General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

[North Shore]

I'll be at the Bruins game tonight. I figure I'll be at NS around 6:00 pm. Let's see how this goes.

So, I go downstairs to use the new tunnel last night after the game. Fortunately, the concourse and tunnel weren't too crowded. Which was good, since the escalator on the Garden side wasn't working.

As for the end of the tunnel at the turnstiles - well, that was a total cluster. Made all the more frustrating by the wheelchair gate that got stuck open and tens of people just walked right through WITH A STATION ATTENDANT LEANING AGAINST A POLE JUST WATCHING THEM.

I called him out to his face, but he literally didn't blink an eye.

 

[stefal]

So, I go downstairs to use the new tunnel last night after the game. Fortunately, the concourse and tunnel weren't too crowded. Which was good, since the escalator on the Garden side wasn't working.

As for the end of the tunnel at the turnstiles - well, that was a total cluster. Made all the more frustrating by the wheelchair gate that got stuck open and tens of people just walked right through WITH A STATION ATTENDANT LEANING AGAINST A POLE JUST WATCHING THEM.

I called him out to his face, but he literally didn't blink an eye.

Was the attendant in a red shirt? Or an actual T employee? North Station will never be built to accommodate for the rush of a C's or Bruins game, but that's not an excuse for a broken fare gate...

-as a side note - the escalator is in fact reversible (was questioned earlier this week) and they had it operating with the flow of the crowd this morning.. Helped ease the congestion around the stairs quite a bit...

 

[bakgwailo]

Was the attendant in a red shirt? Or an actual T employee? North Station will never be built to accommodate for the rush of a C's or Bruins game, but that's not an excuse for a broken fare gate...

-as a side note - the escalator is in fact reversible (was questioned earlier this week) and they had it operating with the flow of the crowd this morning.. Helped ease the congestion around the stairs quite a bit...

I have definetely seen that in Kenmore during Sox games - always figured the T was just forgoing fare collection on purpose to deal with the crush load.

 

[stick n move]

Whatabout some of these for the silver line? I didnt even know rubber tire subways exist but I guess theyre big in France and Japan and some parts of Canada too. I guess they can stop faster, steeper inclines, quieter, sharper corners, and theyre quieter. Downsides are more maintenance, more parts...etc. I wonder if they could get tricked into approving a “small” upgrade to the system then for all intents and purposes wed have a full subway... a very smoothe one at that.

Edit:
Of course the silver line is light rail so a rubber tire tram would be perfect. Its just a follower guide in the middle then the tires do their thing on regular concrete we already have. It really is the same thing as light rail just smoother. Adding that middle rail wouldnt be bad at all. Why has this never been floated? Seems very straight forward, we already have a lot of the overhead power, the stations, tunnels, right of ways...etc. Some systems even use batteries where there is no overhead power. Using these trams we could keep the stations as is without adding platforms jacking up the price. Then you can have from single cars and expand it to a few together like the green line. Is this not a perfect middle ground for capacity expansion? Rubber tire trams have the best headways due to their breaking performance too. Starting from scratch theyre actually more expensive, but we would really only have to add the guide rail and tram sets. Converting it would theoretically be pretty cheap since we already have the silver line.

This type is even capable of being steered when not on the guide rail.

Glx, Fairmount DMU’s, Boston landing DMU’s, silver line rubber tire tram to Logan, maybe even to Chelsea...Added with the new Red/Green/Orange trains.. bam transit is twice as good. Throw in the gondola from North Station to Charlestown/Chelsea for shits n gigs n for massive savings we have a great set of major upgrades. Eventually kick off red-blue and NSRL and we have a major overhaul and expansive system finally running to its full potential getting cars off the roads and unlocking new neighborhoods to rapid transit.


Add a guide rail down the middle and the new tram sets on top. Some can even run on battery power and be steered when not on the guide rail too, but moving away from that would be the ideal scenario. I wonder if this could “sneak through” somehow.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Rubber-tire metros can only go off their guideway inside yard limits; they aren't roadworthy and wouldn't work at all for SL1.

Rubber-tire trams might be a better application, but the extremely short distance of the Transitway vs. distance SL1 covers in mixed traffic makes its usefulness very limited here. Plus, there's the whole can of worms on whether it would be allowed on an Interstate highway.


