A-Line Reactivation

[whighlander]

I don't trust the private sector anymore than the public sector. Herb Chambers is no better than the city of Boston or the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. At the very least, I'm not going to automatically assume Herb Chambers just because he is a private businessman is going to be as someone to trust. Just as the government. You seem to really know this man judging by how much description of you already gave of his life and business. But you deny that you are defending him and his character as a personal friend or acquaintance. Instead you defend him... and it seem to be based on reason that you trust private sector business people. I rather you defend him if you know him as a personal friend. Because we all have seen plenty of how trust-able private companies and businesses the past decade.

Ant -- It is quite simple:
If you don't like Herb's politics, cars, architecture of his dealerships, commercials, shape of his face, fact that he's originally from Dorchester, etc., etc -- you are always free to "Come on Down" and buy your Honda from Mr. Bach Jr., or your Ford from Dave Dinger if he still can do it; or you can put 0 down at Ira.

In my case -- My wife and I on the advice of an elderly friend and neightbor went to the HC Honda shop in Burlington and twice over about 5 years we wrote the HC Co's a fairly large check. Prior to our first HC Honda, From the first car that we bought after we were marrried we had always owned cars manufactured by US-based automotive companies (Ford and Chrysler) -- so it took some convincing to go and even look at a Honda.

However, our friend had owned 2 Hondas in sequence, both of which she bought from the HC Honda dealership in Burlington and she always took her car there for service and she said had never had any issues. Now this neighbor is known in the neighborhood for being very very picky on service issues with any contractors and has had legendary battles with Home Depot over lesss than thriving plants which she had purchased.

So, while skeptical of Hondas, based on her strong recomendation we went, looked, test-drove a couple and bought one for my wife. At the time I was driving my brother's Ford Escort Wagon. My wife owned her Honda for over 4 years while i continued to drive my brother's Ford Escort Wagon, followed by a 2nd used Ford Escort Wagon. When the 2nd one was essentially disintegrating -- my wife offered me her Honda on the premise that she would buy another one at HC Honda in Burlington.

That is the sum total of my personal motivation for tending to trust HC Cos., and by extension Herb Chambers -- we've had good service both routine and some repairs of some components; no problems with the dealership team on any matters; and we'll probably buy another Honda from Herb in 5 or so years.

On the side of government -- if you don't like the policies, etc., and you do all that you can to change the personel through the electoral system -- all in vain -- well I guess you can always do what RR called "Vote wih your feet." As a result -- I'm kind of a believer in minimum neccessary government -- and in particular I favor less government the further that the Town Hall or equivalent is located from where you live and your place of business.

In other words -- her're the bottom line:
1) if you don't like a business -- take your business elseware and you can even put up a Facebook page to recruit others to boycot the business.
2) If the Town does a lousy job repaving your street -- you can always complain to the local officials -- you might actualy get satisfaction.
3) If the state decides to obliterate your back yard for a Freeway off-ramp or Highspeed Rail power station -- you have a far less likely chance of influencing the outcome.
4) If the Feds decide that your company is emitting too much of some infintesimal concentration of some gas, liquid, etc. -- you may in the end win through the courts -- but you'll go bankrupt in the process.
5) Thankfully, so far the UN can take its edicts and pronouncements to the warmer parts of Hades domain -- i'm personally doing what I can to get to 351

 

[whighlander]

On the flipside, I would argue that you have a tendency to inaccurately extrapolate data and interject irrelevant asides into the conversation in order to validate your point of view when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.



No. The Herb Chambers franchise is significantly larger and more diversified now. It is really an exercise in elementary business risk management. The dealerships in Allston were some of his first and, therefore, constituted a much larger percentage of his revenue. The conspiracy rhetoric to discredit legitimately logical assertions is tiresome. Business is business, plain and simple.



Who said Allston was the only market for these dealerships in the first place? There's a significant population in Brighton that consists of young professionals and families as well. Bottom line: having a more extensive transit undermines the necessity of cars and that is a soundly logical business reason why Herb Chambers would have opposed re-instituting A Line service to Watertown.

