[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

[stellarfun]

For those that believe that parking garages along the Greenway are cash cows.

http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/real_estate/2011/07/intercontinental-garage-woes-ripple.html

 

[West]

..Once.

It isn't the trip to anyplace that kills you as a parent, its that trip home. Your visit to the NEAQ has a hard stop at exactly that moment the kids say "my feet hurt" or "I'm tired"...before that nobody wants to leave and after that moment nobody wants to start a transit trip.

...

But ain't no way* once you're a prosperous car-owning kid-having suburbanite that you're both going to pay the big bucks for an admission/membership to the Aquarium and then have to drag kids through transit connections or street walks who are "tired of walking" and need a nap. Their auto-dependence clearly snuck up on the Aquarium and they're doomed if they lose easy parking access.

This entire post was good but these bits are brilliant, spoken as only a parent could write them.

My daughters are college age now, so it's been a while for me, but this is spot on truth. We'd take the Green Line to Blue sometimes to the Aquarium, or Green/Red to Children's Museum, or what have you. But the giant risk really was that ride home. And recall that D branch trains are often single car on Sundays, and often pretty well full as a result. So there we'd be, with two girls going into cranky mode, on a crowded train, and then facing a seven minute walk from the station to home. We're huge transit riders, but there would come a point where we'd look at each other and say fuck it, next time we're driving and paying for the parking.

When I was a twenty-something, I'd see parents with small children having melt-downs in public, and I'd think "why can't these parents sort themselves and their kids out better?", with the implicit assumption being that I could do it better. Then I became a parent and learned some hard truths.

Once my girls got into the range where the younger was eight or so (older being two years older) then the train rides were more predictably a fun adventure even if crowded. But with toddlers? "Let's just drive" is an incredibly easy default mode if one can afford it (we can). Whole different rationale for those who can't afford the drive, but for them, the Aquarium entry cost is a hurdle, too.

And I fully agree with that last bit, too, that the car-dependence probably snuck up on the Aquarium. It's so easy to see that T stop right there and think "problem solved", but then you start talking to real live customers and get a different story.

None of this translates into "planning a city around suburbanites who drive to the city a few times a year" as someone phrased it above. Of course no city should be planned for such infrequently-visiting suburbanites. But remember that this city IS to some degree (not totally) planned for suburbanites who commute to the city five days a week. And the Aquarium itself is in an awkward in between situation: it's in an awesome location if it were a regular M-F 9-5 business, but it's in fact in a very different business in terms of client travel timing, which is weekends and snow days and holidays. So while the T helps a lot for some percentage of Aquarium visitors, the Aquarium also really needs that parking. That parking that it doesn't own. Oops.

 

[shawn]

More anecdotes, but what the hell . . .

I am a suburbanite by birth (Hyde Park is suburban), and once the fam up and left for Norfolk County, the transition was complete. But we still went into town quite a bit, for the Science Museum, Aquarium, USS Constitution, and later the MFA and Isabella Stuart.

My parents tried really hard to use transit when my bother and I were younger than 8-10 (we are also two years apart), always playing up the adventure of riding the train and subway. And it was a fun adventure . . . on the way to. On the way home, however, it was inevitably a disaster: walking the Aquarium or Charlestown Navy Yard back to South Station was a full-on battle each and every time. To a 6 or 8 year old, that walk might as well be a trek through the Amazon.

My parents came to the same conclusion West did: F this, it's the car from now on because I'm done dealing with my kids' utterly-predictable meltdowns. Once we were around 10 or so, it was back to trains and subways.

The Aquarium needs parking to service its core client base.

 

[Mongo]

Isn't the plan to put an equivalent number of spaces underground at this site? So there would still be Aquarium parking, but just underground?

It would work well with an office tower too since office traffic and aquarium traffic won't conflict that much.

 

[West]

Isn't the plan to put an equivalent number of spaces underground at this site? So there would still be Aquarium parking, but just underground?

It would work well with an office tower too since office traffic and aquarium traffic won't conflict that much.

