Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Arlington said:
I don’t understand the question. I’m all for electrifying MBTA territory where high frequency, dispatch reliability, and closely spaced stops argue for electrification

SPG-BOS, even at hourly is more like Brightline, and is CSX territory. How would you justify electric? I’d only consider it after NHV-SPG and WOR-BOS have been electrified
I said that in my earlier post. Inland Route. New Haven to Boston. If anything, a 2-3 car DMU hybrid would probably fit the bill
Note that from an emission standpoint diesels can also be run on biofuels
Click to expand...
I'm sorry
 
Arlington said:
I don’t understand the question. I’m all for electrifying MBTA territory where high frequency, dispatch reliability, and closely spaced stops argue for electrification

SPG-BOS, even at hourly is more like Brightline, and is CSX territory. How would you justify electric? I’d only consider it after NHV-SPG and WOR-BOS have been electrified

Note that from an emission standpoint diesels can also be run on biofuels
Click to expand...
You understand that we need to stop filling the sky with diesel emissions? Including freight?
 
Tallguy said:
You understand that we need to stop filling the sky with diesel emissions? Including freight?
Click to expand...

The primary move we’re going to see in the next generation is one away from fossil fuels. I think @Arlington does understand that “pollution is bad … mmkay,” but his point about using biofuels rather than petroleum addresses your concern (“How long do you think we will be able to run those new diesels?”

It would be great if all modes of transportation ran on something even cleaner than biofuel diesel, but we aren't close as a society to that point. Let’s work on phasing out fossil fuels first.
 
Didnt mean to be snarky, my post was chopped.
Diesel is toast in 20 years
 
I've never understood why this thread always goes off into weird ass tangents that have nothing to do with the actual project! In no particular order:

1) Wouldn't it be better to run rail to Providence instead? Sure, aside from the fact that the railroad bridge over the Taunton River has been gone for 50 years and part of the line in Fall River is now a rail trail. There's also the problem of the RI economy being not much better than the south coast one....

2) This won't save FR/NB like people down there are expecting!!! Aside from critics of the project, who is actually saying it's going to save anything? Instead it's a win-win. The Boston area needs workers and the South coast needs access to higher paying professional jobs. But at the end of the day, residents of this area need to shit or get off the pot. As in ride the thing or risk losing it. Since it's a good half hour or more of a quicker commute than driving during rush hour, it has some appeal.

3) We should be spending money on east-west rail, NS rail link, etc instead. These projects aren't mutually exclusive, and those others have their own logistical issues completely divorced from SCR. It's a nonsensical argument against the project.
 
Rover said:
I've never understood why this thread always goes off into weird ass tangents that have nothing to do with the actual project! In no particular order:

1) Wouldn't it be better to run rail to Providence instead? Sure, aside from the fact that the railroad bridge over the Taunton River has been gone for 50 years and part of the line in Fall River is now a rail trail. There's also the problem of the RI economy being not much better than the south coast one....

2) This won't save FR/NB like people down there are expecting!!! Aside from critics of the project, who is actually saying it's going to save anything? Instead it's a win-win. The Boston area needs workers and the South coast needs access to higher paying professional jobs. But at the end of the day, residents of this area need to shit or get off the pot. As in ride the thing or risk losing it. Since it's a good half hour or more of a quicker commute than driving during rush hour, it has some appeal.

3) We should be spending money on east-west rail, NS rail link, etc instead. These projects aren't mutually exclusive, and those others have their own logistical issues completely divorced from SCR. It's a nonsensical argument against the project.
Click to expand...

As for #1, that's barely a tangent at all. That directly addresses the question of what the best transit option for the South Coast is, and the very real concern that a slow, sparse-schedule Commuter Rail, particularly a version built in a way (Phase I) that potentially undercuts a proper build (and has other problems, such as for Buzzards/Cape) both ill-serves the South Coast and harms any future efforts at better, more-valuable transit. It's not about the nuts-and-bolts of the SCR build itself, but directly related to it as a project and a service area, and by no means out-of-scope for a transit forum.

