MBTA "Transformation" (Green Line, Red Line, & Orange Line Transformation Projects)

themissinglink said:
Does anyone know why the Green Line goes so slow between Reservoir and Beaconsfield? What needs to be done to speed up this stretch?
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Some combination of going over switches and through a yard area, if I remember correctly. The Type 10s should help with the former, the latter is safety and/or regulatory related and probably isn't changing anytime soon.
 
TheRatmeister said:
So far only one train appears to have made the trip at 50MPH.
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On that stretch yes, but North Quincy to Braintree and back looks like speeds have increased all day so far - looks like it saves about a minute in each direction (as far as we can tell with half a day of info).
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Whats going on here? Why not just run normal service from JFK to Ashmont with trains using the switch south of JFK?
 

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cubbe8 said:
Whats going on here? Why not just run normal service from JFK to Ashmont with trains using the switch south of JFK?
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Perhaps not to risk a derailment like has happened several times now from infrequently used switches. It's also just not really necessary, two trains lets you have a shuttle train every 10 minutes.
 
The press release for this service change notes that the specific work being performed is "special track work near Ashmont," which would be the switches and crossovers used to reverse trains south of the station. The inability to switch trains between the southbound and northbound tracks at Ashmont is resulting in this shuttle train operation with one train running back and forth on each track.
 
The Mattapan VMF and TPSS Projects are a part of the overall Mattapan Line Transformation Program, which aims to modernize the Mattapan Line as well increase accessibility and improve the reliability of the service. The program’s primary objective is to implement the necessary infrastructure upgrades to accommodate Type 9 light rail vehicles, allowing for the retirement of the existing PCC trolleys.
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I don't see anything that says the station reconstructions have been eliminated, just that this specific advertisement is for the power upgrades and the Mattapan carhouse. The power upgrades also include work in Codman Yard - i.e, for the expanded Red Line fleet - and I imagine that drives the timeline. These are also some of the longer-lead-time items that you want 100% completed before you even start bringing Type 9 cars onto the line for testing - and they're things that can be done without affecting regular service.

Presumably the other main items are rebuilding Ashmont (including the viaduct), rebuilding the other stations, modifications to bridges (Gallivan Boulevard, Neponset Trail, Neponset River x2), and possibly general track reconstruction. All of those are more disruptive to service, and it's likely it would require an extended shutdown like the 2006-07 rebuild. The station rebuilds need to be massively sanity-checked to address the runaway costs, and I suspect there will be discussion about whether the tiny ridership at Capen Street and Valley Road is worth the cost. I'm not sure how far along the Ashmont rebuild - the most complicated part for sure - is yet.
 
cubbe8 said:
Do the stations (except Ashmont) have to be rebuilt to accommodate a type 9? I don’t think so.
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They need some modifications to have accessible, level boarding. That and SGR work were the main motivators for the station rebuilds.

And I agree that this doesn't seem like station reconstruction is cancelled. It just seems likely that there are station closures/consolidations coming, and that's going have to wait on community feedback for a while. Capen Street and Valley road are basically impossible to justify keeping based on the most recent ridership data (10-20 daily riders as of June 2023), but it is easy to imagine politics getting in the way. A reasonable case can also be made for some consolidation of the other remaining intermediate stops, with Butler, Milton, and Central Ave all within a quarter mile of each other and Cedar Grove a quarter mile from Ashmont (crossing Gallivan notwithstanding). We'll see what happens, but I'd be surprised if the stations are just left to continue deteriorating indefinitely.
 
BeansTheCat said:
They need some modifications to have accessible, level boarding. That and SGR work were the main motivators for the station rebuilds.

And I agree that this doesn't seem like station reconstruction is cancelled. It just seems likely that there are station closures/consolidations coming, and that's going have to wait on community feedback for a while. Capen Street and Valley road are basically impossible to justify keeping based on the most recent ridership data (10-20 daily riders as of June 2023), but it is easy to imagine politics getting in the way. A reasonable case can also be made for some consolidation of the other remaining intermediate stops, with Butler, Milton, and Central Ave all within a quarter mile of each other and Cedar Grove a quarter mile from Ashmont (crossing Gallivan notwithstanding). We'll see what happens, but I'd be surprised if the stations are just left to continue deteriorating indefinitely.
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Station stop consolidation has been discussed in the past here, but for me at least, as a daily rider pre-pandemic, not sure I see it.

Cedar Grove: Yeah, really close to Ashmont. Annoyingly so. I generally used Cedar Grove and the old can't get there from here applies: if they added a pedestrian way next to the tracks that would be awesome, otherwise you are talking about adding almost an additional mile walk on top of the existing catchment. As the crow files it's less than 1/3 a mile. It's also the closest thing you have to Adams Corner for a transit stop which is pretty bustling nowadays.

