Ar things Changing

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whighlander

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People talk a lot about long term trends -- e.g. "Global Warming" stock market, economy, planetary population, etc.

Yesterday I drove into Alewife T parking garage mid-morning -- I hadn't been in the garage just after rush four for a few years -- I fully expected people to be parking on the external ramps -- but instead once I got up on the 5ht floor (room level) i found a lot of open parking spaces

Has anyone who takes the T regularly noticed any rather steep decline in the use of the Red Line?

My hypotheses include:
1) it was an anomaly for some reason????
2) a greater % of people are being dropped-off by family members -- perhaps fewer 2 car families
3) a greater % of people take the bus to get to the Red Line --- taking the bus is cheaper than parking at Alewife
4) a greater % of people now bike or walk to Alewife
5) a greater % of are parking legally / illegally somewhere else
6) fewer people are commuting into the core from the Northwestern suburbs by T -- doesn't seem to be compatible with the amount of traffic on Rt-2
7) fewer people are commuting into the core from the Northwestern suburbs
We are seeing huge investments in new construction in Kendall / Cambridge Center and these are the kinds of work places that the Northwestern Suburbs tend to supply with talent

So what gives -- I was perplexed and somewhat concerned -- any thoughts?
 
After MBTA parking rates were drastically increased a few years ago, I recall reading some report prepared for the MBTA Board of Directors which studied the impact. The summary was something to the effect of after 1 year of higher prices parking was down about 40% but overall revenue went up as the price to park had doubled at many commuter lots. Also, ridership did not fall even though there was less parking lot use.

As a side note, I'll admit the subway fare for the T is competitive relative to other cities, but the suburban parking rates are way out of whack and are unreasonable. If one lives outside of Rte. 128, it has become quite expensive to commute via public transit given the combined cost of parking and paying the commuter rail fare. The state should be doing more to incentivize people to take the public transit. I think newer light rail agencies like Denver and Portland Oregon have free parking at many suburban locations to encourage transit use.
 
The rates have definitely driven down parking lot utilization.
 
And parking at Alewife is set to go to either $9 or $10 in the two fare scenarios.

We live in Waltham, about a ten-minute drive from Riverside. The cost of parking and taking the T for two people comes out to about the same as driving in and parking at one of the downtown garages (e.g. under the Common) on weekends and evenings. With the pending fare increases, it will be cheaper, and faster, to drive.
 
Isnt parking something like $5 for 24 hours under the post office park on weekends? Youd be silly not to drive.

And thats a big problem.
 
jass said:
Isnt parking something like $5 for 24 hours under the post office park on weekends? Youd be silly not to drive.

And thats a big problem.
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$10. Northeastern's Renaissance Garage (at Ruggles) is $6.
 
datadyne007 said:
$10. Northeastern's Renaissance Garage (at Ruggles) is $6.
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Less than that --

http://www.posquare.com/rates.html

And the Common garage is $11 nights and weekends and the garage behind Back Bay station is $10 I think.

If you're more than one person traveling and you already have a car, there's little financial incentive to park at a station and take the T in evenings and weekends.
 
jass said:
Isnt parking something like $5 for 24 hours under the post office park on weekends? Youd be silly not to drive.

And thats a big problem.
Click to expand...

People coming into Boston to spend money, see a show, have a nice meal, etc. is a bad thing because they elect to drive rather that ride in on the tin can toilets of the MBTA? I've said this before, but no matter how hard you try a large segment of the population will not touch public transportation. If one can afford a car and the gas and the parking, why beyond some absurd fanaticism with Al Gore's teachings should they elect to confine themselves to the crap shoot known as the T?
 
Monthly parking at my office garage is around $500 per month. Door-to-desk time of 15 minutes. Risk factor: swerving taxis in Kenmore square.

T pass for the month is $59 per month - less, actually, considering I can use a pre-tax spending account. Door-to-desk time of 30 minutes. Risk factor: rubbing shoulders with the masses.

