[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I still like my circular ice rink AROUND the building idea. Would be fun and I'm not sure it's been ever done (but I could very well be wrong).

It would be unique in all North America. So would cliff diving. Gotta be weird, can't be just "an urban space"
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I am adamantly against this project, it will utterly ruin the beautiful ambiance that exists on the waterfront. The huge girth of the buildings is obscene for such a delicate part of the city. I want to see the waterfront from the greenway, I don't want my vision blocked by a massive structure. If built, the character of the area transforms from nearly quaint and welcoming to imposing and more isolating. A visitor's awareness will always be partially diverted from the water to the towering presence of the tall buildings. Yes, I want to be in the sun when viewing the beautiful scenery later in the day and not have a shadow cast over me and the area around me.

Just because a developer buys property it doesn't entitle him to put up whatever he wants. Commerce of this scale has its place, it isn't here. If the waterfront guidelines allow this, I've lost faith in the process. If Vivien Lee accepts this project, I've lost trust in her. If Mayor Walsh approves, his urban vision is uninformed and I will assume that he is partly pandering to his construction union buddies.

Thought so. Glad to have invoked such civil discourse. Obviously, some of the posters on this forum are children. My only response is that big doesn't belong on a waterfront, that a 600 foot skyscraper and a 550 foot skyscraper, both of which "exceed the property’s recommended height limit of 200 feet", on the edge of a waterfront are an urban design violation. I'm entitled to an opinion without a blowback of wrath. Bye.

Oh come now, Ed, there is certainly room for contrarian opinions this board. Don't take off forever! I have to admit though, that I was among the people who thought your post was sarcasm. Much of original post didn't seem serious including: "The huge girth of the buildings is obscene..." and the fact that the proposal blocks views LESS than the status quo, not to mention that "later in the day" the shadows cast by any building here will be over the water. If I may speak for the others, I would dare say we would engage in a reasonable criticism of the proposal, but that post contained some glaring contradictions that made it difficult to take seriously.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

EdMc, I am assuming you're on the older end of this forum's age spectrum. Can I ask, how long have you lived in Boston? Because my 20-someodd years as a Boston resident never left me feeling like this area's character has ever been quaint or welcoming.

And not to be too snide, but are you honestly arguing that a block-sized, 8 story concrete bunker lets you "see the waterfront" from the Greenway better than a glass atrium?

The sun rises in the East and sets in the West in Boston still, no? Past noon, the proposed towers will cast shadows to some degree over the harbor. The Greenway will be shadowed at 7AM.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I giveth a rats ass about that blather.

All I can think of looking at the renders is the Seinfeld episode where George buys art from the guy who works in triangles.

Too many damn triangles. And that glass corner with the little setback garden of trees on a balcony 90 feet up is as bad as any place the current garage meets the sidewalk. UGLY.

Thankfully it's just eye candy, but put some effort in. The internal yet open to outside atrium looks ok. The square glass buildings with triangles everywhere suck it.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Problem is, you've done something that does not make for civil Civil Discourse: You've staked out personal preferences, cloaked them in fallacious or hypocritically cherry-picked legal cover, and presented them as if your opinions must command universal assent:

"doesn't belong" (a pure opinion)
"exceed recommended height limit" (a fallible, changeable law)
"urban design violation" (a pure opinion on some imagined True Design)

There's a lot to be said for a 200' height limit in the "last block" before the water. Problem here is the garage perfectly conforms to all massing and setback expectations and produces an unassailable economic return exactly as it is. It also abuts two 400' violators, which as much suggests a trend as it does an outrage.

Given that it is perfectly legal and privately owned, There's only two ways that you can presume to get rid of the thing:

Either stump up about $30,000 per resident in boston and buy out the garage (in which case you need to persuade people that that's the best thing to spend it on, not dictate to them), or give the owner an economic incentive to wreck it himself and build a tower.

But its in a city. The answer to ugly buildings in a diverse city can't be take-by-eminent-domain-and-build-a-park...you get Detroit...plenty of new parkland there...

Nope, its going to be "build something" and probably "build something tall."

Excellent post Arlington.
EdMc, every point above is valid. Enjoy a counter-argument. Don't run away from this site because you live in the Harbor Towers and logic is bunk!
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

For those who do not think that skyscrapers belong on a harbor front, may I suggest a perusal of the Hong Kong skyline as seen from Victoria Harbor. This is arguably one of the most spectacular and iconic skylines in the world.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

That ice rink will need a lot of shadows to keep the ice from melting. Better make this a 1000 footer just to be careful.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

For those who do not think that skyscrapers belong on a harbor front, may I suggest a perusal of the Hong Kong skyline as seen from Victoria Harbor. This is arguably one of the most spectacular and iconic skylines in the world.

