Roads and Highways General Development Thread


That is more or less what Ari Ofsevit was proposing but with the use of an at grade intersection. Blue in this case refers to the proposed bike overpass

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What I don't get is why the community has to be the ones to come up with this stuff. These people have degrees and are in theory working on this 8hr/day - they should be chomping at the bit to come up with something innovative that people actually want. It would probably win them more work as well. Instead they seem determined to come up with something nobody is happy with, to be the "adults in the room", etc.
 

That is more or less what Ari Ofsevit was proposing but with the use of an at grade intersection. Blue in this case refers to the proposed bike overpass

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What I don't get is why the community has to be the ones to come up with this stuff. These people have degrees and are in theory working on this 8hr/day - they should be chomping at the bit to come up with something innovative that people actually want. It would probably win them more work as well. Instead they seem determined to come up with something nobody is happy with, to be the "adults in the room", etc.
I think the answer is "car brain". When you think your only job is to move the most cars, you don't think of things like a bike overpass.
 
I think the answer is "car brain". When you think your only job is to move the most cars, you don't think of things like a bike overpass.
It's also that some community members are not trying to come up with a solution that works for everyone, just one that works for them and their specific cause.

I'm not being dismissive of that - that's how you get creative solutions that someone not laser-focused on that particular mode or connection wouldn't think of. Ari's going to come up with some creative bike solutions because he's focused on making the bikes work.

Beyond that, as someone who has done a lot of sketching of intersection improvements myself, I think that people who spend every day using and living next to something - maybe for decades - will be (a) more intimately familiar and (b) more motivated than engineers, planners, and designers who bounce all around the state (or states). That's just the nature of the profession.

What I can guarantee you is that the people who design these things are not obsessing over moving the most cars, at least as a general statement (in Massachusetts). Maybe some individuals/offices do, but the profession is all about person-throughput, mode shift, and safety at this point. That's been the priority of every project team I've ever worked on, and it's also MassDOT's official policy. One may not like the way things are ultimately designed, but I can attest that moving more cars or building more capacity for them is never the focus.
 
I think that is correct at least in terms of their stated goals, that they do want to move the most people not necessarily cars-only, and view decreasing capacity or keeping capacity the same as a non-starter. However:

We generally are allowed as a society to ask for and receive things that are inefficient and against expert advice. Think: rent control, Prop 2.5, mortgage interest tax deduction, the low gas tax, basically everything related to zoning -- these things are "bad" and we know that, but we want them anyway because they either protect the in group or provide a subsidy to a certain lifestyle people want to have. EVEN IF they make the system run less efficiently.

I believe that we deserve to be that in-group here. If MassDOT presents four options, they should have present one option that they say, we believe that this will create a traffic jam, however, it's the solution that the community/bike people want. And if enough people support it, they should hold their noses and build that plan. Even if the "Experts" say no. It makes no sense that they submitted 4 versions of the same cross section, just with pieces tweaked. They want to build a nice 500 apt tower in Davis, with loads of affordable housing in it, helping out a popular music venue--and we are going to kill the plan because the people with the loudest voices stopped it. Why don't we have this voice with transit planning? This is the only part of our govt that gets to say, "No, we know what's best for you, sorry."

It's also that some community members are not trying to come up with a solution that works for everyone, just one that works for them and their specific cause.
Fair for Ari, but the long one linked in my post makes a pretty persuasive argument about traffic counts - same with the analysis that NEU civil eng. professor did. I think there are some pretty good arguments floating around that MassDOT's model of how much increasing lane capacity will help is pretty deeply flawed.
 
Fair for Ari, but the long one linked in my post makes a pretty persuasive argument about traffic counts - same with the analysis that NEU civil eng. professor did. I think there are some pretty good arguments floating around that MassDOT's model of how much increasing lane capacity will help is pretty deeply flawed.
Oh, totally. I wasn't talking about that one, which was incredibly comprehensive.
 
MassDOT, like any other DOT, Federal or State, obviously has an embedded inertia many decades old that is heavily roadway focused. It is in their road design standard drawings and specs, and in their organizational culture. For a long time I worked as a civil engineer for the US Forest Service, who's philosophy was "lay lightly on the land" for the roads built through their forests. So, there I learned and practiced a good context sensitive design philosophy. Then I transferred to FHWA. A great agency, but one rooted in a highway design mentality, with wider roadways, a wider footprint, more sweeping alignments, etc. But they did recognize and tap my experience designing less obtrusive roads by having me work on designing roads in National Parks. I designed a lot of very context sensitive road projects that placed pedestrians, bicyclists, and a National Park's cultural context at a greater value than moving the maximum volume of car traffic. I was also involved on a lot of non-Park road projects in which I worked with the public to come up with context sensitive solutions to get projects moving again that were stalled by public opposition and court injunctions.
So, yes, agencies do have a culture, and MassDOT definitely has an auto-oriented one, carried out by its designers doing what the agency has been doing for many decades. A lot of insistent and creative input from the public is required to counter that organizational inertia. And, having some agency employees with a more multi-use perspective helps a lot as well.
 
I think there are some pretty good arguments floating around that MassDOT's model of how much increasing lane capacity will help is pretty deeply flawed.
Transportation demand modelling is an unreliable and pseudo-scientific field at best and astrology at worst. It's deferred to so much because it gives a veneer of quantitive/technocratic backing in a profession that is deeply, deeply self conscious about justifying their decision making in ways that make them seem unideological and a-political despite it being inherently political in the sense that it is all about balancing trade-offs with competing interests.
 
