Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[Koopzilla24]

Ah, very nice. I've never heard the term "plantation" used in this way when in New England (as in, here as far as I have seen it is refers to established farming rather than large land tracts owned by one family + staffed by slave labor). Will have to dig into this.

The full official name of the state of Rhode Island wasn't what it was until 2020 for no reason. Despite being the first to pass an anti-slavery law in 1652, it wasn't enforced and by 1755 10% of the colony's population was slaves.

Uhhh to tie it back to SCR, what is Fall River today was part of Providence Plantations so logically we should restore the mostly still extant railway from Fall River to Newport and run a similar seasonal tourism service as the Cape Flyer but to Newport or something idk

 

[riptide]

The full official name of the state of Rhode Island wasn't what it was until 2020 for no reason. Despite being the first to pass an anti-slavery law in 1652, it wasn't enforced and by 1755 10% of the colony's population was slaves.

Today’s Narragansett and South Kingstown began as plantations. New England soil being what it is, they mostly focused on animal husbandry and all that comes with it (hay, dairy, etc), but some agricultural crops like corn were grown. After about 75 years, the planter class started turning to other activities, like moneylending, to sustain and grow their wealth.

Uhhh to tie it back to SCR, what is Fall River today was part of Providence Plantations so logically we should restore the mostly still extant railway from Fall River to Newport and run a similar seasonal tourism service as the Cape Flyer but to Newport or something idk

I think there’s definitely seasonal demand for a train from Boston to Newport. Maybe in the distant future if/when SCR Phase II ever happens, there could be year-round service on that corridor in some form or another. Rhode Island studied a Fall River to Newport rail shuttle 20 years ago with a cross platform transfer onto commuter rail at Battleship Cove.

 

[Stlin]

The full official name of the state of Rhode Island wasn't what it was until 2020 for no reason. Despite being the first to pass an anti-slavery law in 1652, it wasn't enforced and by 1755 10% of the colony's population was slaves.

Uhhh to tie it back to SCR, what is Fall River today was part of Providence Plantations so logically we should restore the mostly still extant railway from Fall River to Newport and run a similar seasonal tourism service as the Cape Flyer but to Newport or something idk

I'm fairly sure that the name Providence Plantations was innocuous for its time; at the time of its naming by Roger Williams RI only had something like 500 non-native American inhabitants, and it was under him that they passed that antislavery law in 1652. Frankly, Newport, the Rhode Island (Aquidneck Island) part of the name, was a key part of the Triangle Trade, as I remember reading that something like ⅔ of the ships involved in the transatlantic slave trade called at Newport on their way to Africa. That said, even after 1755 a huge portion of RI's wealth derived from slavery and the trade, importing sugar and molasses from the Caribbean, exporting rum. At least some of the Newport estates were a product of that wealth.

Anyways - The T posted the slides from its meeting in Taunton a couple of weeks ago. Included are new photos of East Taunton Station, and a slide describing the new schedule. Given that they're qualifying all 32 trips as direct service every 70 minutes regardless of direction of travel (with a 15/17 split), I assume the FR/NB branch schedules would be offset to achieve meets at East Taunton with the shuttles for cross platform transfers.

 

[JeffDowntown]

I'm fairly sure that the name Providence Plantations was innocuous for its time; at the time of its naming by Roger Williams RI only had something like 500 non-native American inhabitants, and it was under him that they passed that antislavery law in 1652. Frankly, Newport, the Rhode Island (Aquidneck Island) part of the name, was a key part of the Triangle Trade, as I remember reading that something like ⅔ of the ships involved in the transatlantic slave trade called at Newport on their way to Africa. That said, even after 1755 a huge portion of RI's wealth derived from slavery and the trade, importing sugar and molasses from the Caribbean, exporting rum. At least some of the Newport estates were a product of that wealth.

Anyways - The T posted the slides from its meeting in Taunton a couple of weeks ago. Included are new photos of East Taunton Station, and a slide describing the new schedule. Given that they're qualifying all 32 trips as direct service every 70 minutes regardless of direction of travel (with a 15/17 split), I assume the FR/NB branch schedules would be offset to achieve meets at East Taunton with the shuttles for cross platform transfers.
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The plantation reference in Rhode Island's name was not an accident.