Omaja -- is it pure idealogical drive aginst capitalisim, fear of automotive-induced heat death of the planet" or did Herb or his minions do something explicit to you to elict this mono-mania

Up till yesterday -- I had no idea that Herb Chambers had written a manifesto about how he would move all of his dealerships outside of Boston if the A-Line was restored -- who knew

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Omaja -- is it pure idealogical drive aginst capitalisim, fear of automotive-induced heat death of the planet" or did Herb or his minions do something explicit to you to elict this mono-mania

Up till yesterday -- I had no idea that Herb Chambers had written a manifesto about how he would move all of his dealerships outside of Boston if the A-Line was restored -- who knew

I didn't either...until you wrote it and put it in our mouths. I don't know what brought on this spate of passive-aggressive obtuseness-for-obtuseness's sake posts over the last 36 hours, but it was a whimsical read the occasional times it veered somewhere in the general direction of on-topic.

 

[omaja]

Omaja -- is it pure idealogical drive aginst capitalisim, fear of automotive-induced heat death of the planet" or did Herb or his minions do something explicit to you to elict this mono-mania

Up till yesterday -- I had no idea that Herb Chambers had written a manifesto about how he would move all of his dealerships outside of Boston if the A-Line was restored -- who knew

Do you read what anyone on this board actually writes? This is purely fabricated, nonsensical garbage.

 

[ant8904]

Ant -- It is quite simple:
If you don't like Herb's politics, cars, architecture of his dealerships, commercials, shape of his face, fact that he's originally from Dorchester, etc., etc -- you are always free to "Come on Down" and buy your Honda from Mr. Bach Jr., or your Ford from Dave Dinger if he still can do it; or you can put 0 down at Ira.

The quote of me was trying to point out that you seem to be giving blind faith in the good intentions of Herb Chambers while not trusting how well government can do its job (and if you trying to say that being customers with good experiences with his business earned your trust, then you are giving out trust way too easily).

I'm trying to say that you shouldn't give automatic faith to either and only trust as far as their self-interest will and only more if they proved differently (like if you know Herb Chambers personally).

So how in the world that this means I don't like Herb and therefore the correct response is to look at the dozens of competing car dealerships?

----

That said, much of my argument is you seem to giving a staunch defense of Herb Chambers. But not in a way that you are just merely skeptical that he can have that much impact or would exercise enough influence to really have an impact... but in a way that implies you really taking defense of his character personally. Either that means you know he is innocent because you know him personally (which is a perfectly reasonable reason and not a claim of bias) or you don't like to hear any type of negative talk about business people (now this is a claim of bias).


You see...


There's...

Hey guys, I doubt Herb was really that responsible for the A-line closure. He's not going to care that much and I think the impact on his business is actually pretty miniscule.

and then there's

Herb's bio talks of his growing-up in Dorchester -- presumably in the 1950's and 1960's...

...owns about 50 automotive dealerships scattered across the entire Greater Boston metro region and a few other places in New England -- his group is the 5th largest auto dealership enterprise in the US -- selling over a B$ worth of cars each year and some Vespas on the side. Over 1700 employees work for the various dealerships and the HQ operations...

...I counted 4 separate HC dealierships located on Comm Ave + 2 on Brighton Ave -- all the rest of the 47 separate locations are outside the Boston City limits -- the HQ for the HC Co's is at his Mercedes dealership next to McGrath Highway in Sommerville...

Do you see the different of tone and implication of motivation behind the two way to write about Herb Chambers? Do you see how your quotes doesn't seem to arguing anything about his stance towards the A-line, but it saying a lot of how much you know of him but somehow not a personal friend of him. How your responses sounds like like a commercial of him and his business rather than any argument to put doubt on his role.


----

I had no idea that Herb Chambers had written a manifesto about how he would move all of his dealerships outside of Boston if the A-Line was restored -- who knew

As the posters above me have pointed out. In no way anyone here claimed he launched a full campaign leveraging his full influence and personal-political capital. The fact you are reading and how you gave a response to me that have nothing to do with what I said unless you read that my posts is motivated by a direct dislike to him and his business indicates you reading with a colored lens.

So like me requote this:

Its like an incident that occurred to my parents when a developer came up to the block my parents live and wants to build a full fledge condo building in a block where it is pretty much single or double family houses (the lot was a small apartment that burned down and he wants to knock the rest of the row down to build a full fledge condo). Seeing my parents live on that block though reasonably distant to not feel the construction, they don't care that much, but the city still asked for their opinion, and my parents responded that they have to say aren't a fan of it.

