Additional lane on the Southeast Expressway

[F-Line to Dudley]

Not bad!

-I'm not sure if I see US 6 along the Cape being upgraded to Interstate standards - lots of work to be done with substandard ramps, nonexistent breakdown lanes and, of course, the threat of overdeveloping/commercializing the Cape. Ending I-93 at the Sagamore would probably be sufficient considering 3 is already basically up to Interstate standards as it is.

Yeah, and the feds might quibble with a N/S highway taking on that many E/W add-on miles. You can get away with that (see 95 "North" on the CT shoreline) where the prevailing traffic between control cities is ultimately headed in that direction (i.e. NYC/NH-->PRV/BOS), but how do you decide that for Cape travel? You travel E/W across the Cape to/from...a split plurality going north on 3 and a split plurality going west on 6/195, but no clear-defined alpha dog. And the feds will concern troll that nitpick before we even get around to the part in Brewster where "93 South" is going north--due north after awhile--to the highway's terminus.

The only interstate you're getting on the Mid-Cape Highway is an E/W one fed via the oft-proposed/never-built southside connector and 25, either in form of an extended 195. Or (very longshot) a 2-digit I-82 taking over 195 and 6...the original-original candidate designation for the Mid-Cape and 195 when they were served up as a Hartford-Providence-Cape expressway thru-running from what's now I-84 and I-384. 93's never going to reach across the Sagamore. To the Sagamore...that's long overdue.


6 isn't that far off from Interstate standards. Yes, the Super-2 portion after Exit 9 has to be widened into a full-fledged 4-lane expressway. At least as far as Exit 11/Route 137, and for safety reasons even moreso than traffic reasons. But the existing 4-laner was originally earmarked for the interstate system when first planned so would only need some of the typical refresher work on outdated sightlines, shoulder space, and over-tight ramps/merges that every highway in the state has gotten. There's no blockers west of Exit 9 on the current road.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Yeah, and the feds might quibble with a N/S highway taking on that many E/W add-on miles. You can get away with that (see 95 "North" on the CT shoreline) where the prevailing traffic between control cities is ultimately headed in that direction (i.e. NYC/NH-->PRV/BOS), but how do you decide that for Cape travel? You travel E/W across the Cape to/from...a split plurality going north on 3 and a split plurality going west on 6/195, but no clear-defined alpha dog. And the feds will concern troll that nitpick before we even get around to the part in Brewster where "93 South" is going north--due north after awhile--to the highway's terminus.

The only interstate you're getting on the Mid-Cape Highway is an E/W one fed via the oft-proposed/never-built southside connector and 25, either in form of an extended 195. Or (very longshot) a 2-digit I-82 taking over 195 and 6...the original-original candidate designation for the Mid-Cape and 195 when they were served up as a Hartford-Providence-Cape expressway thru-running from what's now I-84 and I-384. 93's never going to reach across the Sagamore. To the Sagamore...that's long overdue.


6 isn't that far off from Interstate standards. Yes, the Super-2 portion after Exit 9 has to be widened into a full-fledged 4-lane expressway. At least as far as Exit 11/Route 137, and for safety reasons even moreso than traffic reasons. But the existing 4-laner was originally earmarked for the interstate system when first planned so would only need some of the typical refresher work on outdated sightlines, shoulder space, and over-tight ramps/merges that every highway in the state has gotten. There's no blockers west of Exit 9 on the current road.

The 82 designation is already in use out west though, and we already have four two-digit designations that are bizarrely in use twice. (And that's four too many, IMO.)

I'm not seeing any easy routing for a south side connector, anyway, unless you're willing to plow through Camp Edwards.

 

[Equilibria]

The 82 designation is already in use out west though, and we already have four two-digit designations that are bizarrely in use twice. (And that's four too many, IMO.)

I'm not seeing any easy routing for a south side connector, anyway, unless you're willing to plow through Camp Edwards.

If we're going into this... use the I-84 designation, and re-sign current I-84 from I-384 to I-90 as I-284. The long-proposed freeway sections west of Providence would still be a problem, though. Alternately, use I-86, which was part of this mess until the 1980s.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

If we're going into this... use the I-84 designation, and re-sign current I-84 from I-384 to I-90 as I-284. The long-proposed freeway sections west of Providence would still be a problem, though. Alternately, use I-86, which was part of this mess until the 1980s.

84 and 86 are two of the four two-digit numbers already in use twice. (The other two are 76 and 88.)