MassDOT, like any other DOT, Federal or State, obviously has an embedded inertia many decades old that is heavily roadway focused. It is in their road design standard drawings and specs, and in their organizational culture. For a long time I worked as a civil engineer for the US Forest Service, who's philosophy was "lay lightly on the land" for the roads built through their forests. So, there I learned and practiced a good context sensitive design philosophy. Then I transferred to FHWA. A great agency, but one rooted in a highway design mentality, with wider roadways, a wider footprint, more sweeping alignments, etc. But they did recognize and tap my experience designing less obtrusive roads by having me work on designing roads in National Parks. I designed a lot of very context sensitive road projects that placed pedestrians, bicyclists, and a National Park's cultural context at a greater value than moving the maximum volume of car traffic. I was also involved on a lot of non-Park road projects in which I worked with the public to come up with context sensitive solutions to get projects moving again that were stalled by public opposition and court injunctions.
So, yes, agencies do have a culture, and MassDOT definitely has an auto-oriented one, carried out by its designers doing what the agency has been doing for many decades. A lot of insistent and creative input from the public is required to counter that organizational inertia. And, having some agency employees with a more multi-use perspective helps a lot as well.
I appreciate your experience, but the culture of FHWA in prior decades is just not all that relevant to the culture of MassDOT today. Without being too open about it, I'm pretty familiar with that culture and the policies and philosophies that pervade the agency. I can't speak for every person or working group, but it simply is not a car-first agency, and hasn't ever been, since it was created with a multimodal mandate in 2009.
 
I appreciate your experience, but the culture of FHWA in prior decades is just not all that relevant to the culture of MassDOT today. Without being too open about it, I'm pretty familiar with that culture and the policies and philosophies that pervade the agency. I can't speak for every person or working group, but it simply is not a car-first agency, and hasn't ever been, since it was created with a multimodal mandate in 2009.
Looking at recent preliminary designs for major MassDOT projects, it's a mixed bag. The Rte. 16/Fellsway Wellington Circle redo proposal looks to be a sea of asphalt highway lanes, the Morrisey Blvd proposals look like an expressway, the initial designs for the Reid overpass project are a multi-lane sea of asphalt (but the new Alternative C design looks a lot better thanks to public input), and the Bowker overpass project preserved an elevated expressway through a prime segment of the Emerald Necklace. All of the above projects of course have multi-use paths and sidewalks, but still too many traffic lanes. On the plus side, the latest Rutherford Ave concept looks great, as does the grounding of the McGrath Hwy overpass. So, MassDOT does have a ways to go yet in shedding its autocentric mindset. It will take continued public input and ideas (such as Alternative C for the Reid overpass) to move that change along.
 
Updated preliminary designs for Concord Rotary were shared with Concord local officials on Monday: options 1 & 2 are just updated versions of the ~2003 proposals, MassDOT apparently not keen on the at-grade option.

Personally I like option 1, if they shorten some of those ramps and adjust lane counts... Some of those movements don't seem to require that much queue space.
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Edit: missed including link to Concord Bridge:
 
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Updated preliminary designs for Concord Rotary were shared with Concord local officials on Monday: options 1 & 2 are just updated versions of the ~2003 proposals, MassDOT apparently not keen on the at-grade option.

Personally I like option 1, if they shorten some of those ramps and adjust lane counts... Some of those movements don't seem to require that much queue space.

All of those seem too busy to me.
 
Updated preliminary designs for Concord Rotary were shared with Concord local officials on Monday: options 1 & 2 are just updated versions of the ~2003 proposals, MassDOT apparently not keen on the at-grade option.

Personally I like option 1, if they shorten some of those ramps and adjust lane counts... Some of those movements don't seem to require that much queue space.
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The third option, the diverging diamond interchange, would probably have the best traffic flow and non-vehicle experience. But I don't know whether Massachusetts drivers could wrap their head around the DDI.
 
The article also includes an image of work on the Baker Ave/Elm St intersection.

Question: what about the induced demand, if the natural bottleneck of the rotary is removed? Is MassDOT contemplating that?
 
What's the proposed budget here? My hot-take about the Concord Rotary is that funding put towards it would be much better spent on Fitchburg Line improvements. When you're not going during rush hour the Concord Rotary is totally fine, the huge backups pretty much exclusively happen during peak commuting hours.
 
What's the proposed budget here? My hot-take about the Concord Rotary is that funding put towards it would be much better spent on Fitchburg Line improvements. When you're not going during rush hour the Concord Rotary is totally fine, the huge backups pretty much exclusively happen during peak commuting hours.
I think a bigger part of the justification is the accident rate at the rotary -- over 50 accidents per year. It is the most dangerous location on Route 2.
 
What's the proposed budget here? My hot-take about the Concord Rotary is that funding put towards it would be much better spent on Fitchburg Line improvements. When you're not going during rush hour the Concord Rotary is totally fine, the huge backups pretty much exclusively happen during peak commuting hours.
My related hot take is that the highest value per dollar investment for the Route 2 corridor is rebuilding Porter’s Commuter Rail station with full high level platforms. So much time savings to/from Boston by lowering the massive Porter dwell times.
 
I suspect this project will lead to pressure to close the various intersections between the rotary and the 111 exit.

At the very least, the Taylor Rd light might get replaced with a bridge over the local street. It’s been a magnet for collisions for decades. Local traffic would shift to the nearby 27 interchange.
 
How about some small roundabouts at the entrance and exit ramps instead of so many signalized intersections? I've seen MassDOT do this elsewhere and it works great. It often means you don't need as many lanes.
 
How about some small roundabouts at the entrance and exit ramps instead of so many signalized intersections? I've seen MassDOT do this elsewhere and it works great. It often means you don't need as many lanes.
That’s probably not a bad idea.

I personally like the diamond interchange. It’s safer and more practical. At grade will just create more of a logistical nightmare down the line. The problem is that we’re trying to undo the damage that decades of shitty NIMBY planning put Massachusetts in. We need to get away from Option 3.
 

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