A-Line Reactivation

[F-Line to Dudley]

Question: what's Herb Chambers' beef with transit? An ideological disdain or something more truly logical?

Brighton Ave. w/trolleys means less parking, no high-speed 4-lane traffic. Less parking = less people pulling up door-to-door to go to his showroom. Less of a drag strip means less fun showing this customer the zippy acceleration on that test drive. Also, in-street rails are HISTORY'S GREATEST MONSTER to mopeds, says some guy who makes a lot of money selling mopeds.

I doubt the guy's got an anti-transit manifesto typed out or anything, but you don't really have to make a cause out of it when you're the biggest retail owner on the block, you have an open line to opine at the most powerful pols in the city, and you have zero to lose on the benefits of transit by being situated on the block between Harvard and Packards where you're never more than a 5 minute walk in any direction from a trolley stop.

He opposed because he could. Because it was easy. And it served his overall interests to exercise his hand over the neighborhood from time to time. I mean, was the emergency pocket track that was leftover really that big a pearl-clutching menace that there had to be a whole separate round of theatrics about getting that ripped out too? No. But it advertises the motorcycle dealership nicely to have those stupid flagpoles in the median point right to your doorstep, and you know you can work the levers to get it...so why not? The neighborhood's not in control of the narrative...it's already been set on neighborhood vs. T/state, street-running vs. car zero-sum grounds (i.e. "if the train wins, all other modes lose!"). HC isn't gonna look like a bad guy for sticking his thumb where his thumb has its god-given right to be stuck...not when the narrative's been set and it puts the neighborhood on the permanent defensive. Only thing HC had to fear is getting called out as an obstructionist by someone who did have the power to set and maintain a narrative.

Nothing to see here.

 

[Matthew]

Yeah, I love being buzzed by idiots doing 50 mph down Brighton Avenue every so often as I cross. That street really needs to be narrowed and tamed.

I never understood the folks who fetishize the "Auto Mile" on Comm Ave. What a blight, I'm glad it's mostly gone, except for a few horrid holdouts like Herb. It's like they setup shop along the trolley line on purpose, in order to entice riders to buy cars. Hey, they can oppose all improvements to the line, in order to push more people into their cars.

 

[whighlander]

Brighton Ave. w/trolleys means less parking, no high-speed 4-lane traffic. Less parking = less people pulling up door-to-door to go to his showroom. Less of a drag strip means less fun showing this customer the zippy acceleration on that test drive. Also, in-street rails are HISTORY'S GREATEST MONSTER to mopeds, says some guy who makes a lot of money selling mopeds.

I doubt the guy's got an anti-transit manifesto typed out or anything, but you don't really have to make a cause out of it when you're the biggest retail owner on the block, you have an open line to opine at the most powerful pols in the city, and you have zero to lose on the benefits of transit by being situated on the block between Harvard and Packards where you're never more than a 5 minute walk in any direction from a trolley stop.

He opposed because he could. Because it was easy. And it served his overall interests to exercise his hand over the neighborhood from time to time. I mean, was the emergency pocket track that was leftover really that big a pearl-clutching menace that there had to be a whole separate round of theatrics about getting that ripped out too? No. But it advertises the motorcycle dealership nicely to have those stupid flagpoles in the median point right to your doorstep, and you know you can work the levers to get it...so why not? The neighborhood's not in control of the narrative...it's already been set on neighborhood vs. T/state, street-running vs. car zero-sum grounds (i.e. "if the train wins, all other modes lose!"). HC isn't gonna look like a bad guy for sticking his thumb where his thumb has its god-given right to be stuck...not when the narrative's been set and it puts the neighborhood on the permanent defensive. Only thing HC had to fear is getting called out as an obstructionist by someone who did have the power to set and maintain a narrative.

Nothing to see here.

