[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Get the damn college kids to vote. How many of them could possibly support Menino? Damn Harvard and MIT for being in Cambridge, I bet every one of them would vote against Mumbles. Menino will definitely not be back in office next time around, so long as someone has the balls to really fight against him, not be radical, and rally the grow but disjointed majority that wouldn't support Hizzonah if they knew how he screwed the city.

First, a lot of college kids register in their home state, not in the state where they attend school.

Second, college kids tend to have little or no interest in local politics, unless they have a dog in the [political] fight, e.g., city ordinances or policies that affect them directly. Why would some college kid from Trenton NJ going to BU give a rat's ass about towers being built along the Greenway?

Third, college kids vote in national elections, not in local contests. However, if you put a referendum or initiative on the local ballot that interests them, e.g., legalizing the operation of Amsterdam-style coffee houses in Boston, they would vote in droves. Otherwise, forget it.

 

[kennedy]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

So, a mayoral candidate must appeal to all major groups of voters. One of those groups is college kids. A mayor who appeals to college kids can get college kids to vote, by your arguments. Part of the problem is that the students aren't involved in city politics, when the city should be doing everything it can to involve them and keep them here post-grad.

 

[jass]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

First, a lot of college kids register in their home state, not in the state where they attend school.
.

Students are welcome to register at home AND in their residence (as long as they only vote once). MANY colleges students believe that is not the case, but they are very wrong.

 

[ant8904]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Still no incentive to care about Boston. I care about Boston, but I live here and raised here. I intend to be here for a while longer at least and have developed enough of an attachment to want to see this city prosper. Plus, we are city-planner geeks as this forum is for (and architecture).

Most students, even if they know that they can vote, what motivating reason of why should they care about the libraries or the greenway? Most of us are concerned, of the those of us who are concerned about politics, are focused on national matters.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

So, a mayoral candidate must appeal to all major groups of voters. One of those groups is college kids. A mayor who appeals to college kids can get college kids to vote, by your arguments. Part of the problem is that the students aren't involved in city politics, when the city should be doing everything it can to involve them and keep them here post-grad.

The people who vote in local elections are overwhelmingly a.) property owners, and/or b.) direct recipients of city services (kids go to school in city schools). The transient population -- students, military -- by and large does not vote in local elections.

There are exceptions.
a.) Berkeley CA

b.) University towns, where the voting-age college population outnumbers everybody else, and where students run and are elected to public office (often to the consternation of the non-student electorate).

In all of Cambridge MA, there are about 2,500 registered voters between the ages of 18 and 22. In the November 2009 municipal elections, 200 of these 2,500 voted. About 1,900 [in this cohort] voted in the November 2008 election, which was a national election.

http://cambridgecivic.com/?m=200911

 

[GW2500]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

"Chiofaro acknowledges that even if he has the approvals he seeks, he can't build without a tenant. So the idea that approving his project is going to solve Boston's current tax shortfall is ludicrous. And in his ENF, IIRC, Chiofaro indicates the project would be built in stages over a ten year period or so, so not much in the way of taxes until after 2020."

Stellar, you are right about no imediate tax money increase, but because budget cuts allways seem to happen (thanks largerly to city workers health insurance and pension plans) I'm sure in 2020 we could use the extra money. And I've been thinking about it and I still don't know how something can have long term value but not be economically vaible any time between here and there.

 

[JohnAKeith]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Here's a comment left on my website regarding the garage and Councilor Tobin:

Hi John, there are a number of facts on this project that have been omitted from your blog (which I enjoy very much by the way!) that you should be aware of before taking a position on this project or cheerleading for Councilor Tobin?s recent announcement.

First of all:

- Chiofaro?s project does not have debt or equity financing, and there is no market for the product that he is proposing to build. A building that can?t get financed and for which there is no market will not generate a dime of new tax revenue, and certainly not in time to make a shred of difference in the city?s near-term budget issues.

- The BRA asked Chiofaro for additional information and studies about the project last summer ? nearly a year ago ? Chiofaro has yet to respond. The onus is 100% on him to move this project forward and yet he has done nothing other than open fire on city hall in the press, rather than actually work on the project.

- The city and state height limit on the garage site are both 155 feet. And they were when Chiofaro and his partner Prudential purchased the garage at the height of the real estate market in 2007. The BRA?s Greenway study is actually UP-zoning the garage site.

- Even if the city rolled over tomorrow and supported Chiofaro?s project, the state?s Chapter 91 licensing process and Municipal Harbor Plan renewal process would take years. Again, the state?s process alone would mean that this project could never get built in time to have any impact whatsoever on this year?s budget issues, library issues, etc etc. It is totally uninformed and unrealistic to draw any nexus between this project getting approved and budget relief for the city in FY-011.

- Chiofaro?s project is not ?in the middle of the Financial District.? It is at the edge of Boston Harbor (which is why the height limit is 155 feet in the first place) and the Greenway, two essential public assets that need to be protected from the negative impacts of towers nearly twice the height of the adjacent Harbor Towers, which I don?t think anyone would suggest were a good idea in hindsight?.so why would anyone advocate for their replication, only with buildings almost twice as tall?

- The garage?s abutters have legal rights in the garage until the 2060s that Chiofaro is powerless to eliminate. How can this project get linked to near term budget relief when it can?t legally be built until 2060-something?

