121 Seaport Boulevard | Parcel L2 | Seaport Square

[stick n move]

The Seaport is starting to have the most detailed and vibrant ground level in the city with public spaces around every corner. Fan pier and here is wrapping up nicely, pier 4 is moving along, seaport sq. recently finished, and M parcels and L parcels have a huge focus on the ground level there.

 

[tysmith95]

most detailed and vibrant ground level in the city with public spaces around every corner.

Um no, i'll have to disagree with you on that one.

You're telling me that the seaport is more vibrant then Hanover Street, Newbury Street, Boyleston St, Stuart Street or Essex Street in Chinatown, Harvard Square. If you think the seaport is more vibrant and interesting then all of those places i'd think that you are on crack.

Heck even Davis seems more interesting to me.

 

[Money]

Um no, i'll have to disagree with you on that one.

You're telling me that the seaport is more vibrant then Hanover Street, Newbury Street, Boyleston St, Stuart Street or Essex Street in Chinatown, Harvard Square. If you think the seaport is more vibrant and interesting then all of those places i'd think that you are on crack.

Heck even Davis seems more interesting to me.

I agree. I stopped by 1 seaport square to return something at LL Bean. They were having a grand opening shindig which had an ok crowd. Beyond that, there were some people along Seaport Ave., and the memorial park, but everywhere else, including fan pier was dead. The area has a long way to go, but as it currently stands, i find it uninspiring and definitely not vibrant...especially to what stick is comparing it to. I dont think the M parcels or any other development can fix it. Perhaps time will.

 

[stick n move]

I said starting to. I wasnt really comparing it to the older areas but to the newer parts of the city that are more comparable besides height with office/res towers. You barely get anything on the ground floors of most office/res buildings and there definitely arent as many public spaces. I didnt mean vibrant (yet) as in with lots of people, but as in being vibrant looking places with lots of detail, planters, trees, benches, interesting things to look at, sculptures, signs, wood, and pavers everywhere. I didnt say it does yet, but theyre putting public spaces everywhere that will be used once more people live down here. Theyre investing in the future.

 

[jass]

The Seaport is starting to have the most detailed and vibrant ground level in the city with public spaces around every corner. Fan pier and here is wrapping up nicely, pier 4 is moving along, seaport sq. recently finished, and M parcels and L parcels have a huge focus on the ground level there.

Nothing says vibrant like the exact same glass/metal door copied and pasted 7 times along the same glass/metal facade!

The bottom of the building in the last photo is an embarrassment.

 

[stick n move]

Alright whatever. I dont know what word to use lol who cares. Theres a lot of shit going on and a lot of public spaces with shit in them like shown above.

 

[shmessy]

Alright whatever. I dont know what word to use lol who cares. Theres a lot of shit going on and a lot of public spaces with shit in them like shown above.

You are FINALLY using the right descriptive noun.

 

[dirtywater]

I agree with Stick. Although this area will never have the charm or architectural interest of some of our historic neighborhoods, it has already become an area with lots of interesting things to see and do. It is becoming a vibrant area and, I believe with the completion of the projects under construction and planned will be one of the most vibrant areas in the City.

 

[falcon42]

I agree. I stopped by 1 seaport square to return something at LL Bean. They were having a grand opening shindig which had an ok crowd. Beyond that, there were some people along Seaport Ave., and the memorial park, but everywhere else, including fan pier was dead. The area has a long way to go, but as it currently stands, i find it uninspiring and definitely not vibrant...especially to what stick is comparing it to. I dont think the M parcels or any other development can fix it. Perhaps time will.

The weather has a lot to do with it obviously. This weekend has been the most crowded weekend of the winter, mostly because of Pax East or whatever that pokemon convention is. There were lines at all the restaurants Fri/Sat night. I agree, Fan Pier is often dead as far as walking traffic.

 

[Smartiro]

There's still a long way to go. There's not enough local density and not many reasons to visit.
Most of this progress is one or two blocks deep. There's more than 10 towers under construction right now and still you walk Congress or Summer outside of Fort Point and it feels desolate with parking lot upon a parking lot.
And then some say there's no room to grow in the city...

 

[jl326]

How exactly does a uniform glass facade with uniform glass doors develop any unique culture?

The whole design is so this crap is modular. In the exact same space they can put in 7 small food counters, 2 banks, or 1 big CVS. All look the same from the outside.

