[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I don't think nimbies are running the show. There are barely any that are involved in the dialog down there. Maybe a group of residents from Harbor Towers or some of the area wharves. Not much of a political bloc.

On another note, Chapter 91 was amended/superseded over the past few years by a Downtown Municipal Harbor Plan. Same goes for Chapter 91 in the Seaport/Fort Point. Chapter 91 is barely enforced by the State, violated frequently by developers, and has even been trumped by variances in State Transportation Bond bills. Chapter 91 is essentially a paper tiger at this point.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Everyone also seems to forget that the state's Chapter 91 law, which makes the BRA/zoning process look like child's play, caps the height on the site at 155 feet. You can't blame for the Mayor for a state law that's been on the books since long since he was elected Mayor. This is just the media trying to cook up a story so they can sell papers but they ignore the facts.
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Chapter 91 was originally intended to ensure public access to the waterfront. So, for instance, a new development wouldn't inhibit a clammer from harvesting mussels at the edge of the harbor. It's one of the reasons for the beautiful arch in the Boston Harbor hotel (and no doubt part of the rationale behind Chiofaro's two towers with public access between). It's not as insurmountable as Greenway Guy thinks (for examples, see: Atlantic Wharf, the Harbor Towers, International Place, The Federal Reserve, etc.).

EDIT, Sicilian beat me to the punch:
Chapter 91 is essentially a paper tiger at this point.
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
Everyone who has posted on McGrory's column seems to forget that Don Chiafaro stated public a couple months ago that he DID NOT have the money to build this project. He can't create a single job or a dime of new tax revenue without the money, and he said at a public meeting that he didn't have the money.
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Chiofaro can get financing in this day and age only if he pre-sells much of his project through a big commercial lease.

How many empty lots in downtown Boston and along the Harbor are home to proposed projects, already fully permitted and approved, and just sitting there. Nobody could find a tenant willing to go into a tower at Columbus Center, which had 600,000 sq ft of office space. If they had, the project would not have been abandoned with a supposed sunk cost of $125 million.

Chiofaro wants to build 1.5 million sq ft. He probably needs for somebody like a Wellington to come in and take 600,000 - 700,000 sq ft. (Wellington's lease at Russia Wharf is 450,000 sq ft.) Don's first order of business though should be to fina a tenant(s) to take the 350,000 sq ft in IP that Ropes and Gray is vacating this year.

As for Chiofaro overpaying: in 2005 Fallon bought 21 acres at Fan Pier for $115 million. Chiofaro paid $155 million for his 1.32 acres in 2007. True, Don gets a garage.
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Here's a link to the condos for sale at Harbor Towers.

http://www.lrgboston.com/harbor-towers-condos

Roughly, I'd say most HT condos are going for average $650 a sq ft. So compared to Harbor Towers, for a brand new building, same views, more traffic and crowd noise, fewer amenities (e.g., swimming pool) Don is probably thinking in the neighborhood of $1,400 -- $1,500 a sq ft. (Mandarin Oriental condo currently on the market is $1,700+ a sq ft.) How many can he sell at that sq ft price when someone can live right next door for half or less?
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stellarfun said:
As for Chiofaro overpaying: in 2005 Fallon bought 21 acres at Fan Pier for $115 million. Chiofaro paid $155 million for his 1.32 acres in 2007. True, Don gets a garage.
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I see this deal a little different then you. I think Chiofaro might have ended up with the better deal believe it or not.

I'm thinking he bought the location. Fan Pier is finished if they can't find a blue chip tenant. Chiofaro has the Greenway to work with which has much better tenant value.

If the Greenway evolves overtime, this could really be like the richest strip of skyscrapers in the country if Boston can get it's act together.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
I see this deal a little different then you. I think Chiofaro might have ended up with the better deal believe it or not.

I'm thinking he bought the location. Fan Pier is finished if they can't find a blue chip tenant. Chiofaro has the Greenway to work with which has much better tenant value.

If the Greenway evolves overtime, this could really be like the richest strip of skyscrapers in the country if Boston can get it's act together.
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Applying the same logic you do to Fallon, Chiofaro is finished if he can't find a tenant for a building that he has yet to build.

