Acela & Amtrak NEC (HSR BOS-NYP-WAS and branches only)

BosMaineiac said:
Never mind the through-running as that just seems way too pie-in-the-sky. The separated agencies and multiple states being involved would end up being way too complex.
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It's electrically impossible to thru-run everybody. Metro North EMU's can't run on 25 Hz overhead in New Jersey, LIRR EMU's can't run on any type of overhead (and they're not ordering M8 clones because those won't fit into Grand Central Madison),, NJT electrics can't run on LIRR third rail. The NJT dual-modes would slow the most congested parts of LIRR the hell down if they ran in any serious quantity, and the LIRR duals likewise on the NEC (plus there aren't physically enough of them to give it a try). LIRR's cab signals are incompatible with everyone else's, so there'd have to be signal mods to every piece of foreign equipment going to Long Island. MNRR New Haven points the wrong way for Long Island, and the Empire Connection (Hudson Line) points the wrong way for Jersey. The only possible run-thru that'll work with existing all-electric equipment is NJT locals to Stamford or expresses to New Haven, but that (esp. New Haven) starts seriously blurring the lines with what Amtrak does best so it's unclear what market there is for that.

The proposal assumes some sort of frictionless electronics that simply don't exist in the real world without billions of dollars in do-overs for the electrification schemes and/or for hyper-hyper-custom rolling stock orders.
 
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Stlin said:
So I recently came across this thing, and I really don't know what to think of it - I'm putting it here because NY Penn is the center of the Amtrak NEC universe, even as this isn't strictly a Amtrak thing, it would probably affect its operations. Apparently, a advocacy group called RethinkNYC has a series of proposals to revamp NYC area rail stations, the cornerstone of which appears to be a massive rethink of how trains transit through Penn. Basically, once the gateway tunnels into NJ are built, they want to pair match the East River tunnels and instead of having MTA LIRR/Metro North and NJ Transit trains terminate at Penn, through run LIRR trains into NJT territory and vice versa. they claim that doing so decreases traffic conflicts and dwells enough that you can then reduce the number of tracks at NYP by nearly half to accommodate wider platforms and more vertical circulation for a better passenger experience.

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In principle, that sounds like a reasonably rational thing to pursue, except for reality. For the moment disregarding the completely incompatible electrification technologies of LIRR and NJT, which they do as well, this seems to completely ignore the political realities of transit in the NYC Metro, which seems to be one of the most balkanized anywhere in the world - PATH, NYCT, NJT and the MTA Railroads all seem to just barely tolerate each others existence, not to mention perennial NY/NJ conflicts, so I really can't see them agreeing to this. These guys seem to have money and some heft to throw around, getting mainstream coverage and hosting events, but almost seem to completely handwave reality in favor of the ideal. I doubt their numbers stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Frankly, I can't tell if these guys are just NYC NIMBY types with money to throw at it.

Case in point, what caught my attention in the first place: This Bloomberg Article is likely paywalled, but they had an event to showcase 3 architectural visions for a "New Penn," but clearly their centerpiece is their proposal to rebuild the 1910 Penn Station. which can allegedly be done affordably "by employing newer fabrication technologies such as 3-D printing." The other designs were a glassy shell of Madison Square Garden thing, or a park and glass shell (See attached) - nothing vaguely allowing development of new buildings, which seems to be at least 70% of their objection to the Cuomo/Hochul plan, which they attack as a handout to billionaire developers. Unrealistic in almost every way, But would I love to experience a rebuilt Penn that feels like a airy modern global station? Yea, I would.

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Modernized Penn Station — Rethink Penn Station NYC

www.rethinkpennstationnyc.org www.rethinkpennstationnyc.org
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Another angle of the new penn proposal. It would be incredible if they built this!
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I thought the design of the new Penn station was already decided on?
 
cubalibre said:
I thought the design of the new Penn station was already decided on?
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There's an incredible amount of stuff still up in the air regarding the new Penn Station, but the new renderings show Madison Square Garden still present, squatting over the site like a sumo wrestler. Without removing Madison Square Garden, Penn Station will still be a rathole, no matter what glassy passageways are inserted and what LED lights are glued to the walls. It's really just a matter of the height from the underside of MSG to the top of the Penn concourses.

In July, the city has the option not to renew Madison Square Garden's operating permit. MSG's owner, James Dolan, is a mentally ill and paranoid right wing megabillionaire who uses facial recognition software on concert attendees and who forces unwilling patrons to listen to his vanity rock band. Even though the city gave him ten years to find a new location for MSG, and even though it would doom Penn Station, the city will probably still grant him his operating permit.