Also the subsequent F-Line

when you have friends in high places and keep in close touch with them you get your opinion sampled on those matters much more often than Joe Allstonian. Opposition isn't a high-effort proposition requiring jihad-level ferocity when it comes from VIP's of HC's scale. We're talking along the lines of...1) "I have some concerns about storefront impacts, but my site managers can speak to those issues more specifically than I can", 2) "Frankly, I'm not sure why it's good business for the city to chase this turkey...but that's your prerogative if you want to do it". Probably delivered while he's multi-tasking in his office or talking into his cell above the grand opening ceremony of some new dealership in Connecticut.

Did those seems to say he wrote to the Globe that "I will take all my business outside Boston and fire all my employees if you open the A-line" Absolutely now. In fact, I can agree that the two above quotes is purely speculative. And you could have argued that. The only information that I know was quoted from newspapers that only said something like "The former A-line did attempted to be restored in the early 90's but met opposition from certain business owners." That can be any business owners. So unless the other posters can show something that he directly intervene or was there when the meetings about the A-line was being debated (or so I think there was some kind of community meeting), it is all speculative.

But as I watched you respond back. I have to note that you seem to be writing from a different line of thinking than seeing skepticism in the claims of the other posters.

 

[underground]

Seriously, don't reply to libertarians about politics or economics unless you want to spend a lot of time going down a really long and convoluted rabbit hole. This is, like, life lesson #45738.

 

[ant8904]

Seriously, don't reply to libertarians about politics or economics unless you want to spend a lot of time going down a really long and convoluted rabbit hole. This is, like, life lesson #45738.

I have to object to that because a lot my views do lean libertarian. I actually do support Ron Paul out of all the candidates on the Republicans side. But my views keeps a skepticism to capitalism (I recognize that capitalism works until the profit motive start to override any ethical consideration and longer time profits). If whighlander is a libertarian, then the way he is arguing seemingly with so much faith to business not the best face of liberterians.

 

[Justin7]

Seriously, don't reply to Whighlander about anything unless you want to spend a lot of time going down a really long and convoluted rabbit hole.

Fixed.

 

[whighlander]

Fixed.

That is an irrational response

If you don't like my view about capitalim versus governmentalism -- don't read those posts

I think if you do a analysis of my posts -- most don't deal with such matters -- they deal wih my views on aesthetics and cities

If you don't care about those -- well that's your decision also

What usually generates the kind of response that you are claiming dominates all of my posts -- its when someone makes unsubstantiated claims about something (e.g. Herb Chambers and the "highly unlikely" restoration of the A-Line) and then when they are called on it -- by myself or someone else -- they double down by making statements such as its obvious that someone with many dealerships would oppose transit in general.

So I was curious about Herb's background and googled him -- that's where I obtained the information about his growing up in Dorchester and founding A-Copy in Cambridge. I thought that others might be interested in how someone could go from modest means to being a Billiionaire in a couple of decades -- not by hitting the Facebook lottery -- but by hardwork building up a cluster of automobile dealerships which seem to be highly rated as a place to do business by his success and also highly rated as a place to work (top standing a couple of years by the Globe)

the rest was just fun and mind games -- I've no inside information about whether Herb Chmbers Cos. have made any formal or informal comments regarding the -- unlikely at best desire of some to have the A-Line restored

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

the rest was just fun and mind games -- I've no inside information about whether Herb Chmbers Cos. have made any formal or informal comments regarding the -- unlikely at best desire of some to have the A-Line restored

^^This bears repeating.


He's freely admitting he's trolling the board this week, if that wasn't obvious enough. Nothing to see here.

 

[omaja]

What usually generates the kind of response that you are claiming dominates all of my posts -- its when someone makes unsubstantiated claims about something (e.g. Herb Chambers and the "highly unlikely" restoration of the A-Line) and then when they are called on it -- by myself or someone else -- they double down by making statements such as its obvious that someone with many dealerships would oppose transit in general.

Give me a break. Whereas everyone else localized arguments specifically on Allston-Brighton, the A Line, and Herb's rather significant operations along Brighton and Commonwealth Avenues, you generalized and hyperbolized in order to strip the discussion of any meaning.

I still am not sure why you find it difficult to believe a car salesman wouldn't like the idea of restoring a well-patronized, efficient (in terms of ability to move a lot of people) mode of transportation at his front door. The bigger issue at hand, though, is that City Hall let the businesses (not necessarily only Herb Chambers) along Brighton Avenue win at the expense of the greater Allston-Brighton community.