Chiofaro's problem is that the number of corporate HQ of big Boston-based companies who are looking for trophy space now or in the future is ZERO. There is a certain developer, as friendly with the mayor as Don is not, who concedes he can't find anyone willing to lease in the trophy space building -- much smaller than the Harbor Garage project -- that he wants to build on the SCL site.

If my surmising is right, Chiofaro has a big balloon payment on an $85 million note coming due in 2012 or so. What do you think the odds are that he defaults on that note?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I wouldn't exactly call the SCL proposal a trophy space.

I would call the mayor a buffoon.

I would expect city government to have enough foresight to plan during the recession for future growth.

I would expect Chiofaro to do everything in his power to prepare a plan for the site that would be a reasonable compromise. I don't mind 410', but I'd prefer something closer to 500'. I would also expect Chiofaro to pursue all possible leads that could gain him a primary tenant in the future, to provide financial credibility to the project.

I would expect Menino to get voted out in the next election.

Should I expect any of this? Probably not.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Anyone who says Chapter 91 is a "paper tiger" has no idea....ask any developer in Boston. And just because the law dates back to 1866 doesn't mean it's antiquated. The 155' height limit dates to about 1990 (note: before Tom Menino was mayor), and was partially intended to avoid catastrophes like Harbor Towers from ever happening again....right? Right. Good dialogue though!
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
Anyone who says Chapter 91 is a "paper tiger" has no idea....ask any developer in Boston. And just because the law dates back to 1866 doesn't mean it's antiquated. The 155' height limit dates to about 1990 (note: before Tom Menino was mayor), and was partially intended to avoid catastrophes like Harbor Towers from ever happening again....right? Right. Good dialogue though!
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So if the 155' limit is insurmountable, than it must have been created after the Intercontinental was built. Or World Trade Center West. Or World Trade Center East. Or One Western Ave. Or the Seaport Hotel. Or Fan Pier. Or Atlantic Wharf. Or the BRA Master Plan for the Greenway.

And that's just off the top of my head . . .
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
Anyone who says Chapter 91 is a "paper tiger" has no idea....ask any developer in Boston.
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A) See AmericanFolkLegend's response above. My recollection is that those buildings were each permitted before the Downtown MHP was approved by the State.

B) The City filed a Downtown Municipal Harbor Plan which completely trumps height and density guidelines defined by Chapter 91.

C) If you want examples of violations, walk along any development along the Harborwalk. The best example is at Independence Wharf, where the developer added an extra floor beyond what the City and State permitted just for the hell of it. Enforcement? A slap on the wrist to the tune of around $25k.

D) Approval for a tower over the tracks at South Station far exceeds Chapter 91. That exemption was tucked in a Transportation Bond Bill.

E) I've got more, but too tired to go on.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Boston just looks like a chumpy small-timer here. 400' is pretty pathetic for a "skyscraper" in this day and age. If I were an established business wondering where to move my HQ, open a new business division, base my North American operations, or generally expand my white-collar workforce; or if I were a nimble entrepreneur, I think I'd find the "go-getter" business attitude of the city to be deflated, at best.

Why come to a place that doesn't want anything built over 100K sq. ft. in its downtown when you have options like New Jersey, North Carolina, Austin, San Fran and San Diego (if you're in tech or life sciences), Chicago (if you're an industrial), New York, San Fran or DC (if you're a business services/media group), LA (entertainment), or a dozen cities in Texas and North Carolina or even Nashville/Memphis, Nevada or Atlanta (if you just want a business-friendly environment).

I hate to say it, but Menino's Boston looks like it deliberately wants to be second-rate, a non-competitor, when it tells not one but repeated real estate developers ready and willing to build in the city's high-rise core that "That's all good and well, but why don't you build a stump, thank you very much?"
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

kennedy said:
I wouldn't exactly call the SCL proposal a trophy space.
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IIRC, when Drucker first unveiled his new building, he was quoted as saying he would be looking to get the highest office space rents in Boston. That his building, on the inside, merited such prices. (IMO, the outside certainly didn't.) So I would characterize a commercial office building with the highest rents 'trophy space'.

Below is a link to a listing of space currently available at One International Place. Building size given as 1,050,000 sq ft. Space available 419,000 sq ft.