Driving would only be economically worthwhile if either
a) I could squeeze 9 other people into my car every day (I can't)
b) The quicker commute of 30 minutes each day would yield me an extra $450 per month in income (it wouldn't - I'm salaried and not paid for face time)
 
I think point was that it economical for people who coming in on a weekend day and don't have a pass.

Heck, if I have to work on a weekend I'll usually drive in just so I don't have to deal with the shitty weekend headways, and I do have a pass.
 
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kmp1284 said:
People coming into Boston to spend money, see a show, have a nice meal, etc. is a bad thing because they elect to drive rather that ride in on the tin can toilets of the MBTA? I've said this before, but no matter how hard you try a large segment of the population will not touch public transportation. If one can afford a car and the gas and the parking, why beyond some absurd fanaticism with Al Gore's teachings should they elect to confine themselves to the crap shoot known as the T?
Click to expand...

Because there should be an encouragement to take public transit. If everyone had the attitude of, "I have a car already, so let me drive into town", then driving might not be such an advantageous proposition. Yet by making parking at T stops almost as expensive as parking in a downtown garage on nights and weekends, there's little incentive to take transit.

Case in point: I'm as staunch a defender of transit as they come. We're going to a function this weekend near Back Bay station, and live two miles from the Worcester/Framingham line. Yet the incredibly sparse weekend commuter rail schedules (and the last train leaving at 11 p.m.), combined with the venue validating parking for $7, doesn't make taking the train a practical option.
 
The T has to actually work efficiently before any of this can happen. The incentive is absolutely little-to-none right now with the ABYSMAL weekend headways.

"Take the T on the weekend! Who knows when you'll arrive at the gala! Maybe an hour late! Pay $7 to park at one of our unsecured garages and ride along with us for the surprise! Maybe even your catalytic converter will be missing when you get back!"
 
saulblum said:
Because there should be an encouragement to take public transit. If everyone had the attitude of, "I have a car already, so let me drive into town", then driving might not be such an advantageous proposition. Yet by making parking at T stops almost as expensive as parking in a downtown garage on nights and weekends, there's little incentive to take transit.

Case in point: I'm as staunch a defender of transit as they come. We're going to a function this weekend near Back Bay station, and live two miles from the Worcester/Framingham line. Yet the incredibly sparse weekend commuter rail schedules (and the last train leaving at 11 p.m.), combined with the venue validating parking for $7, doesn't make taking the train a practical option.
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Well boo hoo. The schedule is the way it is because of market demands. There aren't enough people riding the train into town from the suburbs on Saturday nights to justify scheduling increases. What do you think, they should be running trains every hour on the hour so Saul and Mrs. Saul can have a few more highballs at the gala?
 
statler said:
I think point was that it economical for people who coming in on a weekend day and don't have a pass.

Heck, if I have to work on a weekend I'll usually drive in just so I don't have to deal with the shitty weekend headways, and I do have a pass.
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Stat -- my wife and I are members of the MFA -- for many years we took the T while the service was no better than today -- the difference was the price -- Members can park at the MFA for $8 to $14 depending on duration.

By contrast taking the T costs $13.80 == $7 to park at Alewife + $6.80 for the T fare using a Charlie Card

In addition from time to T we can find a parking meter and even more rarely we find one of the few free spaces

Now the only times when we tale the T to the MFA is if we want to stroll through the Victory Garden and Rose Garden in the Fens, then Newbury St to the Public Garden and not need to come back to the origin, or if there is some event fouling up the Soldier Field Rd. / Storrow Drive traffic.
 
kmp1284 said:
Well boo hoo. The schedule is the way it is because of market demands. There aren't enough people riding the train into town from the suburbs on Saturday nights to justify scheduling increases. What do you think, they should be running trains every hour on the hour so Saul and Mrs. Saul can have a few more highballs at the gala?
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Dude, chill.