F-Line -- I think you associate too much with the "HC problem on Comm Ave" -- it sounds almost like some of the other personal vendettas that get expressed to everyone on the Arch Bostoston forum

HC is a legitimate B$ personal assets man who owns about 50 automotive dealerships scattered across the entire Greater Boston metro region and a few other places in New England -- his group is the 5th largest auto dealership enterprise in the US -- selling over a B$ worth of cars each year and some Vespas on the side. Over 1700 employees work for the various dealerships and the HQ operations.

from his Auto Dealer Group Website
http://herbchambers.com/About_Herb_Chambers

and the Hoover's corporate info site

And Note -- just like much of the economics and population of Greater Boston -- most of Herbs' dealerships, customers and his B$'s of money comes from the suburbs

I counted 4 separate HC dealierships located on Comm Ave + 2 on Brighton Ave -- all the rest of the 47 separate locations are outside the Boston City limits -- the HQ for the HC Co's is at his Mercedes dealership next to McGrath Highway in Sommerville.

from the wiki article

His collection of rare automobiles includes the McLaren F1, Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren, Ferrari Daytona Spyder, Ferrari Daytona Coupe, 2006 Ford GT, Porsche 959 Supercar, 2006 Porsche Carrera GT, Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz Convertible, Ford Model B (1932) and a 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300SL that was raced in the 1983 Cannonball Run.

and now a "Bugatti Veyron 16.4 that features a 1,000-horsepower quad-turbocharged engine that can go 235 mph"

His other assetts include: a " $60 million, 188-foot yacht, the Excellence III; a $34 million Gulfstream G450 jet; a helicopter; a Connecticut marina (East Lyme where he keeps his personal car collection); and a condo at the Mandarin Oriental, where preconstruction prices started at $2 million."

As a personal note while I've never met Herb, my wife and I have bought two Honda Civics (the car of choice in may neighborhood in Lexington) from the Hc Honda shop in Burlington

Now if herb was concerned about using Comm Ave to test drive one of these -- I'd be right with him

Alas -- Herb Chambers Lamborghini Boston
is actually located in a western suburb on 531 Boston Post Road (Route 20) in Wayland, MA 01778

 

[omaja]

Whigh, what part of Herb Chambers having a vested interest in derailing light rail in in Allston-Brighton isn't transparently obvious?

1. He has six dealerships within an earshot of the former A Line route.
2. The clientele at his Allston locations is obviously not all suburban; otherwise the dealerships would have moved along with them.
3. Eliminating the A Line removed one-seat service to Downtown for a big portion of Brighton and, by extension, made cars a more 'viable' replacement option.

One only needs to look at how horrific parking is in Brighton (and how lax the police are enforcing parking regulations) to see how car-dependent most of the population is. It isn't for lack of density but for lack of access.

I have no idea what Herb's personal wealth or assets have to do with the discussion at hand. He had a vested business interest in removing working public transit from his front door where he sells a 'competing' form of transportation. If everyone in Brighton saw that the A Line was at least functioning (hey, the B Line is still heavily patronized despite all of its fatal flaws), they would likely have been less apt to purchase vehicles from him. It's as simple as that.

 

[whighlander]

Whigh, what part of Herb Chambers having a vested interest in derailing light rail in in Allston-Brighton isn't transparently obvious?

1. He has six dealerships within an earshot of the former A Line route.
2. The clientele at his Allston locations is obviously not all suburban; otherwise the dealerships would have moved along with them.
3. Eliminating the A Line removed one-seat service to Downtown for a big portion of Brighton and, by extension, made cars a more 'viable' replacement option.

One only needs to look at how horrific parking is in Brighton (and how lax the police are enforcing parking regulations) to see how car-dependent most of the population is. It isn't for lack of density but for lack of access.

I have no idea what Herb's personal wealth or assets have to do with the discussion at hand. He had a vested business interest in removing working public transit from his front door where he sells a 'competing' form of transportation. If everyone in Brighton saw that the A Line was at least functioning (hey, the B Line is still heavily patronized despite all of its fatal flaws), they would likely have been less apt to purchase vehicles from him. It's as simple as that.