Some balance here though. Honest question (because I've never been there): How is it for the human beings at street level? Is there waterfront access or is it just a nice sky photo?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Some balance here though. Honest question (because I've never been there): How is it for the human beings at street level? Is there waterfront access or is it just a nice sky photo?

I was just there last week and the skyline at night was magnificent.

Cities like Hong Kong and Tokyo like to build mediocre buildings but put lots of flashy bright lights and TV screens on them to downplay their architectural weaknesses. Hong Kong has a few nice buildings surrounded by (tall) mediocrity. From where I visited, the activity on the street didn't seem any busier than Manhattan...maybe even less so. What made it seem busy was the claustrophobic nature of streets. HK has very few wide avenues like Manhattan so there's more of a crush on the street than NYC, but there aren't necessarily more people. If you can get past the slimmer streets, much of Hong Kong Island (only had a day so I couldn't get to Kowloon) looks and feels like Manhattan...that is until you get closer to the mountains. Then it reminds me of denser Kuala Lumpur with curvy streets and varied terrain.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I was just there last week and the skyline at night was magnificent.

Cities like Hong Kong and Tokyo like to build mediocre buildings but put lots of flashy bright lights and TV screens on them to downplay their architectural weaknesses. Hong Kong has a few nice buildings surrounded by (tall) mediocrity.

I think you got it the other way around. Their shorter buildings are mediocre, their taller ones are nice.

And we also don't need to look far for tall buildings on the waterfront. Just look at NYC.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I think you got it the other way around. Their shorter buildings are mediocre, their taller ones are nice.

And we also don't need to look far for tall buildings on the waterfront. Just look at NYC.

Also, the streetscape (people level) in Hong Kong shares quite a bit with Boston. The streets are typically British (irregular pattern, no grid). They are cramped (few large streets), and the city is packed into limited real estate. There are a lot of human scale elements.

One major difference though is the terracing, due to Victoria Peak.

Personally, I think it works.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I think you got it the other way around. Their shorter buildings are mediocre, their taller ones are nice.

I think what he meant by this is that the shorter buildings are still tall. HK has a huge amount of terrible looking residential towers in the 400'-700' range.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

"Terrible" is subjective. HK does have a lot of really decayed-looking lowrises (up to 20 stories). But the huge walls of 60-80 story residentials are awesome IMO.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Some crude calculations, and comparisons.

Four Seasons II on Dalton is about 650,000 sq ft and has a cost estimate of $700 million.

Assuming the footprints of the two towers are about 30,000 sq ft (Version 3.0 is supposedly a bit under the 50 percent requirement for open space), and between the two, they average 43 floors, that's about 1.3 million square feet.

Assuming the $1 billion total cost includes the $155+ million purchase price of the garage, and the $180 million for the replacement garage, that leaves about $665 million for the cost of the towers.

Four Seasons II over $1,000 a sq ft, Harbor Towers a bit over $500 a sq ft. At $500 a sq ft, a lot of the eye candy goes back in the bag.

_________
I will add that, when all is said and done, the gross cost per space for the 1,400 parking spaces will be nearly $250,000 per space.
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Some balance here though. Honest question (because I've never been there): How is it for the human beings at street level? Is there waterfront access or is it just a nice sky photo?

It is fantastic. Either on the Central side or the TST / Kowloon side, it's better than Tokyo. I'm there for a few days every month for work and I love every moment.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I think what he meant by this is that the shorter buildings are still tall. HK has a huge amount of terrible looking residential towers in the 400'-700' range.

I guess those are what I meant. I have some pics that I'm having trouble posting that show these very tallish buildings on the train from the airport to the central train station. In once case there are 9 or 10 identical and average looking buildings built in a row. Those of you who've taken the air train there will know what I'm talking about .
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Like it or not everyone, Flaherty is right and owes nobody any defense.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Like it or not everyone, Flaherty is right and owes nobody any defense.

He can be right, but the problem with the IMAX isn't just that it's windowless and fugly, it's that it shows no movie anyone wants to see. You don't activate a waterfront by having your theater only show nature documentaries. That's the old model of IMAX. It's OK when the MOS does it, because that's inside the museum and it's kind of an archaic nostalgia thing.

Incorporate the theater's entrance into the atrium of Chiofaro's towers, project some images on the sides, and get it showing Hollywood films in the evenings. Then it will be fine.
 
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