Crazy Transit Pitches

[RandomWalk]

I thought they wanted to colocate a MoW facility with the South Salem station.

 

[Longfellow]

That study is a little sad. I liked the proposals people had here of digging underground for grand junction and then using a modular station design.

 

[Hooledeli]

hello, had an idea for a blue-orange line junction at state
i wanted to understand the doability of this junction before i spend time exploring possible service patterns so i came to you all
heres my very basic mockup of how the junction could theoretically work

"cyan" is the name of a theoretical new service that comes from beyond aquarium and goes past chinatown, it would use the orange line's inbound platforms and the blue line's outbound
there is a crossover just east of the blue line platforms

 

[CheapLeak]

hello, had an idea for a blue-orange line junction at state
i wanted to understand the doability of this junction before i spend time exploring possible service patterns so i came to you all
heres my very basic mockup of how the junction could theoretically work
View attachment 52573
"cyan" is the name of a theoretical new service that comes from beyond aquarium and goes past chinatown, it would use the orange line's inbound platforms and the blue line's outbound
there is a crossover just east of the blue line platforms

I know they share car width, but do they share loading heights?

 

[Stlin]

I know they share car width, but do they share loading heights?

They're off by 3 inches - but that's within the range of adjustable air ballasts. (Which the current fleets are not equipped with - they require a visit to the shops.)

 

[cats10000]

Not sure where to put this, but here is a map of every rail line and trolleybus in Boston ever, based on maps by Alexandra Rapp.

Blue is rapid transit, Gray is non electrified mainline rail, dark green is electrified mainline rail, light green is trolleybuses, pink is streetcar tunnels, red is surface streetcars, and yellow is horsecar lines that were never electrified.

 

[CheapLeak]

Not sure where to put this, but here is a map of every rail line and trolleybus in Boston ever, based on maps by Alexandra Rapp.

Blue is rapid transit, Gray is non electrified mainline rail, dark green is electrified mainline rail, light green is trolleybuses, pink is streetcar tunnels, red is surface streetcars, and yellow is horsecar lines that were never electrified.

This is incredible. Puts my small attempt at mapping all streetcars to shame lol.

 

[as02143]

Pitch: Silver Line BRT Phase 3 - but - even cheaper

In search of bridging the missing link from SL Phase 3 BRT - SL4/5 Nubian/South End to SL1/2 Seaport/Airport (and onward to Chelsea) I was thinking that Boston and the State could make the long-desired link with a "small" tunneling project. My understanding of the Silver Line Piers Transitway is that the out-of-service loop is somewhere between E and Beach Streets under Atlantic Avenue. The pitch is to replace that loop - with a portal to the surface that "lands" right at Kneeland. There it can turn to connect to a (side or) center-running transitway along Kneeland using space from a fairly massive road diet -- 5 or 4 lanes at some places to 3 or 2.

This proposal "misses" the GL to SL connection that could make a big network difference - but - there's still a fairly decent travel market according to the BNR data for South Boston/Seaport and the Downtown, JP, Roxbury, and Mission Hill neighborhoods.

Ideally one would build a portal from Essex Street at Surface Road down to the tunnel - but it looks like such a short distance (500 feet in Google Maps) that I have a hard time believing that it would be workable given all the stuff underground there. I also don't know how the SL platforms align - my recollection was that Essex Street is probably too close/maybe just at the platforms.

 

[TheRatmeister]

My understanding of the Silver Line Piers Transitway is that the out-of-service loop is somewhere between E and Beach Streets under Atlantic Avenue. The pitch is to replace that loop - with a portal to the surface that "lands" right at Kneeland.

The loop is actually under the CAT there if I recall correctly, you'd need to use the 'hook' that comes out on Essex St. But assuming you do that I believe it would actually work.

 

[Stlin]

The loop is actually under the CAT there if I recall correctly, you'd need to use the 'hook' that comes out on Essex St. But assuming you do that I believe it would actually work.

Good timing, since I've been reading up on the original Phase 3 proposal, but the loop is actually over the CAT.

(While I'm here, anyone have a good idea of where I can track down a copy of that 2009 FTA funding report?) Never mind, I found it but it's not as useful as I thought.

 

[as02143]

Good timing, since I've been reading up on the original Phase 3 proposal, but the loop is actually over the CAT.
View attachment 53019
(While I'm here, anyone have a good idea of where I can track down a copy of that 2009 FTA funding report?) Never mind, I found it but it's not as useful as I thought.

Thanks! I guess this goes to show that I might be feasible to actually make the hard turn and pop up just at South St and Essex St. I know the east side interceptor is somewhere along South St but perhaps with the bus tunnel aka Transit way being relatively shallow, it might be possible to get up to grade fast enough and not chase the grade into the interceptor.

 

[Stlin]

Thanks! I guess this goes to show that I might be feasible to actually make the hard turn and pop up just at South St and Essex St. I know the east side interceptor is somewhere along South St but perhaps with the bus tunnel aka Transit way being relatively shallow, it might be possible to get up to grade fast enough and not chase the grade into the interceptor.

So, fun fact: per Wikipedia the general service pattern you're proposing got a full workup by the then Secretary of Transportation in 2006, after the federal grant application for phase 3 got pulled. The general routing would have used the Essex leg, built a transfer to Park and DTX using what is now the Winter St concourse probably via Lincoln & Summer, and northbound used Kneeland and Surface. I imagine that would still probably remain the best routing today.