Why not I-92?

 

[Charlie_mta]

I'm not seeing any easy routing for a south side connector, anyway, unless you're willing to plow through Camp Edwards.

It would be a very easy and low impact expresssway connector to build. No residential takes, and it would follow pretty much an existing powerline corridor. A second span for the Bourne Bridge would be needed. This is what I came up with:

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

It would be a very easy and low impact expresssway connector to build. No residential takes, and it would follow pretty much an existing powerline corridor. A second span for the Bourne Bridge would be needed. This is what I came up with:

Yeah, that's Camp Edwards.

I'd imagine that would be close to what the connector would ultimately look like.

If that got built, you could then designate Route 6 starting at 295 in Rhode Island -> 95 -> 195 -> 25 -> Route 6 in Cape Cod as I-92 running East and West, and that'd work out alright, right?

There's only the one stretch between 295 and the Connecticut Border that would then be stopping you from running 92 to the Connecticut Turnpike, down the 395 corridor to CT-2 and into a Hartford Terminus.

 

[czsz]

What is up with Google Maps labeling it "US Route 6 in Nevada"?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

84 and 86 are two of the four two-digit numbers already in use twice. (The other two are 76 and 88.)

Why not I-92?

Correct. Numbers are reusable if they're discontiguous.


I-92's being reserved for a Maine-New-Hampshire-Vermont highway corridor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East–West_Highway_(New_England).

Yes, it's a pipe dream. But because 92 is the only number that would fit there and it is an active proposal that's where it's being reserved. 82 occupied the Southern New England E/W slot once before in the 60's before they started messing around (and messing back) I-84's final eastern terminus, so it's not a new idea for some combo of Hartford-Providence-Cape roads along the old US6 alignment.

The teaser for an 82 designation is that RIDOT put completing its US 6 expressway to the CT border and 395 back on its long-range plan barely 15 years after canceling I-84, so they would have the most to gain being in the center of a "tri-state" (barely) expressway that joined 195 and 6 with a short downtown Providence/95 concurrency in the middle. It would be kind of a flimsy designation since it's just scraping the border, but they would swing for the fences at an 82 designation for that on the chance that CT gets its portion fully completed by the end of the century. Massachusetts probably couldn't care less about what traffic is originating west of Providence and is unlikely to help them out by supporting a redesignation of 195, but you never know...if it's worth enough extra pork for a Southside Connector or new/replacement bridge they'll entertain Rhode Island's self-interest. I think ALL of this trends a bit mid-century, but the unbuilt gaps of this highway corridor are very small vs. the built portions and the states do want to fill those gaps. They just blew their opportunity to fill them in any coordinated fashion 35 years ago so things like the I-384 Bolton-Willimantic, US6 Johnston-Plainfield, and US6/MA25 Southside Connector infills have to all be separate intra-state projects--at all the pace and pain threshold those go--to happen instead of getting serious fed investment as a national corridor.

So your timetable is more like 1 gap filler per 20 years and then a spirited push to sew it up as a true interstate corridor (say, if CT builds east to Willimantic and RI builds west to 395..then the small Willimantic-to-395 gap becomes a git-'r-dun fast track project).

 

[Shepard]

I've never been bitten by the interstate designation bug. Can someone quickly explain what makes this so sexy?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

It would be a very easy and low impact expresssway connector to build. No residential takes, and it would follow pretty much an existing powerline corridor. A second span for the Bourne Bridge would be needed. This is what I came up with:

That's almost exactly what every officially proposed rendering came out to. Banks sharply east off the Cape side of the Bourne Bridge, cuts northeast across Edwards on power line land, then rides the trunk power line reservation to an interchange with the Mid-Cape Highway right before it starts curving up to the Sagamore. The big power line reservation is the reserved highway space if there ever were a third canal crossing (can see how conspicuously the land is cleared across the canal so a straight road/bridge could get plopped in between 25 and 6 in this location), so the Connector would curve this way to support a future extra crossing.


Edwards is barren here because of old wartime munitions contamination, so road is pretty much the only productive thing you are going to build over that space. There's some concern about environmental impacts on the aquifer below, but most of the prior studies done on the Connector concluded that was more minor than what the contaminated land already does to it. And it would be very cheap to complete, especially with the Bourne flyover already being built. It's mainly been stymied by the natives' fears of induced demand traffic, but that opposition has eroded over time with their pain threshold for gridlock and realization that if they want to be able to get a sane trip onto the mainland they better figure out how to better load-balance the Bourne and Sagamore first.