Omaja -- you, F-Line and Riff share the tendancy to obsess on one particular aspect or issue and then to try to fit everything to your "personal model of what reality should be"

I can believe that HC might have legitimate issues due to: the additional noise; conjestion effects of street-running LR: possible having a direct impact on how some of his dealerships operate along Comm Ave and even possible Brighton Ave -- but to suggest that HC is running a personal campaign to kill transit to sell cars -- boggles the mind

I sincerely doubt that outside of the above direct effects on his dealiships -- that if (not that it will happen) the A branch of the Green Line was restored -- HC would give a flip. I further doubt that there would be any significant decline in sales of anything that he sells -- well ok perhaps some Vespas

If your HC Conspiracy against Transit Theory (HCCATT) had any validity -- HC would be running a major campaign against the Green Line to Medford and Sommerville and even more agressively against the Assembly Sq. Orange Line Station as these are much more likely to happen than any restoration of street running LR to Brighton and the Sommerville projects just happen to be adjacent to the HC Cos. Hq at "Mercedes of Boston" on the McGrath Highway in Sommerville

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Omaja -- you, F-Line and Riff share the tendancy to obsess on one particular aspect or issue and then to try to fit everything to your "personal model of what reality should be"

You gotta admit, he's on a trollin' roll today, folks.

 

[metasyntactic]

I don't see how it could be at all surprising that business interests can be motivated to help eliminate transit, especially in this country with its history of streetcar conspiracy.

 

[whighlander]

I don't see how it could be at all surprising that business interests can be motivated to help eliminate transit, especially in this country with its history of streetcar conspiracy.

Meta -- you're going to have to do a lot better than that one -- the conspiracy involved subsituting buses for trolleys

Last time I checked -- none of Herb's dealerships sold buses

Indeed transit might be viewed as a selling point for Herb's verus his competitors -- consider the following HC Boston dealership commercial - "my Boston dealerships are all on the restored Green Line A branch providing easy access for those who don't yet have a car as well as providing a convenient place for service". -- I'm HC and I approved this ad -- LOL

 

[Justin7]

We need some more information, Whigh. Do you have any idea what breakfast cereal Mr. Chambers prefers? A full list of his top ten favorite cereals would be extremely helpful. Thanks.

 

[ant8904]

whighlander - I have to write you rebuttal to the streetcar scandal is absurd. The motivating forces of that event was to kill off trolleys to expand the market for all motorized vehicles - not just for buses. It is a perfect reasonable example of an industry that have a vested interested against another type of industry. It is perfectly reasonable for Herb Chambers to be against the A-line and the thinking that "it would be bad for my business" might not be highly sympathizable, but it is quite understandable.

The thing that bothers me is you're trying really hard to defend Herb Chambers. If you just want to state that you find the other posters belief in Herb Chamber's role to be overstated, that's a reasonable point. But you are defending him at a level more akin that you have vested ideological reason (as in the opposite type to Matthew) than rational skepticism or willingness to give the benefit of a doubt to Herb Chamber's character and business policies.

 

[whighlander]

whighlander - I have to write you rebuttal to the streetcar scandal is absurd. The motivating forces of that event was to kill off trolleys to expand the market for all motorized vehicles - not just for buses. It is a perfect reasonable example of an industry that have a vested interested against another type of industry. It is perfectly reasonable for Herb Chambers to be against the A-line and the thinking that "it would be bad for my business" might not be highly sympathizable, but it is quite understandable.

The thing that bothers me is you're trying really hard to defend Herb Chambers. If you just want to state that you find the other posters belief in Herb Chamber's role to be overstated, that's a reasonable point. But you are defending him at a level more akin that you have vested ideological reason (as in the opposite type to Matthew) than rational skepticism or willingness to give the benefit of a doubt to Herb Chamber's character and business policies.

