[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Arborway, that was a fantastic essay. Thank you.

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Wasn't the Georgia Aquarium built pretty much entirely with money donated from the founder of Home Depot?

If someone would step up with the money to build a brand new aquarium, coupled with these towers getting built, that would be big for the area.

Yep, he gave $250M of the original $300M. But give that we can't get people to donate money for (take your pick): a new YMCA, a history museum, a garden under the glass, a vague center for the arts, etc . . .

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Actuallt, Arborway, I will pick one nit:

Of course, none of what's proposed today will actually hurt the city. Quite the opposite.

I still think there is too much of a knee jerk reaction on this forum sometimes that developers can do no wrong. Granted NIMBY's swing the pendulum too far the other way, but I still think there is a huge chance of harm to the waterfront from the current proposal, it just don't come in the form of shadows, wind or density, but rather monolithic dead, blank street walls.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Actuallt, Arborway, I will pick one nit:



I still think there is too much of a knee jerk reaction on this forum sometimes that developers can do no wrong. Granted NIMBY's swing the pendulum too far the other way, but I still think there is a huge chance of harm to the waterfront from the current proposal, it just don't come in the form of shadows, wind or density, but rather monolithic dead, blank street walls.

I can agree with that statement. But the BRA also needs to work with all developers that can make Boston a great place instead of stonewalling certain developers to others.

 

[GW2500]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Arborway, great post. You calmly and logically call out this shadows fear for what it truely is. But you know if you said that to a nimby I'm pretty sure this would be their reaction: (first start off with a blank stare then) "Dahh shadows are bad, now get out of my way, there's a sale at The Christmas Tree Shop."

 

[Lurker]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I blame all the international feel good causes for killing modern patrons of civic facilities. The millions which used to go to building libraries, museums, parks, orphanages, schools, operas, symphonies, hospitals (the one thing still getting built these days), etc domestically is now going into pointless ventures and bottomless political pockets in the 3rd world.

Millions get spent sending food to starving kids whom wouldn't be starving if the parents knew free aid wasn't available. Children are 'adopted' by celebrities whom are really just buying a child as a fashion accessory to promote their career. All kinds of foolhardy and phony causes are sucking the philantrophy teat dry when it's needed the most.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Besides Chiofaro trying to make the Aquarium and the Greenway a better place to visit. Somebody should really ask what the Hell is the BRA and the Mayor doing. The Mayor won't even meet with Chiofaro to discuss options on this parcel?
They are not helping create jobs.
They are not helping to create more tax revenues.
Taxpayers dollars wasted on the Greenway Conservacy.
The Greenway has become a yearly maintaince expense to taxpayers.

Somebody really needs to ask this question to the BRA.

 

[Beton Brut]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

After a dispiriting four hours in the Brook Courthouse Jury Room, I walked the Greenway from Hanover to Aquarium Station on Tuesday. A bright, sunny afternoon, and I counted fewer than twenty people "hanging out."

I did see one of these parked near the Harbor Pavilion construction zone. In the realm of wasted money, can someone help me understand why the Greenway Conservancy needs the fully enclosed, heated and air conditioned model?

 

[Lurker]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman do you really expect the BRA to take questions from the little people? The only time public input is solicited is when the garden variety NIMBYs are needed to kill a project or put pressure on a developer to kowtow to the Mayor's Office.

The longer the Greenway fiasco drags on the more obvious it is that the conservancy is merely a place for people to collect a paycheck for no-show jobs. It probably is a great gig; make thousands of dollars, go to cocktail parties and talk about working for some grand civic park conservancy for the good of the people, but never actually do a damn thing.

 

[kennedy]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

What an elegant and clairvoyant post, Arborway. In every sense of the word, it was beautiful writing. You might want to expand on that, and submit it to the Globe as a letter to the editor, or perhaps, as an editorial.

Nothingness. What a spectacular way to describe the suburbs.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

So from the new rendering of the new 'square' at Fidelity Park, I take it there will be no big glass atrium lobby at the Arch and that the new 'square' will substitute for the 'Open to the Sea' vista originally proposed as a central feature of the Arch. And the Arch will have some monolithic street wall along Atlantic Ave., with a glass pavilion along the north face of the building.

I don't know why Chiofaro didn't go a step further and wander over to Devonshire St and talk to the owners of 237 State, the vintage commercial building across Fidelity Park from his garage. Has he so poisoned relationships with most of Boston's developers that they wouldn't give him the time of day about a joint development venture?

As for the Aquarium, once upon a time they were going to move to the Navy Yard, to the space where the Rehab hospital will now be built. Then as now, the Aquarium has felt land constrained on its 2.5 acre site, which was why the dolphin show was held on a floating barge tethered to the dock.