 

[Lurker]

What killed the A line restoration is the same thing that killed the E line to Forest Hills: the Bostonian God given right to double parking. Every anti-urban one story strip mall style business can't fathom having customers park in the back of the building and with the current transient nature of Alston/Brighton's population there wasn't a solid constituency beyond the businesses to have an opinion about transit.

JP was similar until the yuppies moved in. Now the pretentious eco-friendly phonies want a place to park the Prius and not have to look at the overhead catenary on top of the double parking hungry businesses. Give it a few years, after they've killed the entire E line for 'better bus service', and they'll be after the 39 bus just like the 57 has been cut back.

What would stop this anti-transit nonsense is smart metering every space which is currently 2hr commercial parking in the entire city. Right now the businesses are getting a nice subsidy through the free use of public space for their customers. If all of a sudden parking had a cost to their customers, or a cost directly charged to to their business to get their customers cars to the location, the businesses would be begging for transit to their front door.

 

[whighlander]

What killed the A line restoration is the same thing that killed the E line to Forest Hills: the Bostonian God given right to double parking. Every anti-urban one story strip mall style business can't fathom having customers park in the back of the building and with the current transient nature of Alston/Brighton's population there wasn't a solid constituency beyond the businesses to have an opinion about transit....

What would stop this anti-transit nonsense is smart metering every space which is currently 2hr commercial parking in the entire city. Right now the businesses are getting a nice subsidy through the free use of public space for their customers. If all of a sudden parking had a cost to their customers, or a cost directly charged to to their business to get their customers cars to the location, the businesses would be begging for transit to their front door.

Lurk -- I don't know why you and the other members of "rail transit at any cost anonuymous" -- can't do the simple arithmetic of supply and demand.

Even in the denser parts of Boston, most of the customers of any establishment except for a purely local store or restaurant arrive by car. Why -- because in most cases its not that convenient or impossible to take only rail transit from point to point.

The T conveniently provides a service on their website which enables you to try routing yourself from point A to point B. Try it sometime from a location -- not in the burbs -- but not in downtown Boston -- say from near Mayor Menino's house to say Kenmore Square for dinner at the Eastern Standard

Here's what it takes:
Itinerary 1 - Approx. 69 mins.

1) WalkingWalk For 10 Mins. To Readville Station
2) Commuter Rail ServiceTake Fairmount Line - South Station To South Station view route
5:06 PM Depart from Readville Station
5:31 PM Arrive at South Station
3) Subway ServiceTake Red Line - Alewife To Park St Station view route
Approx. 5:37 PM Depart from South Station - Inbound
Approx. 5:42 PM Arrive at Park St Station - to Alewife
4) Subway ServiceTake Green- B Line - Boston College To Kenmore Station view route
Approx. 5:50 PM Depart from Park St Station - Green Line - B Berth
Approx. 6:02 PM Arrive at Kenmore Station - Outbound
5) WalkingWalk For 3 Mins. To 528 Commonwealth Ave, Boston

Now I can easily drive that point to point in under 1/2 hour

Now we have dinner from 6:30 PM to 8:00 PM

Time to go home:

We got lucky --although this routing included a bus but it included the obligatory rail
Itinerary 1 - 45 mins.

1) Bus Service8 Harbor Point Via Umass & So Bay Ctr view route
8:30 PM Depart from Kenmore Station Busway
8:41 PM Arrive at Ruggles Sta - upper level
2) Commuter Rail ServiceTake Franklin Line - Forge Park / 495 To Readville view route
8:58 PM Depart from Ruggles Station
9:08 PM Arrive at Readville
3) WalkingWalk For 7 Mins. To Danny And Reynold Roads, Hyde Park

However -- this point A to point B ended at a T station -- let's try a route to a Scullers, a nice Jazz Club on the River

Itinerary 1 - Approx. 99 mins.

