: Commuter Rail Fares

whittle said:
The core business of the commuter rail is people commuting into downtown Boston. For these people the monthly passes will almost always be cheaper than parking costs alone.
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But is the current pricing structure the reason that primarily people who would otherwise pay for downtown parking tend to choose commuter rail?
 
Joel N. Weber II said:
If Peter Pan employed a competent lobbyist, would it occur to that lobbyist to propose cancellation of weekend commuter rail service?

Also, it seems like the Lake Shore Limited might have the potential to be an alternative to the bus.
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If the Lake Shore Limited survives the Amtrak funding cuts.
 
Re: Commuter Rail Fares

Joel N. Weber II said:
But is the current pricing structure the reason that primarily people who would otherwise pay for downtown parking tend to choose commuter rail?
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It's a reason along with the relative lack of walk-ability and transit accessibility around most outlying stops and the relative ease of driving in the reverse commute.
 
Balerion said:
The MBTA is talking about cutting all weekend commuter rail service.

A terrible, bad, no-good idea and a complete step in the wrong direction.

If ridership sucks, we must cut service instead of asking if ridership sucks because service levels are poor. (Nobody seems to know exactly what commuter rail ridership is anyway, come to that.)
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Mass transit is only economically effective when there is a mass to transit... If there aren't enough people on the weekends, then run some buses.
 
There is no reason on earth why the price to ride a standing room only, packed to the gills 6 pack express train heading into south station for 8:30 on a Tuesday should cost as much as a train heading in the opposite direction making all stops with 1 passenger per car. The T is forfeiting money by not collecting surge fares on the first, and wasting money by not dropping fares on the second.



If I were more cynical I'd believe that they were targeting this precisely to cut down on transit advocacy in the Boston region, and to dissuade our state government from investing in the T as a whole.

It's hard to picture yourself ever using the commuter rail as say, a Sharon resident working a 9-5 in Dedham, when the CR even doesn't exist on days you're not working. Suddenly the pool of people who "may" use the CR dwindles from....the whole town... to.. the 1000 people who take it every single day. And that becomes a lot easier to cut when 80% of the region doesn't feel like they're getting a fair shake out of the deal. But in all likelihood this is a bargaining chip to now cut 2 more lines of CR rather than the whole thing.
 
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