The best fit for Silver is what we've known all along: a light rail connection to the Green Line west of South Station, rails in the busway pavement on the Transitway so Green and Silver overlap between SS and SL Way shuffling maximal passenger load, and Airport + Chelsea dual-mode buses continuing to do their thing through the Ted less bogged down by intra-Seaport demand. Short of the third Ted transit bore that isn't ever coming, there isn't anything else that can really serve the need.

 

[stick n move]

So the Chinese took it even further and invented a system that doesnt even need a guide rail it just follows a painted line kind of like a smart car. This could be a true middle ground for capacity and cost savings. It can carry 300 people and run on battery power when theres no overhead lines. This could truly be something that actually is a plug n play massive capacity boost.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

So the Chinese took it even further and invented a system that doesnt even need a guide rail it just follows a painted line kind of like a smart car. This could be a true middle ground for capacity and cost savings. It can carry 300 people and run on battery power when theres no overhead lines. This could truly be something that actually is a plug n play massive capacity boost.

OK...again, the be-all/end-all is whether such a thing would ever be allowed by the feds on an Interstate highway. Because we don't have a Silver Line unless SL1 and SL3 can travel on I-90. It's not enough to show examples of gee-whiz off-guideway hybrid vehicles. If it's not a vehicle that conforms to conventional standards of an RMV plate category, it's vanishingly unlikely it would ever be allowed through the Ted. Importing one of these vehicles would either require an extremely rare fed waiver, or creation of an entirely new RMV plate class for an axle count that's never been seen before on an Interstate. But the feds would have to decide on that first...and when they have no timetable for rendering a decision, how exactly does a transit agency go about soliciting bids and pursuing a procurement?

Remember...the state voluntarily chose mixed-running on the Pike and all the vehicle registration compliance that entailed over building a third bore for transit, so "No fair!" or not the feds don't owe us squat here on exemptions.


That's not a sequence that's realistic to happen. There's a lot of Jetsons-shit innovation happening in bus technology. Look there for the Silver Line's future, because if the vehicle can be registered as a bus by the RMV it's guaranteed to be able to run through the Ted on SL1/SL3. On any other hybrid vehicle type that isn't a derived bus that's wishful thinking at best, naive and antithetical to procurement cycle planning at worst.

 

[stick n move]

Im just saying theres options. Maybe you have a better chance at a tunnel if you dont have to spend the multi millions per mile laying track everywhere else. Im just saying that technology is creating new solutions that can be implemented easier into cities, relax.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Im just saying theres options. Maybe you have a better chance at a tunnel if you dont have to spend the multi millions per mile laying track everywhere else. Im just saying that technology is creating new solutions that can be implemented easier into cities, relax.

But where are the options in any of those??? You're saying these are candidate vehicles for the Silver Line. Well...if it's going to roll on rubber tires on the Silver Line at all it's got to be roadworthy on an Interstate. Thus far, no rubber-tire tram is roadworthy on an Interstate, so they're useless for running SL1 or SL3. But every type of bus in existence is.

If all you're looking to do is complete the connection to the Back Bay with less heinous tunneling cost than cancelled Phase III, you're building a rail-dimension not BRT-dimension tunnel and direct-connecting it to the Green Line to draw from a 200+ car installed base of Green Line rolling stock with a bus/trolley overlap in the Transitway from SS to SL Way. You're not buying a wholly separate specialty fleet that can't interline and serves no distinct purpose. That's not saving money, that's inflating cost beyond belief by repeating the same mistakes that killed Phase III.

Options don't matter much in a contextual vacuum. Pick the right tool for the job...by understanding first what the job is. Just because it's neato tech doesn't mean it has a force-fit application here. If the Silver Line taught us anything it's that force-fits of the flavor-of-the-month is a pretty reliable way to bloat costs totally off-scale and underwhelm on the delivery.

 

[stick n move]

A tunnel is going to have to be built one day. Unless the plan is to just half ass it for the rest of time. Maybe when its built tech can help keep some costs down when connecting it. Ideally just a separate row rail line would be best. Who knows what will happen but one day something is going to have to get done thats expensive.

 

[BKNA]

The T is already buying new electric buses for the Silver Line:
https://twitter.com/MBTA/status/1083013669015994368

 

[KentXie]

Here's how not to run a line going to the airport. Run 8 consecutive silver line buses that don't go to the airport.