1) WalkingWalk For 8 Mins. To Hyde Park Ave & Milton St
2) Bus Service32 Forest Hills Sta Via Hyde Park Ave view route
8:50 PM Depart from Hyde Park Ave & Milton St
9:04 PM Arrive at Forest Hills Station Lower Busway
3) Bus Service21 Ashmont Sta Via Morton St view route
9:10 PM Depart from Forest Hills Station Lower Busway
9:25 PM Arrive at Ashmont Station
4) Subway ServiceTake Red Line - Alewife To Central Sq - Outbound view route
Approx. 9:32 PM Depart from Ashmont Station Red Line Inbound
Approx. 9:58 PM Arrive at Central Sq - Outbound
5) Bus Service64 Oak Square Via No Beacon St view route
10:12 PM Depart from Green St & Magazine St
10:17 PM Arrive at Cambridge St & Mass Pike
6) WalkingWalk For 4 Mins. To 400 Soldiers Field Road, Boston, Ma

Now after a couple of sets -- we head home

Itinerary 2 - Approx. 99 mins. [note Itinerary 1 was all bus and took longer]

1) WalkingWalk For 4 Mins. To Cambridge St & Mass Pike Exit
2) Bus Service64 Central Sq Via No Beacon St view route
11:54 PM Depart from Cambridge St & Mass Pike Exit
12:04 AM Arrive at Massachusetts Ave & Sidney St
3) Bus Service1 Dudley Sta Via Mass Ave view route
12:09 AM Depart from Massachusetts Ave & Sidney St
12:18 AM Arrive at Massachusetts Ave & Massachusetts Ave Station
4) Subway ServiceTake Orange Line - Forest Hills To Forest Hills Orange Line view route
Approx. 12:38 AM Depart from Massachusetts Ave Sta - Outbound
Approx. 12:48 AM Arrive at Forest Hills Orange Line
5) Bus Service32 Wolcott Sq Via Hyde Pk Ave view route
1:05 AM Depart from Forest Hills Station Lower Busway
1:21 AM Arrive at Hyde Park Ave & Milton St
6) WalkingWalk For 8 Mins. To Danny And Reynold Roads, Hyde Park

In my mind -- I drive if I can as the risk of getting stuck somewhere is too great -- too many connections just need to be perfect

I'd really like to see the response from the "Transit at all costs" cohort

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

What killed the A line restoration is the same thing that killed the E line to Forest Hills: the Bostonian God given right to double parking.

Not to cut in here, but the MBTA has an anti-street running policy now: no new construction of tracking on-street. All new construction is either elevated or underground. So, while the double parking certainly didn't HELP any, what really killed the restoration was an absolute refusal to be willing to restore existing or add new tracks in pavement where cut-and-cover, bored tunnels or median running (with or without grade crossings, preferably without) the tracks isn't/wasn't an option.

Lurk -- I don't know why you and the other members of "rail transit at any cost anonuymous" -- can't do the simple arithmetic of supply and demand.

Even in the denser parts of Boston, most of the customers of any establishment except for a purely local store or restaurant arrive by car. Why -- because in most cases its not that convenient or impossible to take only rail transit from point to point.

The T conveniently provides a service on their website which enables you to try routing yourself from point A to point B. Try it sometime from a location -- not in the burbs -- but not in downtown Boston -- say from near Mayor Menino's house to say Kenmore Square for dinner at the Eastern Standard

Here's what it takes:
Itinerary 1 - Approx. 69 mins.

1) WalkingWalk For 10 Mins. To Readville Station
2) Commuter Rail ServiceTake Fairmount Line - South Station To South Station view route
5:06 PM Depart from Readville Station
5:31 PM Arrive at South Station
3) Subway ServiceTake Red Line - Alewife To Park St Station view route
Approx. 5:37 PM Depart from South Station - Inbound
Approx. 5:42 PM Arrive at Park St Station - to Alewife
4) Subway ServiceTake Green- B Line - Boston College To Kenmore Station view route
Approx. 5:50 PM Depart from Park St Station - Green Line - B Berth
Approx. 6:02 PM Arrive at Kenmore Station - Outbound
5) WalkingWalk For 3 Mins. To 528 Commonwealth Ave, Boston

Now I can easily drive that point to point in under 1/2 hour

Now we have dinner from 6:30 PM to 8:00 PM

Time to go home:

We got lucky --although this routing included a bus but it included the obligatory rail
Itinerary 1 - 45 mins.

1) Bus Service8 Harbor Point Via Umass & So Bay Ctr view route
8:30 PM Depart from Kenmore Station Busway
8:41 PM Arrive at Ruggles Sta - upper level
2) Commuter Rail ServiceTake Franklin Line - Forge Park / 495 To Readville view route
8:58 PM Depart from Ruggles Station
9:08 PM Arrive at Readville
3) WalkingWalk For 7 Mins. To Danny And Reynold Roads, Hyde Park

However -- this point A to point B ended at a T station -- let's try a route to a Scullers, a nice Jazz Club on the River

Itinerary 1 - Approx. 99 mins.