New Silver Line plan offered, stirring critics - The Boston Globe

archive.boston.com

Since we're talking about it, my current research into phase 3 is focused on what amount of the project scope was related to the requirement that phase 1, what is now SL 4, would be routed into the transitway at Boylston to continue on to South Station and the Seaport. By 2004, under Essex to Boylston was well settled - the question of where to put the portal and how you'd route its associated tunnel to Boylston wasn't. I'm fully aware of the legacy of "equal or better," but... That was a commitment to getting downtown. Seaport wasn't a thing in 87, and was barely a thing in 2006. what needs to happen to make it ok for the T to just ... Not connect SLs 4&5 to 1-3 as a OSR, and instead make it a transfer to a Greenified SL2? I have my thoughts on this, which I'll need to flesh out in a future post.

 

[TheRatmeister]

This is honestly so much of a crackpot idea that I'm not sure where it belongs, it's originally somewhat based on a bad idea from someone who is extremely anti-Green Line on Reddit. I present to you GLRC but Blue Line:

A new flying Y junction would connect the Blue Line to the Tremont St subway, taking over the outer tracks through Boylston and through a new Washington St subway, continuing down to Mattapan. Is this a good idea? Probably not. Is it interesting? Definitely yes.

 

[bigeman312]

This is honestly so much of a crackpot idea that I'm not sure where it belongs, it's originally somewhat based on a bad idea from someone who is extremely anti-Green Line on Reddit. I present to you GLRC but Blue Line:
View attachment 53314
A new flying Y junction would connect the Blue Line to the Tremont St subway, taking over the outer tracks through Boylston and through a new Washington St subway, continuing down to Mattapan. Is this a good idea? Probably not. Is it interesting? Definitely yes.

I like the Oak Square restoration of Green Line service. I like the Blue Line extensions to Charles and Salem. I can get behind the D-E interlining. I like that there is rapid transit to Mattapan. The rest of it is highly questionable, though.

 

[TheRatmeister]

I like the Oak Square restoration of Green Line service. I like the Blue Line extensions to Charles and Salem. I can get behind the D-E interlining. I like that there is rapid transit to Mattapan. The rest of it is highly questionable, though.

Those are really just side notes. The Blue Line to Boylston is the main idea, and you're absolutely right that it's highly questionable. A less questionable version might be something like doing GLRC but sending the Arborway branch up through Longwood/Fenway, then using high floor vehicles on Huntington/GLX/D branches, but that leaves you stuck with high floor vehicles on a Washington St route which could be fine or even preferable for the first section to Nubian but less great once you're paralleling the Fairmount Line and more frequent stops are better.

 

[TheRatmeister]

So, the big issue with adding more Capeflyer service is that it requires using the lift bridge more, which the ACoE won't allow. So what if we don't do that, and build a rail connection over one of the road bridges instead? Running from either the Kingston or Middleborough/Lakeville lines, it would follow Rt 3/495 respectively before crossing over into the cape and then... I haven't crayoned that part out yet. But it seems like going for the Northern route would be easier.

 

[Charlie_mta]

So what if we don't do that, and build a rail connection over one of the road bridges instead?

I'm guessing the road bridge grades over the Cape Cod Canal might be too steep for rail, but that would need to be verified. My vote would be to just build a high level fixed span rail bridge. The approaches would be long to accommodate rail grade maximums, but c'est la vie.

 

[TheRatmeister]

My vote would be to just build a high level fixed span rail bridge. The approaches would be long to accommodate rail grade maximums, but c'est la vie.

Right, silly FRA rules strike again. Yeah at that point just build a rail bridge over the current lift bridge.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Right, silly FRA rules strike again. Yeah at that point just build a rail bridge over the current lift bridge.

Rail Grade Maximums are not exactly just "silly FRA rules". They also reflect real world physics. Steel on steel is not known for its great traction and stopping resistance on grades.

 

[jbray]

Since we're here:

- The span is 135ft when lifted (just like the other two bridges) although that is above high tide, not the current rail tracks so there is a few feet of leeway here but I'm going to napkin to 135Ft for ease.

- Main Ave to the end of the station platform at Buzzards Bay is 1.91mi according to Google ruler so we're looking at a 1.34% grade. Going all the way to Depot Street in East Wareham is 3.3mi or 0.78% grade. The main issue is some encroachment of the ROW where it appears that they used some of it to build a road that now has housing on it (Railroad Ave in East Wareham). There may not be enough room for an embankment or viaduct especially if we want to provision for double tracking.

Much tougher is Cape side. First, there's a switch and I'm not sure what the recommendation is for it being in the same location just 135ft up but let's assume that's fine.

Bourne Bridge is the first real obstacle that's basically non-negotiable and that's 1.41mi according to our favorite online map ruler so a 1.81% grade to the Rail bridge switch. Not great for freight.

The Falmouth Branch has to at least go to Worcester Ave near Chester Park in the Monument Beach area to match being 1.46mi away for 1.75% as a grade but you could go much further with something like Valley Bars Circle in the Little Bay Conservation Area being 2.54mi at a hair over 1% grade.