 

[KentXie]

The T is already buying new electric buses for the Silver Line:
https://twitter.com/MBTA/status/1083013669015994368

They are going to need it because the bus in front of mine is having trouble getting out of the tunnel under it's own power.

 

[JeffDowntown]

So the Chinese took it even further and invented a system that doesnt even need a guide rail it just follows a painted line kind of like a smart car. This could be a true middle ground for capacity and cost savings. It can carry 300 people and run on battery power when theres no overhead lines. This could truly be something that actually is a plug n play massive capacity boost.

The Chinese system shits the bed with 1/2 inch of snow. No lines to follow.

Also, we cannot even keep basic road markings painted. What makes you think we can keep transit trail lines painted.

 

[stick n move]

The seattle area has a new like 6 mile highway tunnel going through downtown, a new subway tunnel, and miles upon miles of new light rail with like 4 different lines being expanded in all directions with elevated sections, new stations, tunnels, trails, sound mitigation. Were probably talking 20+ miles of light rail going in. How the hell can we not get 1 tunnel across the short distance across the harbor, or even just under D street? What are they doing differently that allows them to do this? Theyre doing their own big dig with their own greenway to sink the elevated highway that separates the waterfront too so whats our excuse? Wtf..

Other ones I can think of are LA expanding in multiple directions, and NYC has bored a new tunnel down the whole west side. Why cant we do ANYTHING for the silver line? No red-blue like 300 yard connection, no blue to Lynn. We all know NSRL. What are they doing that were not? Were talking like 1 mile here... Its ridiculous when just 1 video of 1 line being added in Seattle is like 15 minutes to watch because it goes so far when I was trying to see whats going on there... We just have to cross from Southie to Logan lol, you could damn near hit a baseball across that shit.

 

[odurandina]

The seattle area has a new like 6 mile highway tunnel going through downtown, a new subway tunnel, and miles upon miles of new light rail with like 4 different lines being expanded in all directions with elevated sections, new stations, tunnels, trails, sound mitigation. Were probably talking 20+ miles of light rail going in. How the hell can we not get 1 tunnel across the short distance across the harbor, or even just under D street? What are they doing differently that allows them to do this?

Building their office towers 650-1200'

Building their resident towers 420-600'..... on a street grid.

Going totally massive and dense....

and not ordering enough affordable housing linkage (for years).....

The poor folk are forced to leave, & revenue goes through the roof.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The seattle area has a new like 6 mile highway tunnel going through downtown, a new subway tunnel, and miles upon miles of new light rail with like 4 different lines being expanded in all directions with elevated sections, new stations, tunnels, trails, sound mitigation. Were probably talking 20+ miles of light rail going in. How the hell can we not get 1 tunnel across the short distance across the harbor, or even just under D street? What are they doing differently that allows them to do this? Theyre doing their own big dig with their own greenway to sink the elevated highway that separates the waterfront too so whats our excuse? Wtf..

Other ones I can think of are LA expanding in multiple directions, and NYC has bored a new tunnel down the whole west side. Why cant we do ANYTHING for the silver line? No red-blue like 300 yard connection, no blue to Lynn. We all know NSRL. What are they doing that were not? Were talking like 1 mile here... Its ridiculous when just 1 video of 1 line being added in Seattle is like 15 minutes to watch because it goes so far when I was trying to see whats going on there... We just have to cross from Southie to Logan lol, you could damn near hit a baseball across that shit.

Seattle is not the panacea to be citing here. They're doing an ass job with cost control on projects for every mode. The cost blowout follies with the "Big Bertha" TBM in the highway tunnel in particular ensures they're not going to be able to afford any other big builds for a very long time.

L.A. can be chalked up to having a style of government conducive to referendums for the corridors in question. Less municipal balkanization like we've got in MA because their authorities group more to corridors, so the deck gets stacked where the transpo interests can pile up majorities even when a local tax is being levied. It's very efficient for things like transit expansion, but...ooh boy...the referendum process can make a lot of chaos out of other things we take for granted as stably top-down managed here. It's not necessarily better governance...just different out there and the Cali way of doing things. Any which way, Massachusetts gov't isn't structured anywhere close to the same way top-down as California gov't is...so we wouldn't be funding transit expansion the same way. It'd be great to be doing as much of it as L.A. is, but the paths for getting there are extremely different and legislatively impossible to replicate here.