1) WalkingWalk For 8 Mins. To Hyde Park Ave & Milton St
2) Bus Service32 Forest Hills Sta Via Hyde Park Ave view route
8:50 PM Depart from Hyde Park Ave & Milton St
9:04 PM Arrive at Forest Hills Station Lower Busway
3) Bus Service21 Ashmont Sta Via Morton St view route
9:10 PM Depart from Forest Hills Station Lower Busway
9:25 PM Arrive at Ashmont Station
4) Subway ServiceTake Red Line - Alewife To Central Sq - Outbound view route
Approx. 9:32 PM Depart from Ashmont Station Red Line Inbound
Approx. 9:58 PM Arrive at Central Sq - Outbound
5) Bus Service64 Oak Square Via No Beacon St view route
10:12 PM Depart from Green St & Magazine St
10:17 PM Arrive at Cambridge St & Mass Pike
6) WalkingWalk For 4 Mins. To 400 Soldiers Field Road, Boston, Ma

Now after a couple of sets -- we head home

Itinerary 2 - Approx. 99 mins. [note Itinerary 1 was all bus and took longer]

1) WalkingWalk For 4 Mins. To Cambridge St & Mass Pike Exit
2) Bus Service64 Central Sq Via No Beacon St view route
11:54 PM Depart from Cambridge St & Mass Pike Exit
12:04 AM Arrive at Massachusetts Ave & Sidney St
3) Bus Service1 Dudley Sta Via Mass Ave view route
12:09 AM Depart from Massachusetts Ave & Sidney St
12:18 AM Arrive at Massachusetts Ave & Massachusetts Ave Station
4) Subway ServiceTake Orange Line - Forest Hills To Forest Hills Orange Line view route
Approx. 12:38 AM Depart from Massachusetts Ave Sta - Outbound
Approx. 12:48 AM Arrive at Forest Hills Orange Line
5) Bus Service32 Wolcott Sq Via Hyde Pk Ave view route
1:05 AM Depart from Forest Hills Station Lower Busway
1:21 AM Arrive at Hyde Park Ave & Milton St
6) WalkingWalk For 8 Mins. To Danny And Reynold Roads, Hyde Park

In my mind -- I drive if I can as the risk of getting stuck somewhere is too great -- too many connections just need to be perfect

I'd really like to see the response from the "Transit at all costs" cohort

Point-to-point rail being not convenient is the fault of:
a) insufficient transit coverage
b) insufficient transit headways

The risk of 'getting stuck somewhere' is too great only when missing your bus or train means you're waiting more than 15 minutes - otherwise, you're not stuck, you're just impatient. And, in fact, we argue for expanded transit coverage so that it can be more convenient to take rail places.

Unlike some people, I don't hate cars. I hate it when 'well, just drive' is used as a reason to enable anti-transit arguments.

Your argument appears to be 'promoting expanded transit is anti-car,' which frames this in terms of opposition. You then say 'I drive because driving is better than transit,' which in turn cycles back into 'pro-transit is anti-car' and whoops - now we're in a vicious cycle where you are exacerbating your own argument.

Instead, by NOT framing an opposition argument, we can promote transit without being 'anti-car,' and the vicious cycle is broken now that transit improvements aren't inherently anti-car. Then, a funny thing happens, the transit system gets better, more coverage, smaller headways, you might prefer taking the train to paying for parking and risking getting your car broken into or something bad, et cetera.

 

[Matthew]

Even in the denser parts of Boston, most of the customers of any establishment except for a purely local store or restaurant arrive by car.

If you have any real numbers for this I'd love to see them.

And I don't mean weird choices like Sculler's, which is in a transit dead zone on a highway interchange. Looking at weird trips like Hyde Park to Kenmore is kind of pointless, since that kind of trip constitute an almost insignificant portion of the daily patronage.

If you want to pick a club, how about Paradise or Middle East? Bet ya most of those customers arrive by foot or transit.

People have a tendency to overestimate car volumes, I've noticed. Anything that's near a frequent subway or key bus route has a strong chance of picking up most of its customers from transit, not cars. There's a few exceptions for things like big box stores with big parking lots, but otherwise... You need a large parking lot to store and cycle through enough cars to generate a large driving customer base comparable to what mass transit can supply. Street parking is just not that plentiful.