That's what I've most typically heard tossed out, to such an extent as Chiofaro has put out his thinly detailed ideas. And you're right, the conflict between office and Aquarium parking would be nominal. The conflict between aquarium and residential parking patterns would be more problematic. That'd be true whether we are talking about harbor tower parking and/ or new residential units put up above a replaced garage. The current mix of parking demands apparently work for now with the current supply. Throw a few hundred more residential units in the mix? Not clear.

 

[tangent]

This is so silly. The Aquarium does not own the garage and has no right to complain about its necessity or demolition. I know it's a cash cow for the owner, but just close it and see how quickly all sides give in to the plan.

Likewise there is no legal right to build a tall building here. Everything that has been proposed is an exception to the height restrictions. Everyone has a right to complain.

 

[tangent]

If the Aquarium Executives were savvy they would have bought the garage but keeping a Cement Block like this on the Greenway connected to the water is a SIN.

The Aquarium Executives at this point should be working with the developer trying to make plan to be incorporated into this development or possible raising funds to rebuild their own structure. MASS is the leading area to Life Sciences. Work with the Life Science communities, Biotech, Fishing Industries.

If Chiofaro reopens the entire ground floor foot traffic in that area would explode by 1000's.

The Developer would completely reinvent the area also the Aquarium could reinvent itself into something like a 1st class Aquarium with massive fundraising to rebuild the same time the developer is building.
Either these executives are lazy, stupid or inept-- something doesn't seem right on there logic.

THE GARAGE GOTTA GO

The Aquarium has invested millions in their current location since Menino blocked the relocation. They get good numbers on how many people use the garage when they visit. Members get validated for a small discount, so they know.

The Aquarium IS what enlivens the waterfront, not condos.

 

[type001]

My turn...

I have young kids, we love the aquarium and coming into town for all the nearby attractions all year round. I also work near the garage and love using it on days when I go to work late and my normal public transportation won't cut it.

That being said, tear down this garage yesterday, build something huge, and STFU Aquarium executives/supporters, Harbor Tower Residents, and the likes of you.

Families will adapt, Harbor Tower residents can move to Littleton, and too bad for the Aqurium. It's not your garage period.

 

[Arlington]

The Aquarium has invested millions in their current location since Menino blocked the relocation.

If the City would pony up some tax increment financing to goad the State into building the Red-Blue connection would be a huge help, not just for the Aquarium, and Ciafaro, and MGH, but all the Boston neighborhoods along the Blue. They would clearly earn it all back in increased real estate values and keeping the vitality in the city (all the way to Suffolk Downs), and yes, it would keep the vitality at Aquarium without the need for the garage.

 

[stellarfun]

If one goes back to the history of Harbor Towers, the towers were built on BRA parking lots. The garage was/is far too large for the number of spacers that would be needed by HT residents, so I'll wager the size was dictated by the BRA, in large measure to replace the loss of the surface parking lots.

If development of the HT site was contingent on there being a garage constructed, its possible that condition exists in perpetuity. If so, all the fulminating about getting rid of the garage is for naught.

 

[fattony]

I think we should build a parking garage/lot adjacent to every downtown tourist attraction to make it easy for parents to bring their children door-to-door. In fact, it sure would be more convenient for EVERYONE if EVERYTHING had a parking lot next door. The grocery store can have a parking lot. Each restaurant can have a parking lot. Even the post office!

We can drive our personal cars from the driveways in front of our homes to everywhere we want to be! Granted, we might need to build a few more big highways, widen city streets to accommodate the traffic, and level a few hundred years of historical structures to make parking... but it will all be for the KIDS!! Bonus - we can spend maximum time in our climate controlled bubbles!

Guess what guys? 99.9% of the land area of the United States is built on this model. Let the rest of us have the few decent urban areas. If your snot-nosed kids can't walk on the sidewalk for 10 minutes, then they can't go to downtown attractions. My personal opinion is that your kids CAN handle it. A thousand generations of people have raised their children in cities without cars. We haven't evolved as a species in the last 100 years.