Ant -- Herb's bio talks of his growing-up in Dorchester -- presumably in the 1950's and 1960's -- later he started A-copy, a company fixing copiers in Cambridge, which he later built into a major player in the game -- the foundation of his fortune

I'm sure that the reason for his "deep seated hatred of the A branch restoration" must be rooted in either Herb's shock at first seeting the ugliness of the Broadway Station (circa 1963), or perhaps the lack of a train to get him to a customer at Sears in Porter Sq. when he was changing a toner cartridge. Come to think of it -- it's got to be the latter as Herb sold A-copy to Ikon in 1983 -- just before the Porter Station opened.

You can't be serious that Herb Chambers cares about restoring A-branch because it would gut the global market for automobiles

Ant -- at the root of it -- I would prefer to trust the private sector and the individual to earn and dispose of $ much more than I do public sector -- especially when the public sector keeps expanding its definition of " The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States." "

 

[ant8904]

Ant -- Herb's bio talks of his growing-up in Dorchester -- presumably in the 1950's and 1960's -- later he started A-copy, a company fixing copiers in Cambridge, which he later built into a major player in the game -- the foundation of his fortune

I'm sure that the reason for his "deep seated hatred of the A branch restoration" must be rooted in either Herb's shock at first seeting the ugliness of the Broadway Station (circa 1963), or perhaps the lack of a train to get him to a customer at Sears in Porter Sq. when he was changing a toner cartridge. Come to think of it -- it's got to be the latter as Herb sold A-copy to Ikon in 1983 -- just before the Porter Station opened.

You can't be serious that Herb Chambers cares about restoring A-branch because it would gut the global market for automobiles

You see, the above with so much citation to Herb Chamber's life and you heard of his bio talks and etc seems to say you have more of a personal interest in him or a certain way of thinking than just voicing that you doubt Herb Chamber's care that much because you don't think it would hurt his bottom line enough.

I can perfectly see skepticism of Herb Chamber's role about the A-line. That seeing he have like 50 stores and everything, he probably not concern enough about it to campaign against it and send people and resources to block it. I can see an argument Herb Chambers launched an active campaign to block is it absurd.

I can also see the argument that he would have voted against it if someone gave him the chance to vote. Seeing that he has a number of places along the line, it is likely the city came up to him to ask if he wants it or not... and I would imagine he would have said "no."

Its like an incident that occurred to my parents when a developer came up to the block my parents live and wants to build a full fledge condo building in a block where it is pretty much single or double family houses (the lot was a small apartment that burned down and he wants to knock the rest of the row down to build a full fledge condo). Seeing my parents live on that block though reasonably distant to not feel the construction, they don't care that much, but the city still asked for their opinion, and my parents responded that they have to say aren't a fan of it.

Ant -- at the root of it -- I would prefer to trust the private sector and the individual to earn and dispose of $ much more than I do public sector -- especially when the public sector keeps expanding its definition of " The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States." "

I don't trust the private sector anymore than the public sector. Herb Chambers is no better than the city of Boston or the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. At the very least, I'm not going to automatically assume Herb Chambers just because he is a private businessman is going to be as someone to trust. Just as the government. You seem to really know this man judging by how much description of you already gave of his life and business. But you deny that you are defending him and his character as a personal friend or acquaintance. Instead you defend him... and it seem to be based on reason that you trust private sector business people. I rather you defend him if you know him as a personal friend. Because we all have seen plenty of how trust-able private companies and businesses the past decade.

 

[Matthew]

Hey! Not wanting to get run over by a car is a "vested ideological" stance?

 

[HenryAlan]

I have no idea what Herb's personal wealth or assets have to do with the discussion at hand. He had a vested business interest in removing working public transit from his front door where he sells a 'competing' form of transportation. If everyone in Brighton saw that the A Line was at least functioning (hey, the B Line is still heavily patronized despite all of its fatal flaws), they would likely have been less apt to purchase vehicles from him. It's as simple as that.

It serves the purpose of demonstrating his status as a one percenter. Whighlander sees virtue in this, therefore it proves that Herb didn't destroy the A-line. Or something like that.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I can also see the argument that he would have voted against it if someone gave him the chance to vote. Seeing that he has a number of places along the line, it is likely the city came up to him to ask if he wants it or not... and I would imagine he would have said "no."

