General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

saulblum said:
A little spreadsheet I put together with numbers from the 2014 Blue Book.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_5A9ziNUWsgfnhRXT5e_634kFgGOgfzSh0rEaPw18o8/edit?usp=sharing

Several lines average close to 200 passengers per train on Saturday. Seems like pretty healthy ridership to me. Despite the pathetic weekend schedules, the trains are being used.

Of course any commuter rail ridership figures should be taken with a grain of salt.

http://commonwealthmagazine.org/transportation/commuter-rail-ridership-numbers-dont-add-up/
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I would want to look at the cost of running the train versus the cost of running 4 or 5 buses on the equivalent route. And it would actually be an improvement in service if you ran those buses more frequently versus the once an hour or more of the CR. And you generally aren't as concerned with car traffic being as major a consideration interfering with bus service on the weekends.

Gives the CR a bigger track and train maintenance window which could lower costs and increase reliability. And you generally see bus service replacing train service during maintenance and repair periods anyway.

No reason this should be decided on anything but the math.
 
tangent said:
I would want to look at the cost of running the train versus the cost of running 4 or 5 buses on the equivalent route. And it would actually be an improvement in service if you ran those buses more frequently versus the once an hour or more of the CR. And you generally aren't as concerned with car traffic being as major a consideration interfering with bus service on the weekends.
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Do you even ride the rails of which you speak or do you just look at some numbers on paper?

Yeah, this driving route from Concord to North Station looks super-competitive with the train. 40 mins on the rails vs. close to 90 by road.

https://goo.gl/maps/4JWtjAsmwdG2

Screen_Shot_2017_03_17_at_11_48_04_AM.png


And there's just tons of free space around North and South Station these days to board buses on the street.

And if you're so concerned about the math, check out http://www.t4ma.org/cutting_service

The extra cost of running trains on the weekend is largely fuel and labor. I guess you're proposing self-driving buses that run on fantasies?
 
Max Power said:
There is no reason on earth why the price to ride a standing room only, packed to the gills 6 pack express train heading into south station for 8:30 on a Tuesday should cost as much as a train heading in the opposite direction making all stops with 1 passenger per car. The T is forfeiting money by not collecting surge fares on the first, and wasting money by not dropping fares on the second.
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I agree with you on dropping fares for weekend or off peak users. I don't think, however, there is much room to surge prices higher on rush hour passengers, our commuter rail fares are already very high, I live in a close in suburb and pay $15 round trip plus $3 parking to go 12 miles into Boston. It's even more expensive for people who live in Haverhill, Framingham, Mansfield etc. They current fares are too high IMO. On the weekend, the incentive to drive is strong for those with access to a car as you can park for under $10 in downtown Boston. For a family or multiple people driving together the cost differential widens even more in favor of taking the car.

The MBTA commuter rail is the only major system with less riders now than 10 years ago. The Boston subway system has seen increases but not commuter rail. Across the country, commuter rail ridership is up which is opposite of the trend here. I suspect it is the result of expensive fares. Particularly, a few years ago both suburban parking and fare costs drastically increased and ridership declined.
 
Speaking of prices too high - Zone 1 (and still in the city) is $12.50 round trip which is crazy to go maybe ~6 miles. As for bustituting the lines on weekends - well, help any of those buses trying to get into the city via 93, which seems to be a parking lot now both on Saturdays and Sundays. Its simply getting away from the underlying issue - the MBTA refuses to go electric and get rolling stock other than old school push-pulls for the CR. Make the schedule more often and implement off peak rates for the weekends and people will come - just think of service like even the Metro North. Heaven forbid they even run outbound trains until 2am, either.
 
My weekend & offpeak fare would be
Zone 1A = (as is)
Zone 2-9 = Flat $5
 
commuter guy said:
I agree with you on dropping fares for weekend or off peak users. I don't think, however, there is much room to surge prices higher on rush hour passengers, our commuter rail fares are already very high, I live in a close in suburb and pay $15 round trip plus $3 parking to go 12 miles into Boston. It's even more expensive for people who live in Haverhill, Framingham, Mansfield etc. They current fares are too high IMO. On the weekend, the incentive to drive is strong for those with access to a car as you can park for under $10 in downtown Boston. For a family or multiple people driving together the cost differential widens even more in favor of taking the car.