If the Aquarium's existence depends on generating downtown auto-traffic, then they really really should have relocated a long time ago. I have no sympathy for them. However I think they, and everyone else in this thread, have completely overstated their dependence on that one garage.

The aquarium claimed that 40% of their customers use the Harbor Garage. Not 100%, not 75%. And 40% of customers don't represent 40% of revenue because much of it comes from large donations. During 2-3 years of construction, those 40% can choose a different garage or give transit a try or not show up at all. A gift from Chiofaro could cushion any residual revenue loss.

 

[Arlington]

A thousand generations of people have raised their children in cities without cars. We haven't evolved as a species in the last 100 years.

Your argument seems to balance on this fulcrum, which ignores several more-salient realities:
1) Those thousands of generations didn't have "destination" Museums and Aquariums, either
2) Leisure time and family time are recent inventions (1880 - 1950), with "quality time" being a 1980s concept.
3) We have not evolved physically, but consumer expectations are light-years from where they were 100 years ago.
4) Corporate donors donate based on "viewership"/visitorship. Kill the visits, and the sponsors leave too.
5) The New England Aquarium, almost by definition, needs to draw visits from rich, upper-middle class people who've scattered themselves all over New England to sustain itself.
6) This is not a "is it possible to make a trip to NEAQ" the question is "is it PREFERRED" to make such a trip as a leisure consumer.

Even in Boston, 85% commute by car* so, yeah, most consumer preference for walking as part of "leisure fun" ends at the most distant spot at the mall.

MFA? Own Garage, Surface Lots, On-street, Transit.
MOS? Own Garage + Transit
Lego? Free Garage + Transit
Coco Keys, Laser Tag, Rock Climbing, Malls, IMAX. Drive, drive, drive.

If you're cheap, how about a nice 2K or 4K video of fish at home? Or, if you're rich, SeaWorld Orlando opened in 1973 (a decade after NEAQ) and can out-fish, out-experience, out-touch NEAQ for that one day every year or three your (rich) family is "into fish" (and they have better "water" weather 80% of the time).

The Aquarium has to *win* the contest to get a family's 4 hours and $100 to $125, (or $150 to $200/yr). Second place is first loser.

Make the Aquarium the first loser for 85% of families, and you'll kill it. Kill visitorship, kill sponsorship, kill the whole thing.

This is not just a Boston problem. On bad weather weekends, a newer wing of The American Museum of Natural History on NYC's Upper West Side (a destination made possible the the streetcar, originally, not walking, and made prosperous by the subway), has more minivans on 2 underground levels, parked closer together than any factory lot. Ask even them if they could live without their garage.

*I suspect that 95% of "moms and dads" commute by car, because it turns into the ballet/karate/gymnastics/soccer/basketball/track shuttle. Suburban kids** walk nowhere, and changing their lives isn't going to start with the Aquarium.

**except mine, and a sprinkle of free-range parenting devotees, but that's enough to support a branch library, not a waterfront aquarium.

After being members of NEAQ in 2004 (Nemo mania) and 2012/13 (when our visits were summer Sundays parked on street in the FiDi), we joined the Virginia Aquarium in 2014 and went every rainy day (4 days?) during our Virginia Beach vacation. For us, the Aquarium is now officially a beach vacation thing, not a transit thing because, even from my Zone 1A home in Medford it is still a 3-seat ride (Bus/CR-GL/OL-BL) with an awful trip back (hard to time leaving the NEAQ versus catching CR trains that only run every 2hrs weekends, or even vs the 80 bus that only runs hourly, and that's assuming no melt-downs/aching feet).

 

[Lrfox]

*LRFox and I are exceptional in our train-loving, and hardly the basis of NEAQ's business model. And NEAQ knows this.

Probably true. We hoof it all over the city with the kids. Honestly, I'd rather them be tired and cranky on the train then out cold in the car when they'll catch an inevitable second wind at home just before bed time. We've also utilized Uber when it's just not possible to make the walk back somewhere. The kids assume all of the Uber drivers are my "friends." Since they greet me by name and our 3 and 4 year old can't fathom how that would happen otherwise.