Yes. And when you have friends in high places and keep in close touch with them you get your opinion sampled on those matters much more often than Joe Allstonian. Opposition isn't a high-effort proposition requiring jihad-level ferocity when it comes from VIP's of HC's scale. We're talking along the lines of...1) "I have some concerns about storefront impacts, but my site managers can speak to those issues more specifically than I can", 2) "Frankly, I'm not sure why it's good business for the city to chase this turkey...but that's your prerogative if you want to do it". Probably delivered while he's multi-tasking in his office or talking into his cell above the grand opening ceremony of some new dealership in Connecticut. City Hall is already treating the neighborhood as flyover country and disproportionately cherry-picking who it chooses to listen to. Establishing ambivalence or mild annoyance at it and concern-trolling a couple fiddly bits pretty much all that's needed to set that narrative. It's similar to how the 'rights' of double-parked delivery trucks in JP Center ended up finding equal weight in the city's eyes with a much larger and more vocal group of trolley proponents. Sampling bias favored them from the get-go.

Herb is in a kind of stratosphere where he doesn't have to think about hard-sell advocacy. The sampling bias is simply there in his favor. It's one of the perks of membership. He doesn't have to break a sweat to affect the weather in small spaces like Allston neighborhood politics.


But, hey, enough about Herb. And all the projections and imaginary ArchBoston vendettas about Herb that whigh feels the need to thread-derail with "WTF am I reading?"-level obtuseness. Herb's just doin' what a Herb's gotta do for a Herb's self-interest. Nothing wrong with that. What's wrong here is this longstanding pattern of certain neighborhoods and their residents being concern-trolled by their own City Hall, and the zero-sum pointlessness of it all. What kind of brainrot led us to the mindset that the whole of the complexity of Allston-Brighton can be plotted on a map as solid-color blotches marked "Harvard", "BU", and "Herb"...and on certain days of the week maybe a New Balance or WGBH. Exactly how far insulated from ward politics roots does one have to get before your city looks that simplistic to your own eyes?

 

[Equilibria]

Yes. And when you have friends in high places and keep in close touch with them you get your opinion sampled on those matters much more often than Joe Allstonian

...and on certain days of the week maybe a New Balance or WGBH. Exactly how far insulated from ward politics roots does one have to get before your city looks that simplistic to your own eyes?

That to me is the point of all this. The key to winning public infrastructure projects is to gain the support of powerful, involved people both in the private and public sector. Brighton will have a Commuter Rail station thanks to New Balance, Yawkey is being rebuilt thanks to Rosenthal, the Mayor of Somerville won an additional GL station for his town (thanks in no small part to the political ambitions of himself and his predecessors).

Chicago has this dumb plan for its "L" stations where is will sell naming rights to make general fund money. This hurts wayfinding and builds no community spirit for the system. On the other hand, I could totally support a program for naming stations in return for significant investments in those stations. St. Elizabeth's, for instance, could probably use a transit connection (I see the one at Newton Wellesley used pretty heavily and that's in the suburbs) and could be convinced to chip in as part of a capital plan.

Because roads are inhabited by privitized vehicles, they're backed by far more private interests and money than public transit is (this wasn't always the case, as streetcar suburbs demonstrate). Perhaps part of the solution is to try to level the playing field and get private interests behind transit more.

 

[Kahta]

Allston is filled with transient students from outside of massachusetts or hipsters that can't afford a car.

Plus, who in their right mind would buy a BMW or Porsche and park it on the street in Allston? It's obviously people from Brookline and Newton that are buying the cars there. Take a trip through allston/Brighton and tell me how many Herb Chambers cars you see....

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Allston is filled with transient students from outside of massachusetts or hipsters that can't afford a car.

Plus, who in their right mind would buy a BMW or Porsche and park it on the street in Allston? It's obviously people from Brookline and Newton that are buying the cars there. Take a trip through allston/Brighton and tell me how many Herb Chambers cars you see....