I think it'll happen, but they've probably got another decade of eroding pain threshold before not-as-opposed-as-used-to-be starts to morph into tacit support.

 

[AdamBC]

What is up with Google Maps labeling it "US Route 6 in Nevada"?

Pretty sure this is a side effect of grabbing Wikipedia metadata to name stuff in Google Maps. Not sure how they plan on fixing it.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I've never been bitten by the interstate designation bug. Can someone quickly explain what makes this so sexy?

Economic development. A bunch of guys in Washington bestowing a blessing to begin commencing mad quantities of Business in the general area of your asphalt.

That's...uh...pretty much it. Some corridor proposals have a little more meat on their bones than that...some are just an all-sizzle/no-steak thing to get some Congressional incumbent a monument named after him.


Specific to this region, a lot of our non-Interstate highways are functionally interstates/intercities so it makes a great deal of sense to just call the road what it is.
-- US 3 is the NH-MA interstate connecting Manchester, Nashua, Lowell, and Greater Boston. Should be an extension of I-293 in NH all the way to 128.
-- MA 3 should be I-93 because that is the prevailing N-S corridor covering all of Eastern MA.
-- MA/RI 146, when the last 2 non-expressway gaps are filled in Sutton and North Smithfield, should be an I-x90 because that is the Worcester-Providence expressway and crosses 190/290/90/295/95.
-- 24 should be an I-x95 being the primary Boston-South Coast/RI coast link and hitting 128/495/195.
-- If the Middleboro gap is completed and 93 came to the Cape there's a strong argument for US 44 becoming an I-x93 for the South Shore feed it provides from 495.
-- 6, as discussed, is part of a contiguous E/W interstate corridor to RI if it had that missing link to the Bourne/25/495/195. At minimum an extension of 195.


Lesser roads that still fit the mold:
-- MA 57 in Greater Springfield serves the same function as 391 in Chicopee as a feeder to the 91/291/Pike/US 5 convergence. If the last planned leg of it to Southwick gets completed as originally planned, there's thought of seeking an x91 (probably 591) designation for it.
-- MA 213 in Methuen, if it were a little more up-to-spec, would be an ideal x93 for being the south-flank E/W route between the seacoast and Windham County, NH.
-- Lowell Connector, if it were VERY much more up-to-spec, could also qualify as an x93 spur off 293.


Other than truncated would-be interstates like Route 1 and the Fall River-RI part of 24, Route 2 and the Cape Ann leg of 128 are the only purely intra-state expressways of any consequence that don't funnel large amounts of interstate thru traffic. Or, in 2's case, don't really connect any major control point cities and instead just sort of handle a bleed-through of local traffic. But that's only because they gave up on connecting the west end to I-91 and scaled what was built west of Fitchburg/Gardner to a divided Super 2. There'd otherwise be a good case for that being the Boston-Vermont interstate if it were contiguous out to Greenfield.

Sort of a fluke coincidence that what actually got built ended up being, with very minor (and in most cases still on-the-table) gaps, essentially is an every MA expressway = interstate road network. You expect that in rural states like VT and ME (or even NH...NH 101 should be an x93, with NH 16 being the only purely in-state expressway of note) much moreso than a place with Mass.'s density. CT and RI are full of highways that only have local intent.

 

[Equilibria]

Specific to this region, a lot of our non-Interstate highways are functionally interstates/intercities so it makes a great deal of sense to just call the road what it is.
-- US 3 is the NH-MA interstate connecting Manchester, Nashua, Lowell, and Greater Boston. Should be an extension of I-293 in NH all the way to 128.

The problem with this logic, as someone who loves thinking this way, is that the efficiency provided by a road designation isn't nearly as important as clarifying wayfinding for locals. Route 3 on the South Shore might not be such an issue, but the stubborn push to kill the Route 128 designation, and the resulting confusion when the number your friend told you about doesn't show up on the signs, demonstrates that what makes rational sense doesn't always make real sense.

BTW, while most bloggers suggest 293 as you do, I could actually see a case for extending I-89 via a concurrency with I-93 south of Concord. That way, it really becomes a Boston-Montreal connector. The Everett Turnpike also needs some work before that re-designation would be possible (same issues as Route 3).