The "Narragansett Planters" were a set of 25-30 large plantations in Washington County (South County) Rhode Island, that fed food resources to the triangle traders in Newport (some of whom did simpler north-south packet runs, not the full triangle trade). In the mid-18th century an estimated 15-25% of the population of South County was enslaved.

Slavery in Southern Rhode Island — South County History Center

The Center's new online exhibit of Ernest Hamlin Baker's 1939 mural "The Economic Activities of the Narragansett Planters" explores the history of slavery and the colonial economy in southern Rhode Island, and how our knowledge of that period has changed since the artist conducted his rese

southcountyhistorycenter.org

 

[FK4]

Today’s Narragansett and South Kingstown began as plantations. New England soil being what it is, they mostly focused on animal husbandry and all that comes with it (hay, dairy, etc), but some agricultural crops like corn were grown. After about 75 years, the planter class started turning to other activities, like moneylending, to sustain and grow their wealth.




I think there’s definitely seasonal demand for a train from Boston to Newport. Maybe in the distant future if/when SCR Phase II ever happens, there could be year-round service on that corridor in some form or another. Rhode Island studied a Fall River to Newport rail shuttle 20 years ago with a cross platform transfer onto commuter rail at Battleship Cove.

I can’t speak to what Jeff is referring to, but I can tell you without any ambiguity that the word plantation, “Rhode Island and Providence plantations“, just like with “Plymouth plantation“, referred to a colonial settlement, and not to a large agricultural estate… And that furthermore, for the most part (and until today, I assumed in every instance), that term meant something very different in New England than it did in the southern colonies.

 

[FK4]

The plantation reference in Rhode Island's name was not an accident.

The "Narragansett Planters" were a set of 25-30 large plantations in Washington County (South County) Rhode Island, that fed food resources to the triangle traders in Newport (some of whom did simpler north-south packet runs, not the full triangle trade). In the mid-18th century an estimated 15-25% of the population of South County was enslaved.

Slavery in Southern Rhode Island — South County History Center

The Center's new online exhibit of Ernest Hamlin Baker's 1939 mural "The Economic Activities of the Narragansett Planters" explores the history of slavery and the colonial economy in southern Rhode Island, and how our knowledge of that period has changed since the artist conducted his rese

southcountyhistorycenter.org

See my other post. You are conflating the word “plantation“ with slavery. The word never implied slavery, and the only instance where that term did imply this was in the American south. There’s no arguing that slavery existed up here, but it’s important to understand that the term “plantation” in all of the New England plantations (perhaps, with a few rare exceptions in the book you mentioned) does not imply the existence of slavery or agricultural work at all. it refers to the “planting” of towns and colonies—of people. It was only later that the term acquired the negative and now essentially infamous connotation which people don’t realize is not an accurate reflection of what this term meant historically at all.

 

[thepixelnation]

See my other post. You are conflating the word “plantation“ with slavery. The word never implied slavery, and the only instance where that term did imply this was in the American south. There’s no arguing that slavery existed up here, but it’s important to understand that the term “plantation” in all of the New England plantations (perhaps, with a few rare exceptions in the book you mentioned) does not imply the existence of slavery or agricultural work at all. it refers to the “planting” of towns and colonies—of people. It was only later that the term acquired the negative and now essentially infamous connotation which people don’t realize is not an accurate reflection of what this term meant historically at all.

It would be more apt to conflate the word "plantation" with colonialism than slavery. English first started using plantations with the colonization of Ireland and worked as a means to de-gaelicize the Irish living there. Plantations were a major tool of English colonialism by allowing a community of English men & women to live and reproduce, rather than the French model of trading posts or the Spanish model of Spanish men marrying Native women.

Sorry for this whole diversion! Should have said titled nobility. I'm just happy there wasn't an Earl of Dorchester like there was a Baron of Baltimore. and I forgot the house of burgesses was an elected office.

Maybe we should have a MBTA Baron though...

