[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

[George_Apley]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

There is design to them and yes they are fat but is fat that bad?

Well that's getting into subjective architectural preference, and no one's right.

The reason they're fat is because Chiofaro needs to have a certain amount of density in the towers to be able to even think about paying off burying the garage in the Harbor. He's hamstrung by the height restrictions of the FAA, so he can't go as tall as he might have wanted. Therefore, for this project to be financially possible, he had to make the towers fat from most angles.

In my opinion, fat towers aren't terrible on their own, the Hancock is fat from several perspectives and I like it fine, but these two buildings will glom together from many viewing angles, and look like one big hulk. For me, that's not visually appealing at all.

 

[coleslaw]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Well that's getting into subjective architectural preference, and no one's right.

The reason they're fat is because Chiofaro needs to have a certain amount of density in the towers to be able to even think about paying off burying the garage in the Harbor. He's hamstrung by the height restrictions of the FAA, so he can't go as tall as he might have wanted. Therefore, for this project to be financially possible, he had to make the towers fat from most angles.

In my opinion, fat towers aren't terrible on their own, the Hancock is fat from several perspectives and I like it fine, but these two buildings will glom together from many viewing angles, and look like one big hulk. For me, that's not visually appealing at all.

I see that but they have different colored cladding so I don't think they will look like one mass. I like overlapping buildings.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

That is true but these have yearlong ground level interaction and destroy a garage.

I don't think most people on this site would disagree with you. I think the opposition from the pro-development crowd is a subjective cry of "is this shit really the best we can get?" Those who have no aesthetic problem with this design obviously will say "what the hell are you talking about, these look great, build it now!" Our disagreements here are not the traditional pro-development technocrats vs anti-development NIMBYs, it's all subjective reactions based on our personal preferred massing of large, bulky towers.

 

[coleslaw]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I don't think most people on this site would disagree with you. I think the opposition from the pro-development crowd is a subjective cry of "is this shit really the best we can get?" Those who have no aesthetic problem with this design obviously will say "what the hell are you talking about, these look great, build it now!" Our disagreements here are not the traditional pro-development technocrats vs anti-development NIMBYs, it's all subjective reactions based on our personal preferred massing of large, bulky towers.

I know I just didn't like the straw-man of towers in the park.

 

[DZH22]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I see that but they have different colored cladding so I don't think they will look like one mass. I like overlapping buildings.

+1 These aren't just white blobs like the massing guy wants you to believe. They will just look like 2 separate buildings built near each other. The entire downtown skyline looks like 1 giant mass anyway, but obviously it's a ton of buildings that end up generating that effect.

If he lowers the amount of square footage, he's going to need to make up that money somewhere. I'd say the first place he'll turn is VE. I'd rather have the high quality fatties than a slim Kensington.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I see that but they have different colored cladding so I don't think they will look like one mass. I like overlapping buildings.

This I agree with:---And that is what I'm complaining about with this White block.

Cladding and Glass right? It will look nothing like the white block this person is presenting to the public. Talk about misguiding the public.

"At least change the colors on the buildings"

 

[fattony]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

If he lowers the amount of square footage, he's going to need to make up that money somewhere. I'd say the first place he'll turn is VE. I'd rather have the high quality fatties than a slim Kensington.

I would like to see him save money by shaving off a few floors of the underground garage. Cut the garage in half, cut the building in half. I don't know if the economics work out that simple, but it makes a nice soundbite.

Those lost parking spaces would be added to the downtown parking space limit pool. I'd like them to disappear forever, but in reality if Chiofaro doesn't build them here that means someone else will be allowed to build them somewhere else.

Also I think his ego is too big to allow VE to get out of hand. He's old, his developments are personal to him, and he is building a legacy as much as a tower.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I know I just didn't like the straw-man of towers in the park.

Well I didn't like "density is good" as an absolute

 

[tobyjug]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

It looks ok to me. But is Mr. C "all hat and no cattle"?

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

They are massive from certain views, and I'm not thrilled about that.

But, the argument that opaque white blobs is equal to contextual views with finishes, reflections, light, etc. is disingenuous.

If you're talking massing, make everything a massing model. If you want to show them in context, then plop a realistic model in there.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

It looks ok to me. But is Mr. C "all hat and no cattle"?