 

[whighlander]

Folks the area that is rapidly growing into an urbanity is Plymouth County and Plymouth Town in particular

As a result:
I-93 will be extended to the Sagamore Bridge where it will join I-495 (completed) -- the no-brainer

to be quickly followed by I-293 -- the Interstate-ing of Rt-44 from I-93 to I-495 @ Middleborough and eventually possibly to I-95 (new ROw)

from wiki articles
Plymoth Town:

Area
• Total 134.0 sq mi (347.0 km2)
• Land 96.5 sq mi (249.8 km2)
• Water 37.5 sq mi (97.2 km2)
Elevation[3] 187 ft (57 m)
Population (2010)[4]
• Total 56,468
• Density 608.1/sq mi (234.9/km2)

1940 13,100 +0.4%
1950 13,608 +3.9%
1960 14,445 +6.2%
1970 18,606 +28.8%
1980 35,913 +93.0%
1990 45,608 +27.0%
2000 51,701 +13.4%
2010 56,468 +9.2%

Plymouth County:
[qquote]Seat Plymouth and Brockton
Largest city Brockton
Area
- Total
- Land
- Water
1,093.39 sq mi (2,832 km²)
660.85 sq mi (1,712 km²)
432.54 sq mi (1,120 km²), 39.56%
Population
- (2010)
- Density
494,919
749/sq mi (289/km²)
[/quote]

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Folks the area that is rapidly growing into an urbanity is Plymouth County and Plymouth Town in particular

As a result:
I-93 will be extended to the Sagamore Bridge where it will join I-495 (completed) -- the no-brainer

to be quickly followed by I-293 -- the Interstate-ing of Rt-44 from I-93 to I-495 @ Middleborough and eventually possibly to I-95 (new ROw)

from wiki articles
Plymoth Town:


Plymouth County:
[qquote]Seat Plymouth and Brockton
Largest city Brockton
Area
- Total
- Land
- Water
1,093.39 sq mi (2,832 km²)
660.85 sq mi (1,712 km²)
432.54 sq mi (1,120 km²), 39.56%
Population
- (2010)
- Density
494,919
749/sq mi (289/km²)

The operative word being "Brockton". That introduces a significant amount of skew in the density numbers, but it's far enough away from Plymouth with different commute patterns that Plymouth-centric development is not going to meaningfully impact Brockton or vice versa. Look at a map. There's not a single E/W numbered state road passing through Brockton that hits between 24 and 3 on a line. MA 27 and MA 123 make exaggerated due N/S detours once they hit the Abington/Whitman sides of town. That says all there needs to be said about which direction Brocktonites are predominately going. N/S.

I won't deny that Plymouth is growing, but those are very, very loaded numbers to be trotting out for a claim that there's Crazy Transit Pitches-level urbanity popping up in Greater Plymouth. The 44 expressway completion and I-x93'ing is no-brainer because that road traces the edge of the 495 belt better than 495 itself does on the Middleboro-Wareham stretch, but let's not start putting Plymouth in the same urban heft category as a Lowell or Nashua. Affluence and relative upside ≠ urbanity.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

I'm actually not 100% on Interstating 44...

The non Xway parts of that road are pretty heavily saturated with retail etc.

Doable? Yeah, but not without a land grab bonanza... to a lesser extent, that's the same problem with 146 holes.

I would tackle the easier priorities first. (Southside, southside, southside!)

With regards to numbered/numbering interstates... 98 isn't in use either and fits the pipe dream designated 92 a whole lot better. I'd make the case for grabbing 92 and reassigning MH/VT/ME 98 instead.

Question: if 82/92/that road got built out to 395, CDOT files to run the 82 designation down the Pike to CT-2 - does that knock off the 395 designation? And if it does, can that corridor get a senible redesignation?

 

[Equilibria]

Question: if 82/92/that road got built out to 395, CDOT files to run the 82 designation down the Pike to CT-2 - does that knock off the 395 designation? And if it does, can that corridor get a senible redesignation?

The 395 designation is there because the corridor was to extend into NH, replacing 190 and part of 290 (at least in CT's vision). Frankly, 395 makes just as much sense as extending the 290 or 190 designation. What doesn't make sense is having 2 designations.

There isn't a 2-digit number available in the 90s, so I think that's the best you can do.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I'm actually not 100% on Interstating 44...

The non Xway parts of that road are pretty heavily saturated with retail etc.

Doable? Yeah, but not without a land grab bonanza... to a lesser extent, that's the same problem with 146 holes.

I would tackle the easier priorities first. (Southside, southside, southside!)