In 2007, Chiofaro was getting $100 a square foot rents for IP new leases. Rents sought now are about half that.

http://listings.cushwake.com/us/exclusive/BuildingFlyer.cfm?BuildingID=81112&RU=Y&SL=No

IMO, if he can't fill much of that vacant space, sayonara Don and IP.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Yeah, I get that. We share the same opinion about the exterior, we just have different definitions of a trophy space. If it's a trophy, the very sight of the building must bring to mind that company. Needs to show off not only to associates invited inside, but to every damn person on the street. Like the Sears Tower or Chrysler Building did.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

itchy said:
......I hate to say it, but Menino's Boston looks like it deliberately wants to be second-rate, a non-competitor, when it tells not one but repeated real estate developers ready and willing to build in the city's high-rise core that "That's all good and well, but why don't you build a stump, thank you very much?"
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How many towers are already approved in/near downtown Boston on which construction has not started, been deferred, or stopped?

185 Franklin 400,000 sq ft tower on top of existing 18 floors
SST 41 floors (600+ ft)
Columbus Center 40 floors
Hayward Place 14 floors
Nashua St Residences 37 floors
One Franklin 38 floors
Kensington Place Hinge Block 30 floors
Zero Kneeland (Parcel 24) 22 floors
120 Kingston 25+ floors
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

C) If you want examples of violations, walk along any development along the Harborwalk. The best example is at Independence Wharf, where the developer added an extra floor beyond what the City and State permitted just for the hell of it. Enforcement? A slap on the wrist to the tune of around $25k.
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A fabulous example of a waterfront access violation. Not only did Marino get away with the extra floor, but that section of the "Harborwalk" is really more of a Harbor-crawlspace. It's seriously like a 5-foot tall outdoor passageway.

Interesting point on the extra floor, in addition to paying a fine, the building owners are required to maintain perpetual public access to the top (illegal) floor. So apparently you can go up and enjoy the views. From the BHA website:
Observation areas around the Harbor which are free and open to the general public include:
*Fosters Rotunda at 30 Rowes Wharf, open Monday-Friday, 11:00 am to 4:00 pm
*Independence Wharf at 470 Atlantic Avenue, 14th floor, 10 am to 5 pm
*John Joseph Moakley Courthouse, 2nd floor seating area and from the Library on the 9th floor, normal business hours
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

There were, of course other hard-pitched Chapter 91 battles beyond those entirely useless observation decks. Countless lives were lost were securing public bathrooms at the Marriott. Atlantic Wharf's lobby passed muster as a "facility of public accomodation." The most memorable fight, of course, was when the Conservation Law Foundation took on the Pritzkers for consolidation of greenspace as required under Chapter 91.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

As amusing as this controversy is, I can't get too worked up. It's cheaper to buy buildings than it is to build them. How will any developer get financing to build something at 650 feet, never mind 500 , 400, 250, pick any number you like.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

tobyjug said:
As amusing as this controversy is, I can't get too worked up.
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That's exactly how I feel.

I'd rather the media focus on "what" Chiofaro plans to build and how earth-shattering a project it is, than get caught up in "whether" he builds or get caught up in the height controversy.

The way this is panning out, Menino and Chiofaro will probably come to some compromise on height, and the papers will play up the drama of their relationship and the final height rather than focus on the quality of the architecture and its use.

It is a premiere location, worthy of a stellar project. So, what are the odds given the players and the history?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sicilian said:
That's exactly how I feel.
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It is a premiere location, worthy of a stellar project. So, what are the odds given the players and the history?
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From what I can deduce from the Chiofaro Co. website, there are only two buildings that Chiofaro owns and manages, IP and this one:

page_nashoba.jpg


So take your design pick.

His track record beyond IP seems quite limited. In his project list, he still extols his management of a technology park in the rte 495 corridor, a role than ended nearly 20 years ago.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

IP's nothing to scoff at -- between One International Place and Two International Place, he built the tallest buildings in the city in the 1980s and 1990s, respectively.

I have no particular love for Chiofaro (though I do find his chutzpah endearing), and I think the "Arch's" design could be vastly improved upon, but it seems fairly clear that the man's no bum (ahem, John Hynes). And even if -- worst-case scenario -- he were to demolish the garage and construction were to stall, it would only mean that ... a parking garage was demolished in a prime waterfront/Financial District location, clearing the parcel for something better than ... a parking garage.
 
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