 

[thepixelnation]

I think there’s definitely seasonal demand for a train from Boston to Newport. Maybe in the distant future if/when SCR Phase II ever happens, there could be year-round service on that corridor in some form or another. Rhode Island studied a Fall River to Newport rail shuttle 20 years ago with a cross platform transfer onto commuter rail at Battleship Cove.

I love this idea. Newport accessibility by rail would be the next big step in South Coast construction I would think. Would make Fall River more of a destination (platform transfer at Battleship Cove would be perfect for tourists), and would allow Rhode Island rail to become more of a network than a strip of stations between MA and CT. Allowing Portsmouth and Newport rail access to Providence and Boston would do wonders to increase connectivity in the region.

 

[Koopzilla24]

I think there’s definitely seasonal demand for a train from Boston to Newport. Maybe in the distant future if/when SCR Phase II ever happens, there could be year-round service on that corridor in some form or another. Rhode Island studied a Fall River to Newport rail shuttle 20 years ago with a cross platform transfer onto commuter rail at Battleship Cove.

There's a YouTube railfan who's been documenting the progress on the restoration of the Newport Railway between the transit center and Pell Bridge alongside rail-with-trail. They have I think a 40-tonner and 2 RDCs already there and operational. If they had funding they could probably easily run an island shuttle every like 30min

 

[themissinglink]

It really sucks that Battleship Cove station was postponed to Phase II, and who knows if Phase II is even still happening at this point. I know Battleship Cove wasn't projected to be a high-ridership station, but it still would've been a nice terminus since it's so close to Downtown Fall River (compared to Fall River Depot).

Battleship Cove station should be built regardless of whether or not Phase II is happening.

 

[TheRatmeister]

and who knows if Phase II is even still happening at this point

I think deep down we all know.

 

[themissinglink]

I think deep down we all know.

Yeah, I don't expect to see Phase II actually happen. But I didn't want to definitively say "it's not gonna happen" in an absolutist way since there's always a small chance of it happening...

But it does suck that Phase II probably won't happen. Even though it would be outrageously expensive, Phase II would result in significantly shorter travel times and much better frequencies. Plus the other station in Taunton (on Dean Street) would be so much better than East Taunton, which is far from downtown Taunton and exclusively a park-and-ride station.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

It really sucks that Battleship Cove station was postponed to Phase II, and who knows if Phase II is even still happening at this point. I know Battleship Cove wasn't projected to be a high-ridership station, but it still would've been a nice terminus since it's so close to Downtown Fall River (compared to Fall River Depot).

Battleship Cove station should be built regardless of whether or not Phase II is happening.

The 2013 FEIR for Phase II predicted 240 daily boardings at Battleship Cove vs. 840 at Fall River Depot, or about 28% of FR Depot's ridership. That was third-worst on the line after Easton Village (150) and Freetown (180). The 2018 FEIR for Phase I reduced the Fall River Depot boardings to 390, while Freetown's went down to 60. Assuming 28% of FR Depot's ridership, Battleship Cove under Phase I would board 109. Assuming the 133% of Freetown's boardings (the Phase II ratio), Battleship Cove would board 78.

It's not going to be worth doing for pathetic Phase I frequencies.

 

[TheRatmeister]

Yeah, I don't expect to see Phase II actually happen. But I didn't want to definitively say "it's not gonna happen" in an absolutist way since there's always a small chance of it happening...

But it does suck that Phase II probably won't happen. Even though it would be outrageously expensive, Phase II would result in significantly shorter travel times and much better frequencies. Plus the other station in Taunton (on Dean Street) would be so much better than East Taunton, which is far from downtown Taunton and exclusively a park-and-ride station.

Never say never of course, but I think we can reasonably say with very high certainty that basically no matter what at this point any opening would probably be around 2040 or later, so for any time period really worth talking about and experiencing as a person rather than a transit enthusiast, it's not happening.

 

[eber]

There's a YouTube railfan who's been documenting the progress on the restoration of the Newport Railway between the transit center and Pell Bridge alongside rail-with-trail. They have I think a 40-tonner and 2 RDCs already there and operational. If they had funding they could probably easily run an island shuttle every like 30min

Is it this guy? Holy cow this is quite the playlist for 5 months of content. I would really love a Newport Rail Connection. I've tried to get to Newport, RI by public transit and the only time friends or I were able to do it well was with the Providence->Newport ferry in the summer, but you need to take the bus (or shuttle) or an uber to the ferry (30 minute walk from the train station).