The only part of 44 that's been proposed for an expressway upgrade in the last 45 years is the Super-2 section between MA 105 and the 495/44/28/18 interchange + rotary, not any part of 44 west of there. That's all 1960's-construction road they built as one carriageway of the eventual expressway, with no curb cuts whatsoever save for the 3 at-grade intersections and incomplete 105 interchange. It's very easy to complete that link...Middleboro was just skittish about it when the rest of the Super-2 was upgraded to full expressway standards from '01-04. Most of that had to do with turning the rotary into some sort of super-duper interchange. Now the rotary's so overloaded and dangerous they want the super-duper interchange, and replacing it with a direct 495 link and flyover is a high priority. Once that gets done the rest of the 5 miles of Super 2 is moot. There's no neighbors on it to rebel because the state has owned 2 carriageways worth of land since before the first carriageway even had a road on it, and I don't think there were any exits planned between 105 and 495/28/18 so once the rotary gets reworked they have ruined all the "character" the road is ever going to ruin. So if the interchange gets done, it's pretty much down to just finding a lump of funding to do the rest of the expressway gap. It'll be a mere formality at that point, and probably slip by just as quietly as the '01-04 construction project to Plymouth. This is about as low-hanging fruit as you'll find in the state for new construction if that rotary stumbling block is no longer a stumbling block.


Like I said, this *is* essentially the 495 belt as it should've ultimately been completed. Had the state not had an excess of canceled interstate miles to cash in and cash in now in 1982, they probably would've held the redesignation of MA 25 (495 became 25 at the Route 24 interchange in Raynham until then) until after 44 was complete, then made the Raynham-Middleboro segment of 25 and all of 44 Middleboro-Plymouth be the final 495 leg. Instead they just grabbed all the contiguous road available and sent 495 to Wareham on a stretch little-used enough and a mixed-enough bag of commute patterns that it probably should've stayed a state highway.


44 west of 495 through Taunton to Providence hasn't been a viable expressway proposal since the mid-60's, for exactly the reasons you cite. Just look at what that would do to Taunton and East Providence. It was dependent also on traffic from the proposed I-895 belt off the 95/295 interchange that was to closely follow MA 118. Once that stalled out there ceased to be any compelling highway engineering reason to push a contiguous 44, let alone reason to deal with the steep local opposition. That's like a paleo-crazy transit pitch. It's been extinct that long.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Question: if 82/92/that road got built out to 395, CDOT files to run the 82 designation down the Pike to CT-2 - does that knock off the 395 designation? And if it does, can that corridor get a senible redesignation?

You mean...CT 2 to 395 to Worcester? What travel pattern does that even serve? 395's a strictly N/S corridor. Nobody goes on it to go west or east anywhere. And CT 2 is a strictly intra-state expressway (and not a particularly up-to-spec one at that). The only developable interstate corridors here are the mythical Hartford-Providence connection everyone still wants to build but can't agree on how, and whatever bureaucratic games the states can agree amongst themselves to play on linking E/W ends together through providence (i.e. any "aesthetic" redesignation of 195 that helps gerrymander the Cape into this cross-Southern New England corridor). And this is only because it's the very last of the original regional interstates that's still in-play and not totally dead 50 years later. There isn't really any new brainstorming to go into this...this is the I-82 that was on the maps 50 years ago.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

You mean...CT 2 to 395 to Worcester? What travel pattern does that even serve? 395's a strictly N/S corridor. Nobody goes on it to go west or east anywhere. And CT 2 is a strictly intra-state expressway (and not a particularly up-to-spec one at that). The only developable interstate corridors here are the mythical Hartford-Providence connection everyone still wants to build but can't agree on how, and whatever bureaucratic games the states can agree amongst themselves to play on linking E/W ends together through providence (i.e. any "aesthetic" redesignation of 195 that helps gerrymander the Cape into this cross-Southern New England corridor). And this is only because it's the very last of the original regional interstates that's still in-play and not totally dead 50 years later. There isn't really any new brainstorming to go into this...this is the I-82 that was on the maps 50 years ago.

No, I mean CT-2 to 395 to that aborted turnpike stub to 6 to 195 and on to the Cape via Southside as the Hartford-Providence-Cape connection.

Under such a proposal, 395 would get split, and I was wondering what would end up happening to the 95-to-(82?) 395 stub and the 82-to-90/290 stub.

If I made that sound as clear as mud, I can draw a map of what I mean.