As for #2, like the previous one, it's not a discussion about the construction as such so much as the philosophy of the project, and the wisdom of doing something in a suboptimal fashion when funding for transit projects is limited. That it's a net-positive for the South Coast does not necessarily mean that it was the best use of state funds, or that it was implemented properly. Furthermore the fact that it's born limited and has a spillover impact on other potential expansion (Buzzards Bay, because of limits on the Old Colony main) means that it can't be considered in a vacuum. And I'm not knowledgeable enough, but I suspect it's not just critics hyping the project, it's presumably also the politicians pushing for its construction.

As for #3, the projects aren't mutually exclusive from a technical standpoint, but money is limited. It is reasonable to debate and argue the relative merits of various projects. An argument that SCR is an inefficient use of funds (I'm not saying that it is, just using an example) compared to other projects is the opposite of nonsensical, because it's an argument that the state should use its funds in the most efficient-beneficial way (one counterargument is that they should use them in a more equitable way).
 
There never was a Providence-Fall River-New Bedford rail route that hit all three cities. The Watuppa Branch between Fall River and New Bedford ended at Watuppa Mills, 120 feet higher in elevation than the Fall River Secondary along the river. A high-level bridge and tunnel under Fall River was proposed around 1910, primarily for the benefit of Cape Cod service.

The Watuppa Branch is largely intact (partially trail, partially active), but the Providence-Fall River route would be near-impossible to return to rail. You'd need to build a new tunnel under downtown Providence to replace the former viaduct, displace a very popular bike path with lots of grade crossings, reclaim a fragmented right-of-way with a lot of reuse, and build a new bridge into Fall River.

Any future transit is going to use I-195 at least between Providence and Fall River - whether that's express bus with some upgraded stops, light rail, or commuter rail.

1637276616338.png
 
The EGE said:
There never was a Providence-Fall River-New Bedford rail route that hit all three cities. The Watuppa Branch between Fall River and New Bedford ended at Watuppa Mills, 120 feet higher in elevation than the Fall River Secondary along the river. A high-level bridge and tunnel under Fall River was proposed around 1910, primarily for the benefit of Cape Cod service.

The Watuppa Branch is largely intact (partially trail, partially active), but the Providence-Fall River route would be near-impossible to return to rail. You'd need to build a new tunnel under downtown Providence to replace the former viaduct, displace a very popular bike path with lots of grade crossings, reclaim a fragmented right-of-way with a lot of reuse, and build a new bridge into Fall River.

Any future transit is going to use I-195 at least between Providence and Fall River - whether that's express bus with some upgraded stops, light rail, or commuter rail.

View attachment 18983
Click to expand...
I like the routes but I would have the New Bedford-Fall River route swing by UMass Dartmouth (about a third of the way from New Bedford toward Fall River and south of Route 6). That college is a central destination for a lot of younger people in the area. I went there so I know.
 
Charlie_mta said:
I like the routes but I would have the New Bedford-Fall River route swing by UMass Dartmouth (about a third of the way from New Bedford toward Fall River and south of Route 6). That college is a central destination for a lot of younger people in the area. I went there so I know.
Click to expand...

As someone who also went to UMass Dartmouth (albeit only for a semester) I certainly agree that UMass is a central destination in the area and should absolutely be served by any hypothetical New Bedford-Fall River rail service. However, it would be incredibly challenging to put a station on campus or even next to it due to the adjacent developments surrounding the campus on almost all sides. Any station geared towards UMass Dartmouth students or faculty would probably be best sited at the Faunce Corner Road grade crossing, with a shuttle bus between the station and the campus.

To get back to the discussion about SCR, here's the proposed track map for Phase II, with egregious amounts of single track:
south coast rail track map.PNG
 
Charlie_mta said:
I like the routes but I would have the New Bedford-Fall River route swing by UMass Dartmouth (about a third of the way from New Bedford toward Fall River and south of Route 6). That college is a central destination for a lot of younger people in the area. I went there so I know.
Click to expand...

themissinglink said:
As someone who also went to UMass Dartmouth (albeit only for a semester) I certainly agree that UMass is a central destination in the area and should absolutely be served by any hypothetical New Bedford-Fall River rail service. However, it would be incredibly challenging to put a station on campus or even next to it due to the adjacent developments surrounding the campus on almost all sides. Any station geared towards UMass Dartmouth students or faculty would probably be best sited at the Faunce Corner Road grade crossing, with a shuttle bus between the station and the campus.
Click to expand...