Lots.

You might be surprised at how much of daddy's credit card money gets spent to equip Precious Snowflake with a nice ride when they enroll at BU. I think my first-ever "the rich aren't like you and me" moment in the big city was nearly 16 years ago as a newly minted BU freshman, waiting in a dining hall line while the kid in front of me was executing a $43,000 wire transfer from dad in Bahrain over his cell phone, then turning to his friend and saying "So what color Benz do you think I should get?"

That's one noteworthy extreme. But honestly, look at kids' Sweet 16 birthdays and some of the bling parents buy their even younger, more hormonally-compromised little monsters without regard to how much debt they're currently lugging around on the family ledger. A trip to Herb's on move-in day for a Certified Pre-Owned is mundane enough to be an expected rite-of-passage for a not-inconsequential subset of families. Especially if they're on footing to float a sizable-enough share of BU tuition themselves. Actually, so do many who can't float the tuition.


In short: Parents just don't understand.

 

[Kahta]

Lots.

You might be surprised at how much of daddy's credit card money gets spent to equip Precious Snowflake with a nice ride when they enroll at BU. I think my first-ever "the rich aren't like you and me" moment in the big city was nearly 16 years ago as a newly minted BU freshman, waiting in a dining hall line while the kid in front of me was executing a $43,000 wire transfer from dad in Bahrain over his cell phone, then turning to his friend and saying "So what color Benz do you think I should get?"

That's one noteworthy extreme. But honestly, look at kids' Sweet 16 birthdays and some of the bling parents buy their even younger, more hormonally-compromised little monsters without regard to how much debt they're currently lugging around on the family ledger. A trip to Herb's on move-in day for a Certified Pre-Owned is mundane enough to be an expected rite-of-passage for a not-inconsequential subset of families. Especially if they're on footing to float a sizable-enough share of BU tuition themselves. Actually, so do many who can't float the tuition.


In short: Parents just don't understand.

Few and far between though-- I've dated a few girls/women that live in that area and the ones that owned cars owned them because they worked in 128 or across the river in cambridge and didn't want to have to deal with the B-line and transfer to the red line twice a day.

Fun fact: buying an expensive car reduces your assets and increases your financial aid because a car is not considered a liquid asset that can be sold to fund college tuition.

 

[omaja]

Omaja -- you, F-Line and Riff share the tendancy to obsess on one particular aspect or issue and then to try to fit everything to your "personal model of what reality should be"

On the flipside, I would argue that you have a tendency to inaccurately extrapolate data and interject irrelevant asides into the conversation in order to validate your point of view when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

If your HC Conspiracy against Transit Theory (HCCATT) had any validity -- HC would be running a major campaign against the Green Line to Medford and Sommerville and even more agressively against the Assembly Sq. Orange Line Station as these are much more likely to happen than any restoration of street running LR to Brighton and the Sommerville projects just happen to be adjacent to the HC Cos. Hq at "Mercedes of Boston" on the McGrath Highway in Sommerville

No. The Herb Chambers franchise is significantly larger and more diversified now. It is really an exercise in elementary business risk management. The dealerships in Allston were some of his first and, therefore, constituted a much larger percentage of his revenue. The conspiracy rhetoric to discredit legitimately logical assertions is tiresome. Business is business, plain and simple.

Few and far between though-- I've dated a few girls/women that live in that area and the ones that owned cars owned them because they worked in 128 or across the river in cambridge and didn't want to have to deal with the B-line and transfer to the red line twice a day.

Fun fact: buying an expensive car reduces your assets and increases your financial aid because a car is not considered a liquid asset that can be sold to fund college tuition.

Who said Allston was the only market for these dealerships in the first place? There's a significant population in Brighton that consists of young professionals and families as well. Bottom line: having a more extensive transit undermines the necessity of cars and that is a soundly logical business reason why Herb Chambers would have opposed re-instituting A Line service to Watertown.