And it's not just weekends either: outside of the rapid transit lines and a few key bus routes, schedules peter out after around 8 p.m. I am often on the 9:50 p.m. bus from Cambridge to Waltham, when the bus runs every 45 minutes, and it is usually completely filled up by the time we leave Central Square. So clearly, off-peak schedules are not necessarily tied to the demand.

And using light ridership to justify sparse weekend schedules is a bit of circular logic: perhaps if the schedules were not so sparse, the ridership would not be so light.
 
Luckily, I own a house within a reasonable walking distance to the T. It tacks a good 10-15 minutes on to my commute and sucks in the winter but saves me 5.50 a day plus it is about the only exercise I get.

So my choice when I work on Saturdays is "Free" (As in "sunk cost" as I already own a pass) or $10 at the god-awful Government Center Garage. (When I worked at 185 Franklin, I paid $7 to park at the wonderful P.O. Sq Garage and was able step right across the street to my front door. *sigh*)

Sundays are different because there is usually still plenty of free on street parking in the area when I get to work.
 
saulblum said:
And using light ridership to justify sparse weekend schedules is a bit of circular logic: perhaps if the schedules were not so sparse, the ridership would not be so light.
Click to expand...

Ridership is light on weekends because so few people work in town on weekends. Added extra service isn't going to change that.
 
kmp1284 said:
No, it isn't.
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I'm not saying that there really is the demand here on weekends to support more frequent commuter rail service (unlike say, in NY, where the LIRR has trains leaving every hour, or even more frequently, all day long).

But once service becomes sparse enough (e.g. 3-hour headways), it only becomes useable for those with no other transportation options.

As an example: suppose you have trains running every two hours, that are each around half-filled. If you switch the headways to four hours, will each train become completely filled? Likely no, because once the service becomes that sparse, it becomes much less attractive than competing options.

This also gets back to discussions that have been had on other threads: the idea of using the commuter lines to run more frequent service, with shorter trains, to the inner suburbs (say zone 2).

http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=130225&postcount=5
 
Re: Are things Changing

saulblum said:
I'm not saying that there really is the demand here on weekends to support more frequent commuter rail service (unlike say, in NY, where the LIRR has trains leaving every hour, or even more frequently, all day long).

But once service becomes sparse enough (e.g. 3-hour headways), it only becomes useable for those with no other transportation options.

As an example: suppose you have trains running every two hours, that are each around half-filled. If you switch the headways to four hours, will each train become completely filled? Likely no, because once the service becomes that sparse, it becomes much less attractive than competing options.

This also gets back to discussions that have been had on other threads: the idea of using the commuter lines to run more frequent service, with shorter trains, to the inner suburbs (say zone 2).

http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=130225&postcount=5
Click to expand...


Saul -- people coming for a weekend event as opposed to commuters make this calculation:

T or no T = a*Convenience + b*Cost
1) Convenience
2) Cost

the two weighting factors a and b depend on externals such as what might be convenient in summer (4 block walk) might be very unpleasant in mid winter or when carrying a lot of packages

Cost is dependent on parking for both the T and the end purpose although you can also walk or bike or take the bus to the T -- see convenience

The problem for the T on weekends is that:
1) there are a lot of spaces in downtown garages which are available
2) weekend downtown parking is not much more expensive than the T parking at Alewife and certainly < Alewife + 2 T round trips

No amount of improving the schedule of the commuter rail will influence that computation for the people to the Northwest of Boston

If I was the T -- and interested in boosting revenues -- I'd go after the suburbanites on weekends:

1) cut the cost to parking in Alewife to $1 for 6 hours and $2.50 all day at Alewife on Saturdays and Sundays
2) get rid of the people in the booths replacing them by Charlie Card readers
3) give people a discount on the T fare - say $1.25

that difference of T mode = $13.80 versus driving mode = $14 (parking for 6 hrs at MFA as members)
changes to T+ mode = $7.50 is enough to flip the switch in favor of the T
 
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