Butler: Give I would argue a different catchment of pure residential from Milton and Cedar Grove (I could do either but go Cedar Grove as it's just one less stop ride for little difference to me). You could argue riders could use the Neposit Trail to get to Milton easily enough which is true, but, after dark I don't think many people are keen on that.

Milton: Embarrassing the main stop in for Lower Mills doesn't have a it's main entrance for years now. I'd vote to move it West slightly and put it under the Adams St bridge. Get shelter to wait for it and can have entrances on each side of Adams and Eliot. Lease the Air Rights for development.

Central Ave: Could probably merge it in with Milton, especially if Milton is move a bit and has greater reaching entrances/head houses. That said - a bunch of housing development in both Milton and Mattapan have went up around it, and it would be rather shitty to pull the T out of the TOD.

Valley/Capen: Yeah, could be removed due to ridership. That said under my understanding neither can ever be ADA compliant - so I don't really see an issue with keeping them as bare minimum flag stations. The trolley today generally treats everything today as a flag station - need to request stop onboard or have people waiting for it to actually stop. I guess for bare minimum costs given it is a hyper local light rail line I don't see the issue in having shorter station spacing.


Now if it ever converted to actual heavy rapid transit with a red line extension I think only only Milton and Mattapan survive.
 
bakgwailo said:
Valley/Capen: Yeah, could be removed due to ridership. That said under my understanding neither can ever be ADA compliant - so I don't really see an issue with keeping them as bare minimum flag stations. The trolley today generally treats everything today as a flag station - need to request stop onboard or have people waiting for it to actually stop. I guess for bare minimum costs given it is a hyper local light rail line I don't see the issue in having shorter station spacing.
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As of 2023, the reconstruction of Valley Road is estimated to cost $20,836,250 and the reconstruction of Capen Street is estimated to cost $8,012,686.

The ridership at those two stops is way too small to justify multimillion dollar reconstructions. I hope they close those two stations instead of spending all of that money.
 
themissinglink said:
As of 2023, the reconstruction of Valley Road is estimated to cost $20,836,250 and the reconstruction of Capen Street is estimated to cost $8,012,686.

The ridership at those two stops is way too small to justify multimillion dollar reconstructions. I hope they close those two stations instead of spending all of that money.
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Whoa. First ridership recovery is terrible at both. That said, I would be interested in why Valley Road is 2x Milton and Capen also pretty high. Are they making it ADA compliant finally? I thought it that was waved due to the entrance being rather impossible to make ADA compliant? Again, I'd only advocate for keeping them if they could be the bare minimum stations due to not needing ADA compliance. At $20m for just Valley road, forget it, but that seems utterly an insane price to me.
 
bakgwailo said:
Whoa. First ridership recovery is terrible at both. That said, I would be interested in why Valley Road is 2x Milton and Capen also pretty high. Are they making it ADA compliant finally? I thought it that was waved due to the entrance being rather impossible to make ADA compliant? Again, I'd only advocate for keeping them if they could be the bare minimum stations due to not needing ADA compliance. At $20m for just Valley road, forget it, but that seems utterly an insane price to me.
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Reconstruction, even for structural repair purposes, triggers automatic compliance under the Mass Architectural Board accessibility regs...so there's no exemption possible for Valley Rd. anymore unless they leave the station completely as-is. My guess is that they'd be significantly re-grading the egress and putting in switchback ramps as alternative to the stairs for achieving accessibility, and that's where most of the bloat is coming from. It's definitely a goner at that price.
 
Restating my thoughts on this, for the Nth time:

Capen St: Needs a path to Mattapan Station but assuming that's done, the stop can be eliminated.

Valley Rd: Safe to be eliminated with no mitigations. If Milton feels strongly to the contrary they can foot the bill, same for Capen St.

Central Ave: Keep (Probably uncontroversial)

Milton: Keep (Also likely to be uncontroversial)

Butler: If an access point to the Neponset Trail can be added at Medway St, remove. If that's not possible, keep.

Cedar Grove: I lean towards keep currently. To get rid of it you would, at a minimum need:
  1. Entrance/exit to/from both platforms onto Radford St
  2. Crosswalk between Wessex/Rangeley Streets
If the Hillsdale St entrance is reopened (or is still open, I honestly cannot tell), I'm more on the side of keep.
 
Cedar Grove is a definite keep to me. It's the best transit access to Cedar Grove cemetery and Dorchester Park (especially if Butler is closed), and 1800 feet is a reasonable light rail stop spacing. Given the difficulty of providing an accessible path from the outbound Ashmont platform to Radford Lane (without multiple elevators), it's probably cheaper to rebuild (de-cost-bloated) Cedar Grove than to make the modifications to provide replacement access to Ashmont.

I also suspect its ridership may be artificially lower by the awkward transfer at Ashmont - if that's easier and more reliable, some riders may switch to Cedar Grove from the less-frequent 201 and 215 buses or walking further to Ashmont.
 
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