 

[omaja]

I'd really like to see the response from the "Transit at all costs" cohort

For the umpteenth time, whigh, it seems like the only person who is playing a zero-sum game of transit versus cars is you. And as interesting as it may be to hypothesize a transit route for Menino to get from his home to somewhere in the Back Bay, let's try to bring this back to the topic at hand.

Certainly there will always be certain types of types that are optimal by car and certain types of people that will always opt for their cars over anything else. In the context of this discussion, having a functioning A Line does not preclude Brighton Ave/Cambridge St/Washington St corridor from functioning properly. Indeed, it would likely remove many of the very local trips (less than 3 miles) that people tend to do in cars now, if for no other reason than it being the only real option. Removing all of that really senseless local traffic helps pedestrians, cyclists, transit and remaining vehicles flow through the corridor much more efficiently.

No one is saying everyone should ditch their cars, but there is compelling density throughout the Boston area for more transit that would help the roads we do have work better.

 

[whighlander]

Not to cut in here, but the MBTA has an anti-street running policy now: no new construction of tracking on-street. All new construction is either elevated or underground. So, while the double parking certainly didn't HELP any, what really killed the restoration was an absolute refusal to be willing to restore existing or add new tracks in pavement where cut-and-cover, bored tunnels or median running (with or without grade crossings, preferably without) the tracks isn't/wasn't an option.



Point-to-point rail being not convenient is the fault of:
a) insufficient transit coverage
b) insufficient transit headways

The risk of 'getting stuck somewhere' is too great only when missing your bus or train means you're waiting more than 15 minutes - otherwise, you're not stuck, you're just impatient. And, in fact, we argue for expanded transit coverage so that it can be more convenient to take rail places.

Unlike some people, I don't hate cars. I hate it when 'well, just drive' is used as a reason to enable anti-transit arguments.

Your argument appears to be 'promoting expanded transit is anti-car,' which frames this in terms of opposition. You then say 'I drive because driving is better than transit,' which in turn cycles back into 'pro-transit is anti-car' and whoops - now we're in a vicious cycle where you are exacerbating your own argument.

Instead, by NOT framing an opposition argument, we can promote transit without being 'anti-car,' and the vicious cycle is broken now that transit improvements aren't inherently anti-car. Then, a funny thing happens, the transit system gets better, more coverage, smaller headways, you might prefer taking the train to paying for parking and risking getting your car broken into or something bad, et cetera.

Commute -- the statement "I drive if I can" was specific to the examples where coming home in the late evening depended on the ideal? cooperation of a number of buses and rail vehicles

The purpose of the Hyde Park to Kenmore and Scullers examples was to show that driving might be the opperative decision for someone living next to the Mayor going to not very exotice destinations just outside of downtown.

The examples were just to show that the existing radialy-structured rail transit system can not supply rail-only point to point service even within Boston's city limits -- buses are needed to cover many gaps -- or the alternative is to drive.

The point about getting stuck -- without reviving the debate about extended hours of service -- was just that given the current cut-off hours of service - -comming back from a not too-late-a-night at Scullers put one uncomfortably close to the hour of cessation of service for the evening

Personally -- there are plenty of times when coming from Lexington to Boston when faced with the question is how should I go -- the answers:
a) car -- drive all the way -- deal with parking, etc.
b) car+ transit - drive to Alewife park and take Red Line
c) Transit exclusively -- bus to Alewife or Harvard then Red LIne

and the most effective answer is b) or even c) -- but there are also plenty of times when the answer is to drive

 

[whighlander]

If you have any real numbers for this I'd love to see them.

And I don't mean weird choices like Sculler's, which is in a transit dead zone on a highway interchange. Looking at weird trips like Hyde Park to Kenmore is kind of pointless, since that kind of trip constitute an almost insignificant portion of the daily patronage.

If you want to pick a club, how about Paradise or Middle East? Bet ya most of those customers arrive by foot or transit.

People have a tendency to overestimate car volumes, I've noticed. Anything that's near a frequent subway or key bus route has a strong chance of picking up most of its customers from transit, not cars. There's a few exceptions for things like big box stores with big parking lots, but otherwise... You need a large parking lot to store and cycle through enough cars to generate a large driving customer base comparable to what mass transit can supply. Street parking is just not that plentiful.