But you're probably right. I go out of my way to be in the city when I'm in town. Even with the kids. I've found that the experience of being in the city (all of it, not just the animals at the aquarium) and the sights, smells, sounds, etc. are all incredibly stimulating and fun. Stuff as simple as a cluster of pigeons, a homeless person yelling, bus honking, ambulance rolling by, etc. add to the fun of a day in the city with the Aquarium being the center piece. Most suburban families don't see it that way. They drive to the garage, go to the aquarium and drive home.

 

[TheRifleman]

The Aquarium has invested millions in their current location since Menino blocked the relocation. They get good numbers on how many people use the garage when they visit. Members get validated for a small discount, so they know.

The Aquarium IS what enlivens the waterfront, not condos.

If Chiofaro builds what he envisions the Aquarium will see 1000's of more people on a daily basis which will boost future revenues. The entire area will be very lively
That block on the Greenway has the most potential in the entire city to be a destination spot of tourists and foot traffic.
(Skating Rink)
4 Seasons type theme walk through with a Retractable roof.
The people here saying we need to keep the garage for the Aquarium are very feeble minded fools.

If the Aquarium needed a garage their lazy executives should have tried to raise the money to buy it.
If people want to drive into the city they can park at IP, Intcon, or the other 5 garages around the area.

They will adapt. The garage suppresses this area to its full potential--A development of Chiofaro magnitude would benefit the public along with taxpayers of this city & state.
It would also help if we clean up the MBTA and invest for the future in this 1st class city. MBTA infrastructure is garbage.

The bigger the better to develop on this SITE.

 

[Arlington]

If the Aquarium needed a garage their lazy executives should have tried to raise the money to buy it.

They should have, yes, or should not have allowed themselves to be strong-armed by Menino into staying put without a stronger assurance that the Red-Blue connector would be built. (or heck, ensure that Central Station be built on the NSRL, which'd turn a whole lot of choppy 3-seat rides from the burbs into frequent 1-seat rides)

That they called it wrong in the past does not mean NEAQ is wrong in telling us that they consider parking loss an existential threat (and if you value it as a city institution, you have to seriously weigh that they might be correct).

The bigger the better to develop on this SITE

What, no worry about traffic? Sheesh, big stuff here is much more likely to contribute cars to rush hour than the Casino.

 

[TheRifleman]

Let's get something straight about these Aquarium Executives living off these poor Sea Lions who have no freedom and swim along in a disgusting toilet bowl.

They should be set free. But these executives continue to collect their fat paychecks and bonuses but don't want to improve the Aquarium. Also they pay their employees garbage. So how good is the help taking care of this place.

I have brought my family their 2 years ago they never mention once to go back there. They just don't get that excited going there compared to heading to a more comparable exhibit like the Childrens Museum.

Concerning TRAFFIC (There will be less traffic thinking on the overall scale of development)

Think of it this way. This development is centralized in the city right on a hardrail.
Developments that are not built on a hardrail outside or not in the heart of the city will create more congestion.

The higher and bigger the developments centralized in the city especially on a hardrail in theory should reduce traffic and help the city of Boston grow.

They will have to build somewhere for growth make sure the squarefootage is major on the Hardrails.

 

[fattony]

Your argument seems to balance on this fulcrum, which ignores several more-salient realities:

And your argument loses balance on all my other points. If the Aquarium is in the wrong location for their business model, that sucks for them. You don't try to shape the city around the needs of the Aquarium.

 

[statler]

That assumes that the Aquarium is just another business and doesn't serve a greater good for the city, which in my opinion and the opinion of many others, it does.

 

[nico]

A lot of great points here - but ultimately I think the aquarium should go. Not because of this development, but because it just doesn't stack up well against aquariums in such fine cities as Dallas & Baltimore - and it's not even close.

The development should be the solution here rather than the problem.

 

[statler]

I would love to see the Aquarium redone, but I still think that even in it's current condition it is a major asset for the city and the city would be worse without it.

Honestly the waterfront is mostly boring as fuck. The NEA is probably the most interesting thing there. Take that away it it's...a nice walk? Kinda?