Well, he built IP so he has spent some time on the ranch before...

That don't necessarily guarantee he can do again though.

 

[tobyjug]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Thanks, pard.

 

[Justin7]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

This is about massing. It doesn't matter what the facade looks like or how much glass they use, the building will not be transparent, despite whatever they wish to show in shiny renders. There will be interior walls, so the building might as well be studied as a white mass which is why we do massing models.

Yes, massing is important, but it cannot be taken alone to represent the aesthetic impact (or as the prof put it, obviously without bias, the "visual consequences") of a building.

Sure, there is too much fat, but is this really the location to pick a fight? It is height restricted, it is opening up the waterfront, adding housing in an area that needs it, and it is replacing a garage.

If Mr. Thrush wants to publicly offer criticism perhaps he should start a little closer to home

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

As none of Chiofaro's street-scale renders distinguish the two buildings in any manner from the standpoint of color, cladding, glazing, etc. The massing model image by the NU professor is not off the mark.

^^^SW corner.

^^^^NW Corner

Was Chiofaro too cheap to revise the renders to incorporate the rust / terracotta cladding, or has the rust / terracotta cladding already found its way to the design dumpster?

This, regrettably, seems to be par for the course, --a parading out quarter-baked proposals that are never revealed in full form.

 

[nico]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Don should propose identical copies of the Harbor Towers - pool/fence and all.
It would be interesting to see the BRA and community respond. What arguments against them could anyone have that wouldn't also apply to the current towers?

 

[FortPointGuy]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

You mean like this?

http://bostinno.streetwise.co/2014/11/12/impact-of-chiofaro-harbor-square-proposal-on-harbor-towers-residents-george-thrush-rendering/

Maybe I'm an architecture/design/urban planing bumpkin but I walk by this very spot most mornings with the dog and basically dream the towers have already been built and look approximately just like that, massing and all. I wish someone would buy the fenced off pool and build another similar (to Chifaro) tower right there so I could look at the luxury project complex Harbor Towers even less.

Net/net, I'm betting on this getting permitted simply because its a signature work on a conspicuous site filled by an inconspicuous parking garage, the construction of which will employ A TON of folks. The kicker being Walsh having built himself up on the backs of said folks via their union dues.

 

[type001]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Don should propose identical copies of the Harbor Towers - pool/fence and all.
It would be interesting to see the BRA and community respond. What arguments against them could anyone have that wouldn't also apply to the current towers?

This.

It's like what the Daily Show's Jason Jones asked Redskins' fans who think the name is inoffensive. "Would you call a Native American a redskin to their face?"

 

[type001]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Maybe I'm an architecture/design/urban planing bumpkin but I walk by this very spot most mornings with the dog and basically dream the towers have already been built and look approximately just like that, massing and all. I wish someone would buy the fenced off pool and build another similar (to Chifaro) tower right there so I could look at the luxury project complex Harbor Towers even less.

Net/net, I'm betting on this getting permitted simply because its a signature work on a conspicuous site filled by an inconspicuous parking garage, the construction of which will employ A TON of folks. The kicker being Walsh having built himself up on the backs of said folks via their union dues.

This too.

 

[Mongo]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Maybe I'm an architecture/design/urban planing bumpkin but I walk by this very spot most mornings with the dog and basically dream the towers have already been built and look approximately just like that, massing and all. I wish someone would buy the fenced off pool and build another similar (to Chifaro) tower right there so I could look at the luxury project complex Harbor Towers even less.

Net/net, I'm betting on this getting permitted simply because its a signature work on a conspicuous site filled by an inconspicuous parking garage, the construction of which will employ A TON of folks. The kicker being Walsh having built himself up on the backs of said folks via their union dues.

You know what? The massing in that rendering doesn't look that bad to me BECAUSE the near tower is broken up by the harbor towers. If it was standing alone on the harbor I'd have a real problem, but the harbor towers breaks up that slab nicely.

 

[davem]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Don should propose identical copies of the Harbor Towers - pool/fence and all.
It would be interesting to see the BRA and community respond. What arguments against them could anyone have that wouldn't also apply to the current towers?

I've been thinking the exact same thing, minus the pool. Maybe a tennis court