Mathew -- I gues I'd say the same to you " "If you have any real numbers for this I'd love to see them."

The reason for my comment about cars being dominant is simple -except for purely local shops and restaurants -- the clientelle includes:
1) local walk-up -- mostly relevant in residential areas (hence the tacit exclusion of establishments serving a purely local clientelle)
2) people who arrive by T and then walk
3) people who drive to the venue explicitly and then park and walk
4) people dropped off by limos, taxis, friends, etc -- traveling in cars

When the universe of people from within the city limits of Boston is distributed among the whole of 1-4 and the universe of people from outside of Boston/Cambridge proper is restricted mostly to 3-4
And the numbers of people frequenting the establishments from outside of Boston / Cambride is quite a large fraction of the total

Then even without concrete numbers the answer is that 3, 4 will dominate over 2

For example -- what fraction of the people visiting the MFA take the T versus driving and parking in the MFA's lots and garage as well as on the surrounding streets?

My experience has been that when I'm on the Green Line E train heading to the MFA that only a relatively small number of people get off with me at the Museum Stop. Why do you think that is the case? I suspect it has to do with convenience for most of the visitors who arrive from outside of the HUB [Boston core roughly 1 km diameter centered on the State House] or even mostly the Hub (within Rt-128) of Greater Boston

 

[whighlander]

For the umpteenth time, whigh, it seems like the only person who is playing a zero-sum game of transit versus cars is you. And as interesting as it may be to hypothesize a transit route for Menino to get from his home to somewhere in the Back Bay, let's try to bring this back to the topic at hand.

Certainly there will always be certain types of types that are optimal by car and certain types of people that will always opt for their cars over anything else. In the context of this discussion, having a functioning A Line does not preclude Brighton Ave/Cambridge St/Washington St corridor from functioning properly. Indeed, it would likely remove many of the very local trips (less than 3 miles) that people tend to do in cars now, if for no other reason than it being the only real option. Removing all of that really senseless local traffic helps pedestrians, cyclists, transit and remaining vehicles flow through the corridor much more efficiently.

No one is saying everyone should ditch their cars, but there is compelling density throughout the Boston area for more transit that would help the roads we do have work better.

Omaja -- I've never said that there should not be improvements to the existing T system including some downtown. However, on a "Bank for your Buck" basis - -wether the buck is $ or your suasion of the legislature - -there are much more worthwhile trasit projects including:

1) Digging the Silver Line under D St.
2) Pedestrian link between Orange-Line platforms at DTX and State -- enabling the integration of Park, DTX, State and tieing all the lines together with some walking
3) Red / Blue connection at Charles

Those are all immenantly doable and further have a more global benefit to the system as they don't just restore some former street-running trolley branch, now seved by a bus -- they improve the reliablity and redundancy of the existing system

If you were restricting the choices to adding service -- I suggest that connecting the Green Line at Leachmere with Union Square in Sommerville and extending the Blue Line to Lynn would be ahead of A-Line restoration -- specifically because they don't involve running trolleys in the street.

 

[ant8904]

May we step back for a second. I'm not sure what's the debate at this point anymore. It looks like arguing for the sake of arguing.

I see two points right now: "large amount of people around the Boston area have to drive to Boston because there's no alternative" with a second point that "the current MBTA is bad multiple points or radial types of transit."

The other side seems to be in total reaction to the posts.

But the topics goes everywhere. For example, the last post seems to be arguing that if the MBTA do any project, then there are several projects that should be given more importance than the A-line (assuming the A-line would roughly cost the same as the rival project). In and of itself, that seems like a reasonable statement that most here can agree.

However, the posts had absolutely no debate which projects was should be given priority. The previous post all seem to be related around the point how the MBTA is bad to go point to point like the "Back Bay to Kenmore". So how does talking about "bang for your buck" have anything to do to address the previous topics. It just add a new tangent on top of other tangents.

I should note at this moment that of this address of "why does it matter the point-to-point is bad." The A-line restoration talk is about reviving the old line or perhaps another way to cover the hole in transit. Of course a restored A-line would be a terrible way make a trip from Brighton or Watertown to Cambridge. The MBTA by its design is called a "hub and spokes" system. A design that is efficient to get to the hub, but absolutely terrible for point-to-point by its own nature.

So again, let's step back here a second and state "what is the point of contention here regarding with the A-line?" Also "how did the previous points argues for or against the A-line and/or transit in general?"