Practically impossible. The ROW by UMass Dartmouth is impossible to serve along with New Bedford without a reverse move, and cannot be used to serve Fall River. (Even if the trail was restored to rail, there's nowhere to put a station, and you'd still be stuck with a reverse move, which we know from Kingston/Plymouth practice is not acceptable in terms of quality CR service.)
 
Brattle Loop said:
Practically impossible. The ROW by UMass Dartmouth is impossible to serve along with New Bedford without a reverse move, and cannot be used to serve Fall River. (Even if the trail was restored to rail, there's nowhere to put a station, and you'd still be stuck with a reverse move, which we know from Kingston/Plymouth practice is not acceptable in terms of quality CR service.)
Click to expand...

I probably didn't do a good enough job explaining exactly what I meant, so let me clarify. I was specifically talking about a hypothetical service going between Fall River and New Bedford, not South Coast Rail. Trying to send any SCR trains down the Watuppa Branch and necessitating the reverse move that you mentioned would definitely not be a good idea.
 
themissinglink said:
I probably didn't do a good enough job explaining exactly what I meant, so let me clarify. I was specifically talking about a hypothetical service going between Fall River and New Bedford, not South Coast Rail. Trying to send any SCR trains down the Watuppa Branch and necessitating the reverse move that you mentioned would definitely not be a good idea.
Click to expand...

Ahh, okay, I get it. I was responding to two different posts at once and missed the "hypothetical" note in yours. I agree that if there was ever service between them it would make a ton of sense to get as close to the college as possible. (I don't think direct service between the two cities is likely anytime soon, but should it ever happen then serving UMass Dartmouth is a no-brainer.)
 
Brattle Loop said:
Practically impossible. The ROW by UMass Dartmouth is impossible to serve along with New Bedford without a reverse move, and cannot be used to serve Fall River. (Even if the trail was restored to rail, there's nowhere to put a station, and you'd still be stuck with a reverse move, which we know from Kingston/Plymouth practice is not acceptable in terms of quality CR service.)
Click to expand...
The development in the area is fragmented enough to allow a corridor or two to access UMass-Dartmouth. If an LRV line follows the I-195 corridor, or even if it's coming from downtown New Bedford via a dedicated median on Route 6, there's ample opportunity to make a ROW to access UMass-Dartmouth with minimal taking of homes or wetland impacts. The redline(s) are potential corridors:
51690726370_7bab480cc1_b.jpg
 
Charlie_mta said:
The development in the area is fragmented enough to allow a corridor or two to access UMass-Dartmouth. If an LRV line follows the I-195 corridor, or even if it's coming from downtown New Bedford via a dedicated median on Route 6, there's ample opportunity to make a ROW to access UMass-Dartmouth with minimal taking of homes or wetland impacts. The redline(s) are potential corridors:
51690726370_7bab480cc1_b.jpg
Click to expand...

Oh, sure, definitely possible if we're talking Reasonable and/or Crazy Transit Pitches. My comment was based on the impression (given which thread we're in) that the suggestion was to serve the campus area via existing railroad branch, which is infeasible.
 
themissinglink said:
As someone who also went to UMass Dartmouth (albeit only for a semester) I certainly agree that UMass is a central destination in the area and should absolutely be served by any hypothetical New Bedford-Fall River rail service. However, it would be incredibly challenging to put a station on campus or even next to it due to the adjacent developments surrounding the campus on almost all sides. Any station geared towards UMass Dartmouth students or faculty would probably be best sited at the Faunce Corner Road grade crossing, with a shuttle bus between the station and the campus.

To get back to the discussion about SCR, here's the proposed track map for Phase II, with egregious amounts of single track:
View attachment 18987
Click to expand...

Single track can be fine if its pre-planned with a complete schedule and passing zones at the right places (usually stations)
 
jass said:
Single track can be fine if its pre-planned with a complete schedule and passing zones at the right places (usually stations)
Click to expand...

This is true, though while I don't know how old that map is, as I recall from earlier discussion by F-Line and others, the amount (and location) of single-tracking on previous iterations of the Stoughton-Taunton SCR alignment made the schedules very brittle (to the point of at least suspicion that part of the electrification requirement was to make the schedules work on paper at all).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top