The work being done around Penn Station will mostly be facelift stuff, gluing new lights on things, adding some "soaring" passageways before you descend into the rathole. The real work will be the development of big new towers on and around the site, which will pretty much seal the deal on the rathole ever being remediated.
 
cubalibre said:
I thought the design of the new Penn station was already decided on?
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Speaking of - I haven't followed it for a while, are the still planning on razing the neighborhood around Penn for "redevelopment"? Hope that got scaled back/nixed, as it seemed pretty extreme even for NYC.
 
bakgwailo said:
Speaking of - I haven't followed it for a while, are the still planning on razing the neighborhood around Penn for "redevelopment"? Hope that got scaled back/nixed, as it seemed pretty extreme even for NYC.
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They are! And all that development money will go toward putting some skylights and wood paneling in one of the worst train stations in the world.
 
king_vibe said:
They are! And all that development money will go toward putting some skylights and wood paneling in one of the worst train stations in the world.
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Ugh, that's garbage. Having lived over there (33rd & 8th) for a few years many years ago, it's crazy to me that they would raze all of that - hell they just had a few brand new luxury buildings go up in the last 5-10 years. Plus it means Pizza Suprema dies which kills me a bit. Where's the NIMBYs when you need 'em? Also last I read it's questionable how much the development will actually pay for vs. being a pretty big giveaway to the single developer.
 
stick n move said:
Another angle of the new penn proposal. It would be incredible if they built this!
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As badly as I would love to replicate that feeling of walking into a beautiful station shed like at Saint Pancras, Waterloo, Paddington, Lime Street, Gare du Nord, Amsterdam Centraal, Frankfurt Hauptbanhof, Zurich Hbf, or any number of stations that are the premier entrance to their cities, I would also not want to just recreate a historical replica.
 
as02143 said:
As badly as I would love to replicate that feeling of walking into a beautiful station shed like at Saint Pancras, Waterloo, Paddington, Lime Street, Gare du Nord, Amsterdam Centraal, Frankfurt Hauptbanhof, Zurich Hbf, or any number of stations that are the premier entrance to their cities, I would also not want to just recreate a historical replica.
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appreciate the references to some of my favorite terminals.
 
• Additional testing was conducted up to 5’ cant deficiency, up to 165 mph was completed in late CY22
• Testing up to 7” cant up to 165 mph targeted for the spring of CY23 following successful validation of the revised dynamic model
• 6 Trainsets are expected to be commissioned before launch of revenue service
• Serial Trainsets TS03, TS04 and TS05 have been delivered to Penn Coach Yard
• TS06 and TS07 targeted for shipment in February and March 2023 respectively
• Start of revenue service, targeted for late CY2023
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Maybe some good news for our rather as of late depressing transit forum. Unlike the MBTA, perhaps Amtrak can pull things together; revenue service by end of year on the Acela II would be great.

edit: and I for one will be booking a trip with the family/kids + grand parents when it does open up - 165 MPH in the US is pretty cool, and I do love me a visit to NYC (or even just Providence).
 
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The Acela II's can't come fast enough. I had the opportunity to ride the Acela on my way to a conference in Virginia this past weekend. The ride quality was a bit bumpier than I expected, although I don't know how much of that was due to the track conditions.
 
Scalziand said:
The Acela II's can't come fast enough. I had the opportunity to ride the Acela on my way to a conference in Virginia this past weekend. The ride quality was a bit bumpier than I expected, although I don't know how much of that was due to the track conditions.
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The Acela I's ride a little rough for HSR sets, owing to their weight and the complexity of the active-tilt mechanisms. And that's not getting better as they age. The II's are supposed to be a lot smoother.
 
25 years for a new train set is a long time. European HSR go through 4-5 generations in that time frame.
 
www.railwayage.com

Report: Another Delay for Amtrak’s Acela II - Railway Age

It won’t be until sometime in 2024 that Amtrak’s new Acela II high-speed trainsets for the Northeast Corridor (NEC) will begin revenue service, three years behind schedule, as problems during testing have
www.railwayage.com www.railwayage.com

Acela 2 trainsets delayed another year to 2024 due to testing anomalies on the NEC.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
www.railwayage.com

Report: Another Delay for Amtrak’s Acela II - Railway Age

It won’t be until sometime in 2024 that Amtrak’s new Acela II high-speed trainsets for the Northeast Corridor (NEC) will begin revenue service, three years behind schedule, as problems during testing have
www.railwayage.com www.railwayage.com

Acela 2 trainsets delayed another year to 2024 due to testing anomalies on the NEC.
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Maybe that will give them time to fix the awkward gap between the engine and the passenger cars. That design BOTHERS me so much! LOL

1685573358264.png
 
“The modeling of the wheel to track interface is particularly complex due to age, condition, and specific characteristics of Amtrak infrastructure on the Northeast corridor, and especially the existing tracks,” Alstom said in a statement.
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Kind of feel like thats a pretty gentle middle finger to Amtrak and the condition on the NEC. Also I guess there is a bit of validity to the doom and gloom on other forums. I do hope they can figure this out, and not only figure it out but expand on it for faster general running on the NEC (even if it requires track replacement/etc).

I wonder if this is also a cost of running "HSR" on the same tracks as normal commuter/regional rail (and I guess freight here and there) vs. Europe and Japan generally having dedicated HSR rail ROWs that can be maintained to the highest standard.
 
bakgwailo said:
Kind of feel like thats a pretty gentle middle finger to Amtrak and the condition on the NEC. Also I guess there is a bit of validity to the doom and gloom on other forums. I do hope they can figure this out, and not only figure it out but expand on it for faster general running on the NEC (even if it requires track replacement/etc).

I wonder if this is also a cost of running "HSR" on the same tracks as normal commuter/regional rail (and I guess freight here and there) vs. Europe and Japan generally having dedicated HSR rail ROWs that can be maintained to the highest standard.
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To get up too Category I HSR (UIC definition) (over 250kph/155mph) you definitely need separately designed and maintained passenger rail tracks and usually right of way. No freight. Usually separate ROW due to much gentler curve requirements, fully grade separated ROW, etc.
 
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