The MBTA commuter rail is the only major system with less riders now than 10 years ago. The Boston subway system has seen increases but not commuter rail. Across the country, commuter rail ridership is up which is opposite of the trend here. I suspect it is the result of expensive fares. Particularly, a few years ago both suburban parking and fare costs drastically increased and ridership declined.
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Sure. I don't disagree that the whole cost structure of the commuter rail is bananas and that the CR as a product can be awful (no subway or bus integration for fares, no coordination with timetables with other modes, horrendous frequencies, poor on time performance, etc.) making the fares seem outrageous for the value you receive.



Point is -

Expresses should cost more than locals (maybe a buck? maybe two?)
Peak trains should cost more than non-peak (again maybe a dollar, maybe two)
And reverse fares should be close to nothing to encourage ridership in what are essentially equipment moves.
 
Compare your ride to an Uber price. Zone 1 (me) is cheaper than Uber, driving and parking and having a subway only pass, and driving in the city and parking.

I thought this was a board about making transportation progress, and not complaints about how one person might find one mode cheaper on a full moon in June.

Based on the recent threads, the mods should lock both the SSX and NSRL threads as unnecessary.
 
The problem is that the MBTA, like all US commuter railroads, isn't considering how to make their operations considerably more efficient and cheaper - namely by eliminating conductors. Personnel are the largest variable cost. Switch to Proof of Payment, build high platforms, run the trains with many fewer employees, and voila you can increase service and ridership (and hence revenue) for free.
 
I'm basically convinced at this point that the MBTA is incapable of actually fixing any of it's CR issues due mostly to bureaucratic incompetence. The agency needs to be gutted and rebuilt from scratch at this point.
 
meddlepal said:
I'm basically convinced at this point that the MBTA is incapable of actually fixing any of it's CR issues due mostly to bureaucratic incompetence. The agency needs to be gutted and rebuilt from scratch at this point.
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++1000---Its a cess pool of political favors--

Lifetime Pensions and healthcare packages are running the system into the ground.

You would think that the city & state and the MBTA would have invested into more self & energy efficiency along with being self sufficient overtime.

CITY, STATE AND MBTA get an F for Long-term vision for Boston or an understanding of fast, efficient transit.

the MBTA should be Bostons biggest investment because of the Education system we provide.
 
I believe so (I think its one of the new CNG buses, as it had all the factory stickers still on it)... I just found it funny that they (MBTA) still bothered to put the route # on it for the journey.
 
Subdivisions said:
I believe so (I think its one of the new CNG buses, as it had all the factory stickers still on it)... I just found it funny that they (MBTA) still bothered to put the route # on it for the journey.
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Yes, this is a New Flyer XN40 being driven from the factory in Anniston, AL. The MBTA did not activate the route number on it as this bus is not MBTA property until the MBTA accepts it. It's still the property of New Flyer.
 
curcuas said:
The problem is that the MBTA, like all US commuter railroads, isn't considering how to make their operations considerably more efficient and cheaper - namely by eliminating conductors. Personnel are the largest variable cost. Switch to Proof of Payment, build high platforms, run the trains with many fewer employees, and voila you can increase service and ridership (and hence revenue) for free.
Click to expand...

Those elements are mandated by the feds.
 
http://www.bankerandtradesman.com/2017/03/green-line-weighs-heavily-mbtas-long-term-fleet-plans/

This was in the Globe yesterday, too, for when this goes behind the paywall.

Basically, the MBTA is looking to almost fully replace the Green Line fleet (presumably with CAF Type 9s) and is having the right discussions around electrifying commuter rail or buying new diesel locomotives. They're also looking to standardize the bus fleet as a single model.

The overall goal seems to be a single model on each line/mode, with appropriate changes made to infrastructure to ensure that the MBTA can buy more standard vehicle models instead of customized ones.

Finally.
 
Equilibria said:
http://www.bankerandtradesman.com/2017/03/green-line-weighs-heavily-mbtas-long-term-fleet-plans/

This was in the Globe yesterday, too, for when this goes behind the paywall.

Basically, the MBTA is looking to almost fully replace the Green Line fleet (presumably with CAF Type 9s) and is having the right discussions around electrifying commuter rail or buying new diesel locomotives. They're also looking to standardize the bus fleet as a single model.

The overall goal seems to be a single model on each line/mode, with appropriate changes made to infrastructure to ensure that the MBTA can buy more standard vehicle models instead of customized ones.

Finally.
Click to expand...

The GL standardization would likely be Type 10. The Type 9 order is mainly just to supplement GLX service. There's an option for 30 more that the T is seeming unlikely to take, especially given their new stated goals of standardizing as much of the fleet as they can. Green would probably be the holdout on the single model goal with 9s and 10s operating for a while.
 
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