Pretty sure those are just stock doors. Retailers can change them out, create more unique entrances (there are already examples of that), and can probably do something different with the windows as well. You should go ahead and do that. Lease a retail space and go buck wild to your heart's content.

 

[jass]

Pretty sure those are just stock doors. Retailers can change them out, create more unique entrances (there are already examples of that), and can probably do something different with the windows as well. You should go ahead and do that. Lease a retail space and go buck wild to your heart's content.

It doesnt matter how many doors I buy from the Home Depot, we're never getting this

From this

IMG_4554 by David Couhig, on Flickr

 

[jl326]

It doesnt matter how many doors I buy from the Home Depot, we're never getting this

From this

IMG_4554 by David Couhig, on Flickr

Something like that exactly? Well no, the styles are very different. However, I would say that the Outlook Kitchen and Bar at the Envoy nearby is not very conceptually different than the side of 121 Seaport, and they have pretty nice ground floor patio dining during the warmer months. An attractive patio and exterior wall can absolutely be done within the current structure.

 

[cadetcarl]

Yeah I gotta say that's not a great example shot. Once tree cover grows in I don't see any physical limitations to achieving some of that street life. If anything it's regulations around foodservice and alcohol that would stop us from realizing the posted image. We talked about some of these things recently in the retail thread.

 

[JumboBuc]

It doesnt matter how many doors I buy from the Home Depot, we're never getting this

[...]

From this
[...]

That step-down probably doesn't meet ADA compliance and would thus not be permitted in a new development. You also can't blame the developer or architect for the Seaport's lack of large mature trees. After all, this building is on a tidal flat turned railroad yard turned parking lot. Even still, this pedestrian retail stretch does include a number of new trees which will grow up and out over time.

For a more apples-to-apples comparison look to a random retail-lined pedestrian way in Paris's modern business district. That kinda looks like--dare I say--this exact stretch in the Seaport.

Something like that exactly? Well no, the styles are very different. [...] An attractive patio and exterior wall can absolutely be done within the current structure.

Right. Tatte, for example, has multiple locations with street presences that resemble your "brasserie" example in buildings that resemble 121 Seaport.

 

[jass]

I didnt even notice the step down. My point is really the building itself. I think Boston has done an excellent job at mandating the pavers on the sidewalk/road and the use of wood.

That glass which is copy and pasted from every new building is the problem. It's souless. Theres no texture. It's supposed to be transparent but it just reflects nothing back to you. Tenants cant actually do anything to it. You walk past a restaurant, a bike shop, a 7-11, a staples and they all look the same aside from the small company name on standard font.

I havent been to Outlook Kitchen and Bar, but looking on Streetview, I see the same glass and repetition. Take out the tables, which is probably the case for 6 months, and you have another dead space.

A better example IMO is the Daily Catch. Not perfect, but better.

Edit: Youll find the same issues with new development in DC. Look at CityCenter. City did a great job with the streetscape, but the ground floor of the building kills any vibrancy.

https://goo.gl/maps/C2kjSamULeJ2

You have food, boutiques, even a Tesla...walking past it all feels the same. Like a glass wall youre not supposed to breach.

They try to brighten it up...

https://goo.gl/maps/3G8kDWtR8Fs

But wouldnt you rather shop on Newbury Street where every building is unique?

 

[cden4]

Wait for the weather to warm up a little bit. You'll see a lot more people hanging out outside in the Seaport, as long as cafes and restaurants set up tables outside. 121 Seaport Blvd so far has done a much better job than most new developments to have lots of retail all along the ground floor, and on all the different sides of the building. I can see the plaza in between La Colombe and the not-yet-open Fuku chicken place being very busy if they put out some tables and chairs.

 

[jl326]

For a more apples-to-apples comparison look to a random retail-lined pedestrian way in Paris's modern business district. That kinda looks like--dare I say--this exact stretch in the Seaport.

Slight tangent: I have always thought that the critiques expressed by some re: the Seaport mirror very closely with the critiques heard when the La Defense area was being built up. A portion of the population derided it, clamoring it to be unauthentic, un-Parisian, etc. While it obviously looks very different from certain other parts of Paris, the modern downtown area has been a success as far as I know. It is highly desirable, appeals to a crowd, and takes nothing away from other existing parts of Paris. You can draw your own parallels to the Seaport here, which Stick has also expressed.