- Most importantly, you should know that Councilor Tobin, after learning more of the facts about this project (not just Don Chiofaro?s side of the story) elected to withdraw his call for a City Council hearing on the project yesterday.

Just a few thoughts from a North Ender who is usually pro-development.

 

[GW2500]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^^ Just a few thoughts from a Northender who usually prodevelopment, unless it's in my back yard. Then I side with zoning laws put in place in 1855, when 155 feet would have been one of the tallest structures in the city.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Thanks for sharing that email, John. I'll leave the debate over what's "legal" or not to the people who are far more familiar with that than I am.

However, the thing he said that irked me was this, "... protected from the negative impacts of towers nearly twice the height of the adjacent Harbor Towers, which I don?t think anyone would suggest were a good idea in hindsight?.so why would anyone advocate for their replication, only with buildings almost twice as tall?"

The reason this grinds my gears, so to speak, is that this one resident is far from the only person I've heard express this point of view. It goes right back to the perception of so many that height is automatically bad. This example is telling. I agree with the guy, the Harbor Towers suck. However, height isn't even close to the "problem" with them. Where to begin? Scale, architecture, placement on property, efficient use of property, relationship with the surrounding neighborhood, etc. Those are all big issues with the Harbor Towers, but how is their "height" an issue?

 

[GW2500]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Another fault I have w/ this northend resident is saying that nothing can get built here until 2060 b/c of Harbor Towers' parking and HVAC. I'm sure these are issues that need to be worked around and w/ parking compensated, but I don't think even the BRA wants to wait till 2060 to build something there.

 

[kennedy]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

This is what grind my gears more than anything:

It is at the edge of Boston Harbor (which is why the height limit is 155 feet in the first place) and the Greenway, two essential public assets that need to be protected from the negative impacts of towers nearly twice the height of the adjacent Harbor Towers

No ifs, ands, or buts about it - the RKG is here to stay, folks. It is now property of the NIMBYs. An essential public asset that must be protected from towers.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

You guys tend to see things in black in white too much.

This is a really interesting bit:

- The BRA asked Chiofaro for additional information and studies about the project last summer ? nearly a year ago ? Chiofaro has yet to respond. The onus is 100% on him to move this project forward and yet he has done nothing other than open fire on city hall in the press, rather than actually work on the project.

I'd love to hear Chiofaro's side of this point.

 

[kennedy]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I thought that referred to the Greenway zoning study or whatever it was called. And I thought Chiofaro's response was, "Are you kidding me? F*ck off, BRA!"

 

[Beton Brut]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I thought that referred to the Greenway zoning study or whatever it was called....

Can someone help me understand why this "study" was not done ten years ago? Surely the City was aware that the Artery was going to come down and that there'd be all of this lovely new parkland. Wasn't the BRA intimately involved in the Turnpike Authority's design process?

I asked similar questions in a public meeting sponsored by the BRA about a year ago. I was told that the BRA had "other priorities and initiatives" at that time.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I thought that referred to the Greenway zoning study or whatever it was called. And I thought Chiofaro's response was, "Are you kidding me? F*ck off, BRA!"

I read it as it refers directly to Chiofaro's tower plan. The BRA requested more information about it from him and for some reason he hasn't sent it over yet. This strikes me as an odd decision for someone who wants this built ASAP.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Can someone help me understand why this "study" was not done ten years ago? Surely the City was aware that the Artery was going to come down and that there'd be all of this lovely new parkland. Wasn't the BRA intimately involved in the Turnpike Authority's design process?

I asked similar questions in a public meeting sponsored by the BRA about a year ago. I was told that the BRA had "other priorities and initiatives" at that time.

That is a great question.
Since the BRA hinted to developers in the city that they wanted to build someting on this parcel which Chiofaro spends 155 Million dollars to build on the site. I would think that since Chiofaro proposed his building before the study was ever conducted that he should be allowed to build at the height the FAA will allow him to . I still don't know the difference between Harbor Towers being 400Ft with an extra 200ft right next door.

I actually think that having four 400ft Towers would look stupid all next door to each other.

 

[palindrome]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

me too ^. I would rather a 530 and a 270 next to each other or something along those lines.

 

[greenwayguy1982]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I would think that since Chiofaro proposed his building before the study was ever conducted that he should be allowed to build at the height the FAA will allow him to . QUOTE]

Well, the greenway study might not have been conducted yet but the existing zoning (155') and the Municipal Harbor Plan both date to the 1990s and were in effect when Chiofaro spent all that money for the garage so he was fully aware of the height restrictions - both city and state - on that site when he bought it. Why not hold him to the laws that were in effect at the time he initially proposed his project?

I don't understand why he's complaining if the BRA asked him for more information about his project a year ago and he still hasn't gotten back to them. Why doesn't he just give them the info on his project and advance the ball down the field?

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

What Chiofaro might be doing is trying to demostrate that the existing zoning and the Municipal Harbor Plan are both poorly thought out and need to be fixed.

If that that case, than Chiofaro is playing chess while everyone else is play checkers. I'm not sure I'd give him that much credit. Most likely he just wants his own rules to play by.

 

[joebos]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I don't understand why he's complaining if the BRA asked him for more information about his project a year ago and he still hasn't gotten back to them. Why doesn't he just give them the info on his project and advance the ball down the field?

Maybe he was waiting for the Menino regime to be thrown out by the voters, which unfortunately didn't happen.