 

[bigeman312]

Is it this guy? Holy cow this is quite the playlist for 5 months of content. I would really love a Newport Rail Connection. I've tried to get to Newport, RI by public transit and the only time friends or I were able to do it well was with the Providence->Newport ferry in the summer, but you need to take the bus (or shuttle) or an uber to the ferry (30 minute walk from the train station).

I do the trip to Newport/Middletown from Boston via mass transit regularly.

The fastest way to do it is Amtrak to Providence, walk to Kennedy Plaza, 60 bus to the island.

The most enjoyable way to do it is Amtrak to Providence, bike to the ferry, ferry to Newport.

The cheapest and most frequent trip is Commuter Rail to Providence, walk to Kennedy Plaza, 60 bus to the island.

All are viable. Commuter Rail directly to Newport via Stoughton and Fall River would be way better, though.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

All are viable. Commuter Rail directly to Newport via Stoughton and Fall River would be way better, though.

It's a loooong schedule. The NYNH&H took 2:05 for a Boston-Newport run in 1930. That's well beyond the comfort threshold for Commuter Rail travel. Fall River-Newport alone took 40 minutes, so project that on top of the 75-78 minutes that the Phase II FEIR projected and with fewer stops you're still scraping 2 hours. Ridership's not going to be good at those travel times.

I think Newport is something you trial with a Newport Flyer in-season experiment (though it might require Phase II because of limited capacity). Do an express run to Fall River, then an extension on 30 MPH unsignaled track from FR Depot to Newport. It's going to have to prove its bona fides the same way the Cape has.

 

[thepixelnation]

It's a loooong schedule. The NYNH&H took 2:05 for a Boston-Newport run in 1930. That's well beyond the comfort threshold for Commuter Rail travel. Fall River-Newport alone took 40 minutes, so project that on top of the 75-78 minutes that the Phase II FEIR projected and with fewer stops you're still scraping 2 hours. Ridership's not going to be good at those travel times.

Yeah I think having a Newport-Fall River route, connection at a Fall River/Battleship Cove station that connects to Boston would probably make the most sense.

 

[riptide]

It's a loooong schedule. The NYNH&H took 2:05 for a Boston-Newport run in 1930. That's well beyond the comfort threshold for Commuter Rail travel. Fall River-Newport alone took 40 minutes, so project that on top of the 75-78 minutes that the Phase II FEIR projected and with fewer stops you're still scraping 2 hours. Ridership's not going to be good at those travel times.

I think Newport is something you trial with a Newport Flyer in-season experiment (though it might require Phase II because of limited capacity). Do an express run to Fall River, then an extension on 30 MPH unsignaled track from FR Depot to Newport. It's going to have to prove its bona fides the same way the Cape has.

The study I mentioned a few posts ago, the
2002 Aquidneck Island Rail Study, estimated the Newport-Fall River segment would take about 30 minutes with 5 intermediate stops. It was assuming track would be maintained to Class 3/60mph standards, and diesel rolling stock would be used. In a SCR Phase II world, that would probably work out somewhere around 1:45 each way once you bake in the transfer at Fall River. Ridership projections from that era (p.42-43) were in the range of 144,000-165,000 annually for all trips within that Newport-Fall River corridor. Weekday trips to/from Boston were estimated at 154.

Makes sense to begin as a Newport Flyer summer service. The 2002 study projected 576 daily visitor trips through the corridor on weekends, which would probably push a little higher if you removed the cross-platform transfer penalty and ran a train straight from Boston.

 

[kmp1284]

Makes sense to begin as a Newport Flyer summer service. The 2002 study projected 576 daily visitor trips through the corridor on weekends, which would probably push a little higher if you removed the cross-platform transfer penalty and ran a train straight from Boston.

The last thing anyone who actually lives in or visits Newport regularly wants is more day trippers waddling up and down the sidewalks debating between the t-shirt or the refrigerator magnet to commemorate their visit.