[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
Then the city is stuck with the garage. No money to be made from it but parking.
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Riff -- the top floor penthouse at the Millenium Tower is listed for $37.5M

There is BIG MONEY$ to be made in high end condos -- put a condo tower in the $450 to $600 foot class on the waterfront -- you've got 15 to 30 of the best residential views in North America -- Cape Cod on a clear day
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

whighlander said:
Riff -- the top floor penthouse at the Millenium Tower is listed for $37.5M

There is BIG MONEY$ to be made in high end condos -- put a condo tower in the $450 to $600 foot class on the waterfront -- you've got 15 to 30 of the best residential views in North America -- Cape Cod on a clear day
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That's only a perc. You can't depend on building a high end condos hoping some billionaire will pay 50million for the top building.

I think their is too much risk at this point to even consider knocking the garage down. The developer claims the garage is a cash cow why even bother?

Lock in a 30 year note with low interest rates: and let the Harbor Tower parking spaces expire 2017 or 2022--Whenever.
Then let the city and state beg you to knock down the garage with Taxpayer incentives like every other project in the city.
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
That's only a perc. You can't depend on building a high end condos hoping some billionaire will pay 50million for the top building.

I think their is too much risk at this point to even consider knocking the garage down. The developer claims the garage is a cash cow why even bother?

Lock in a 30 year note with low interest rates: and let the Harbor Tower parking spaces expire 2017 or 2022--Whenever.
Then let the city and state beg you to knock down the garage with Taxpayer incentives like every other project in the city.
Click to expand...

Riff -- you get a presale of $100M worth of high-end, high-up condos -- you'll have no problem with financing anything you can imagine and slip by the FAA

more:

in the 500' to 600' elevation -- aka above everything along the waterfront you can get $2000+ per sq ft looking toward the open ocean and harbor and somewhat less looking downtown

Design the top levels of the building the right way to maximize the good views and you are in business
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

If shadows on the Long Wharf are such an issue, the solution would seem to be to swap the park between Milk & Central Streets + the IMAX site with Chefario in exchange for an agreement to build a shorter/more compliant structure and a new, better IMAX.

Recreating the footprint of the park along East India Row would open up harbor directly to the greenway (which it seems is what people want --- I think it's stupid, but whatever). It would quiet Harbor Tower resident protests, since the new tower would be further away from their buildings. And furthermore, it should allow a series of shorter buildings plus a thin tower to be built for the same amount of square footage, which it appears is what everyone wants.

Hell, this could be taken even further. Give Chefario the Aquarium in exchange for building a new one where the garage is now. Then redevelop all of Central Wharf. The aquarium really sucks, and is a tremendous waste of space. It would also be far nicer for visitors if it opened directly onto the greenway, instead of being hidden behind trees and across a big plaza. Imagine the sea lions right on the greenway? Chefario wins because he gets to develop an entire wharf plus sites along the greenway instead of just the garage. The public wins because you get a lot of shorter buildings, a greatly improved public realm, and a new aquarium.

I'm also of the opinion that old Atlantic Ave should be extended through the garage site, but I think I'm alone in that stance.


There are so many possible solutions here that could be a huge win for everyone, but no one seems to want to look past their own particular grievances.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

whighlander said:
Riff -- you get a presale of $100M worth of high-end, high-up condos -- you'll have no problem with financing anything you can imagine and slip by the FAA

more:

in the 500' to 600' elevation -- aka above everything along the waterfront you can get $2000+ per sq ft looking toward the open ocean and harbor and somewhat less looking downtown

Design the top levels of the building the right way to maximize the good views and you are in business
Click to expand...

Unless you get tenants to commit before the building is built then you're in business: I agree that the value might be there but I also see a financial crisis in the future which could get some of these developers trapped. If the developer is making money off the garage the longer he waits it seems the more favorable the deal with get overtime. (Especially with the expirations to the Harbor Tower scenarios)

Also can't the developer just build on top of the garage and add apartments?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
If not who gives shit.
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I just want to say. This is so much better of a sentence than 'Who gives a shit?" A, is just an extra unnecessary word in that question. I mean really, who gives shit? What is 'a shit' anyways? Like the entire mess you just left in the toilet? Or just a single chunk of it? The above takes away all the ambiguity.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^^

Sorry for the misappropriation:

Just deleted it.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I was being sincere. Not just trying out new material....
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

davem said:
If shadows on the Long Wharf are such an issue, the solution would seem to be to swap the park between Milk & Central Streets + the IMAX site with Chefario in exchange for an agreement to build a shorter/more compliant structure and a new, better IMAX.

Recreating the footprint of the park along East India Row would open up harbor directly to the greenway (which it seems is what people want --- I think it's stupid, but whatever). It would quiet Harbor Tower resident protests, since the new tower would be further away from their buildings. And furthermore, it should allow a series of shorter buildings plus a thin tower to be built for the same amount of square footage, which it appears is what everyone wants.