And...oh, God...don't ever cite NYC efficiency or lackthereof! The 7 train extension and 2nd Ave. Subway Phase I were hideously over-budget, and East Side Access is gunning to take down the Big Dig as cost-mismanaged criminal enterprises go. And they are decades behind schedule greenlighting any of their other acutely-needed expansions or modernizations. GLX looks like a model of efficiency compared to how the MTA is mismanaging itself.

 

[stick n move]

Yea seattle is spending 54 BILLION on line additions and 550 million on new cars. Its outrageous. The question though is why cant we even kick the tires on a half mile tunnel for not even 1% of that that we are going to be in dire need of in short order. Im not saying match them and go for 50 billion ourselves, not at all.

If you think about it though they had their entire waterfront cutoff and a miniscule transit system. Im not sure what our total rail build out would cost in todays numbers but Id say right there or more. They had like 60 light rail cars total. We have like 150 on the Orange line. Im sure if we had to build an entire rail network itd be ungodly expensive too. So it seems to be more of the fact that theyre just catching up now along with building it in todays day n age when things are more expensive. They know that it has to get done though, so theyre doing it. I aint mad at it.

Anyways its just crazy that besides the glx using existing ROWs theres really nothing else going on. There has to be more were capable of we cant just build and build and ignore expanding transit even if the numbers may not be fun right now. We either grow it or car traffic will grind the city to a halt.

 

[Jouhou]

The seattle area has a new like 6 mile highway tunnel going through downtown, a new subway tunnel, and miles upon miles of new light rail with like 4 different lines being expanded in all directions with elevated sections, new stations, tunnels, trails, sound mitigation. Were probably talking 20+ miles of light rail going in. How the hell can we not get 1 tunnel across the short distance across the harbor, or even just under D street? What are they doing differently that allows them to do this? Theyre doing their own big dig with their own greenway to sink the elevated highway that separates the waterfront too so whats our excuse? Wtf..

Other ones I can think of are LA expanding in multiple directions, and NYC has bored a new tunnel down the whole west side. Why cant we do ANYTHING for the silver line? No red-blue like 300 yard connection, no blue to Lynn. We all know NSRL. What are they doing that were not? Were talking like 1 mile here... Its ridiculous when just 1 video of 1 line being added in Seattle is like 15 minutes to watch because it goes so far when I was trying to see whats going on there... We just have to cross from Southie to Logan lol, you could damn near hit a baseball across that shit.

They aren't doing any of that cheaply. I think the big dig traumatized multiple generations, people are hesitant to commit to any large project that could have similar ballooning costs. My childhood memories of Boston are marred by the constant construction and insane traffic created by the big dig. I wasn't driving and I remember how awful that was.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Yea seattle is spending 54 BILLION on line additions and 550 million on new cars. Its outrageous. The question though is why cant we even kick the tires on a half mile tunnel for not even 1% of that that we are going to be in dire need of in short order. Im not saying match them and go for 50 billion ourselves, not at all.

If you think about it though they had their entire waterfront cutoff and a miniscule transit system. Im not sure what our total rail build out would cost in todays numbers but Id say right there or more. They had like 60 light rail cars total. We have like 150 on the Orange line. Im sure if we had to build an entire rail network itd be ungodly expensive too. So it seems to be more of the fact that theyre just catching up now along with building it in todays day n age when things are more expensive. They know that it has to get done though, so theyre doing it. I aint mad at it.

Anyways its just crazy that besides the glx using existing ROWs theres really nothing else going on. There has to be more were capable of we cant just build and build and ignore expanding transit even if the numbers may not be fun right now. We either grow it or car traffic will grind the city to a halt.

But...like I said, Seattle is doing it with MAJOR cost blowout problems, especially with the highway tunnel project. It is not the model city to be citing for a major short-term scale-up, because their own Big Dig syndrome is brewing as a result of this and will probably cast a chill on more projects over the next 20 years as they contend with a debt service much larger than they were prepared for.

It's not enough to get a lot of projects in the pipeline. It's got to be managed relatively cleanly, too, in order to be sustainable. Seattle ended up making a lot of the same budgeting mistakes 1990's Boston did, and is going to pay accordingly.