That glass which is copy and pasted from every new building is the problem. It's souless. Theres no texture. It's supposed to be transparent but it just reflects nothing back to you. Tenants cant actually do anything to it. You walk past a restaurant, a bike shop, a 7-11, a staples and they all look the same aside from the small company name on standard font.

I havent been to Outlook Kitchen and Bar, but looking on Streetview, I see the same glass and repetition. Take out the tables, which is probably the case for 6 months, and you have another dead space.

A better example IMO is the Daily Catch. Not perfect, but better.

Edit: Youll find the same issues with new development in DC. Look at CityCenter. City did a great job with the streetscape, but the ground floor of the building kills any vibrancy.

https://goo.gl/maps/C2kjSamULeJ2

You have food, boutiques, even a Tesla...walking past it all feels the same. Like a glass wall youre not supposed to breach.

They try to brighten it up...

https://goo.gl/maps/3G8kDWtR8Fs

But wouldnt you rather shop on Newbury Street where every building is unique?

I don't think your critiques are unique to the specific developments in the Seaport. I'm not sure if there is any new development that closely resembles and expands upon the styles, motifs, and designs of buildings from long ago. Happy to be proven wrong if I'm the ignorant one here. The closest thing I could think of is the Commonwealth Hotel in Kenmore, and that actually looks a little too Disney-esque to me.

I'm going to interpret your comment about "a glass wall youre not supposed to breach" as having feelings of being unwelcomed. Perhaps that's more of a personal feeling rather than a function of modern architecture or style itself? For example, while no longer true today, I remember as a kid feeling unwelcomed walking by the various doorsteps that line Commonwealth, Marlborough, and Beacon (commercial or otherwise). There was really no good reason to feel that way though.

I think seasonal dead spaces are heavily influenced by the weather and it's an unfortunate circumstance that we have. Remember that it will almost always be colder by the water as well. I believe that, when further completed, this area could be as pleasant as any other, provided you can accept that it won't resemble the older, more established parts of Boston.

 

[tysmith95]

...and then when developers try to recreate the older styles it usually gets labeled as Disney fake.

i.e. the ski village at Mont Tremblant.
https://goo.gl/maps/v2pdaZTQf2T2

I love that ski village! I've always wanted to make my way up to Tremblant but I usually just end up skiing in Maine.

 

[UrbanDozer]

I'm sorry, but that kind of lazy reasoning misses the key point.

How many of those 100+ year old neighborhoods are built one-building-per block? Neighborhoods are made up of NEIGHBORS - - both human and architecture.

The "one building per block" method is anti-social at its root. Houstonians are famous for saying "The best neighbor is a good fence".

Architecture matters. A neighborhood of solitary islands, separated by moats we call streets, is no "neighborhood". Short of demolition and rebuilding differently, it will never be.

I don't outright disagree with either of you - I think both architecture and time are important. I don't think residents on Newbury Street in 1890 foresaw that their street a century later would be the premier shopping district in the city. Some buildings stayed, some changed, and the character evolved. Even the beautiful buildings of the Back Back went through a period of time in the mid-20th century where they were considered obsolete and rundown at worst, "quaint" at best. So for the buildings of the Seaport to run that same course wouldn't surprise me. And in 50 years, when that happens, it is likely some will be demolished, some altered to a style that will is impossible to predict, or, as some have half-jokingly (or very seriously) mentioned, may even be underwater. And in 100 years, the neighborhood may be largely unrecognizable to us again, just as it is to those who remember it being nothing but parking lots and rail yards. If planes learn to fly without runways, the Seaport could become a glittering district of 1000' towers, and the added FAR would make it economically feasible to demolish these stumpy boxes.

Is what we see today an improvement? To me, I believe it is. It's investment, it's development, and though not perfect, it's a start and will evolve with time. As an Urban Planner I wish the street layout was a little more interesting, a little more intimate, and yes, the buildings a little more creative. But in 50 or 100 years, this neighborhood could undergo a second transformation just as Newbury Street, the North End, and so many other neighborhoods have undergone. It's frustrating that we cannot just build these neighborhoods right-out-of-the-box to be historic and amazing, but that's just how it goes. If we could live to be 200, I think we'd have a more keen understanding of how dramatic an effect time has on a place. Nothing is permanent.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MmT22kH_Yv4kC81DnLEU9kxirq9XFJsp

https://drive.google.com/open?id=11ykE9xizI-ZzAZ-ghMTipIJSIUKezP8K