Hell, this could be taken even further. Give Chefario the Aquarium in exchange for building a new one where the garage is now. Then redevelop all of Central Wharf. The aquarium really sucks, and is a tremendous waste of space. It would also be far nicer for visitors if it opened directly onto the greenway, instead of being hidden behind trees and across a big plaza. Imagine the sea lions right on the greenway? Chefario wins because he gets to develop an entire wharf plus sites along the greenway instead of just the garage. The public wins because you get a lot of shorter buildings, a greatly improved public realm, and a new aquarium.

I'm also of the opinion that old Atlantic Ave should be extended through the garage site, but I think I'm alone in that stance.


There are so many possible solutions here that could be a huge win for everyone, but no one seems to want to look past their own particular grievances.
Click to expand...

Davem -- the problem with what to you looks on paper to be a simple solution is that it would literally take decades to arrange the swaps -- not even counting the financing and the construction

Your swap involves multiple public and private entities, including the Non-profit New England Aquarium, with all sorts of layers of lawyers who all need to be well fed. Once you touch the parks, Greenway and Central Wharf you have to include dealing with the legislature, the Boston City Council, the US Army Corps of Engineers, and even possibly the US Congress

They tried moving the Aquarium to the Charlestown Navy Yard once -- and the Aquarium is still on Central Wharf
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I liked the idea, but to simplify. I like the idea of partnering with and extending the Aquarium to the Greenway (thru the new development) instead. An interactive tunnel let's say, with exhibit space/tanks along it that guides you to the existing Aquarium. (Something akin to the underwater tube in Jaws 3D, minus the shark biting thru it.) That would help grease some gears and allow for some give and take between the two. Might make the IMAX relocate a little smoother as well.

Incorporating a real connection between the Aquarium and the T station that bears it's namesake would be nice too. Again with actual free exhibit stuff as well to get you to the pay stuff.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Whigh, anything can be done with enough money. Especially if it gets the backing of said parties. As it is it seems like the current proposal is a boondoggle anyway, and I would be okay waiting a few extra years for permitting for a vastly superior proposal.


Central Wharf is the better piece of real estate for residential anyway. I'm sure Chiofaro would be interested if the idea gained traction among his opponents.
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

SeamusMcFly said:
I liked the idea, but to simplify. I like the idea of partnering with and extending the Aquarium to the Greenway (thru the new development) instead. An interactive tunnel let's say, with exhibit space/tanks along it that guides you to the existing Aquarium. (Something akin to the underwater tube in Jaws 3D, minus the shark biting thru it.) That would help grease some gears and allow for some give and take between the two. Might make the IMAX relocate a little smoother as well.

Incorporating a real connection between the Aquarium and the T station that bears it's namesake would be nice too. Again with actual free exhibit stuff as well to get you to the pay stuff.
Click to expand...


Yeah thought about those ideas 2000 posts back: At this point we won't see the Aquarium be part of the development.

Menino squashed this development before it ever could have taken into any real fruition of an epic development plan for the city.
Chiofaro did bring up the idea in the first original proposal about relocating IMax in his development.

Bottom line Menino hated Chiofaro so he never worked with developing a real vision for the Greenway:

If I was the Mayor at the time I would have gave Chiofaro the height only to bring him and the Aquarium Executives to help rebuild the entire area and incorporate the Aquarium with the development.
Boston could have had a state of the art Aquarium right next to the Greenway.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

As far as I know the NEAQ has practically no money. They're unlikely to sign into a partnership that commits them to spending larger sums. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

BussesAin'tTrains said:
As far as I know the NEAQ has practically no money. They're unlikely to sign into a partnership that commits them to spending larger sums. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
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The idea would be Chiofaro would pay for the new, improved aquarium in exchange for getting Central Wharf and no more complaints.


Part of the reason they have no money is lack of patrons, particularly members. My girlfriend loves penguins, so I got her a membership one year. Didn't renew, because after going ourselves three times and her bringing friends, etc, it was the most boring thing ever. There's barely anything to see. A larger space would likely be a huge boon to membership, and hence operating funds.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

BussesAin'tTrains said:
As far as I know the NEAQ has practically no money. They're unlikely to sign into a partnership that commits them to spending larger sums. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Click to expand...

Buses -- I think the money thing had something to do with the Charlestown Navy Yard move that wasn't

It seems that when the Aquarium was built as the state-of-the-art on the planet ["Giant Ocean Tank"] - the Aquarium never got much $ out of the entire deal

All of the subsequent development has been done on the cheap -- leveraging its location on Central Wharf and the access it provides to the crowd from Faneuil Hall / Quincy Market

Of the 5 major Museums in Boston the Aquarium is at the bottom when $ are involved:
1 MFA
2 MOS
3 Boston Childrens Museum*
4 Institute for Contemporary Arts*
5 New England Aquarium

* not completely sure of the ranking of 3 and 4

So since the value of the Aquarium structures to the Aquarium is only their use -- unless some outside fat cat came along to build a new Aquarium they are staying on Central Wharf where they have a good deal on the lease for the ground under their buildings
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The only truth here is that the garage has got to go...I'm not so sure that office space is best use. Hotel/residential/retail absolutely.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

And as usual. The comments are so so fun to read....
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

At this point I would just keep the garage and charge a $100.00 a day
 
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