After the move to the Navy Yard was abandoned, the Aquarium subsequently began the design and fundraising for a $125 million, 110,000 sq ft expansion on the eastern side. That project was abandoned around the end of 2001, amid financial turmoil at the Aquarium.

The 110,000 sq ft addition would have brought the Aquarium to about 185,000 sq ft, still smaller than the [Baltimore] National Aquarium's 250,000 sq ft.

I think the basic calculus is that New England Aquarium doesn't have the square footage to increase the number of visitors significantly during peak season, without greatly compromising the viewing experience. And it would need a major expansion to do that, like taking all of Chiofaro's Harbor Garage site for starters.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

So from the new rendering of the new 'square' at Fidelity Park, I take it there will be no big glass atrium lobby at the Arch and that the new 'square' will substitute for the 'Open to the Sea' vista originally proposed as a central feature of the Arch. And the Arch will have some monolithic street wall along Atlantic Ave., with a glass pavilion along the north face of the building.

I don't know why Chiofaro didn't go a step further and wander over to Devonshire St and talk to the owners of 237 State, the vintage commercial building across Fidelity Park from his garage. Has he so poisoned relationships with most of Boston's developers that they wouldn't give him the time of day about a joint development venture?

As for the Aquarium, once upon a time they were going to move to the Navy Yard, to the space where the Rehab hospital will now be built. Then as now, the Aquarium has felt land constrained on its 2.5 acre site, which was why the dolphin show was held on a floating barge tethered to the dock.

After the move to the Navy Yard was abandoned, the Aquarium subsequently began the design and fundraising for a $125 million, 110,000 sq ft expansion on the eastern side. That project was abandoned around the end of 2001, amid financial turmoil at the Aquarium.

The 110,000 sq ft addition would have brought the Aquarium to about 185,000 sq ft, still smaller than the [Baltimore] National Aquarium's 250,000 sq ft.

I think the basic calculus is that New England Aquarium doesn't have the square footage to increase the number of visitors significantly during peak season, without greatly compromising the viewing experience. And it would new a major expansion to do that, like taking all of Chiofaro's Harbor Garage site for starters.

I think Chiofaro's play will be to help rebuild the entire area for the Aquarium with his development in the mix. This will be a great benefit to the Children of Mass. The Mayor and the BRA will be running around in circles claiming it's too high for shadows but as you will see we actually might get public pressure especially if the Aquarium staff jumps on board.

Boston needs a first rate Aquarium this will bring private money across the board.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

steller does have a point about there not really being enough land for both a world class aquarium and Chiofaro's project.

In a perfect world Chiofaro would be on good terms with the Harbor Tower folks and maybe make a deal to buy that useless, ridiculous pool area and build something there.

But really the only way any of this would work would be to West End everything between Columbus Park (some would include it) and Rowes Wharf and start from scratch.

Short of that, whatever we do actually end up with will just be a hodgepodge mess.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

steller does have a point about there not really being enough land for both a world class aquarium and Chiofaro's project.

In a perfect world Chiofaro would be on good terms with the Harbor Tower folks and maybe make a deal to buy that useless, ridiculous pool area and build something there.

But really the only way any of this would work would be to West End everything between Columbus Park (some would include it) and Rowes Wharf and start from scratch.

Short of that, whatever we do actually end up with will just be a hodgepodge mess.

In reality the Aquarium will not be moving anywhere for about 10 years unless they get a private donation for 300 Million. The economy is a disaster at this point for the city and state to invest anything for the Aquarium.
The city can barely afford to keep the Franklin Park Zoo open.

Also concerning space, The Aquarium could maximize their situtation with Chiofaro's Development. What I'm saying is they redeveloped their site with what private & Charitable funds then Chiofaro incorporates part of his development with the Aquarium you could have a really cool atmosphere in this area. Does the Aquarium have to be 300 Million dollar Aquarium to be awesome? Could it be half of that and done right for it to still work?
That is the question.
I think planned and done right, I think we have a win-win.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^I agree that it it is theoretically possible, but...

I think planned and done right

..this would require a level of cooperation among private/non-profit/neighborhood and government groups that is pretty much unheard of in this city.

Sorry, I guess I'm just feeling pessimistic this morning.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^I agree that it it is theoretically possible, but...



..this would require a level of cooperation among private/non-profit/neighborhood and government groups that is pretty much unheard of in this city.

Sorry, I guess I'm just feeling pessimistic this morning.

Honestly, I like what Chiofaro is thinking. But I'm with you on the pessimistic view. The city and state will have to give up control to the private developer which I never see happening. All Chiofaro has to make happy is the Aquarium people.

 

[PaulC]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

As for the Aquarium, once upon a time they were going to move to the Navy Yard, to the space where the Rehab hospital will now be built. Then as now, the Aquarium has felt land constrained on its 2.5 acre site, which was why the dolphin show was held on a floating barge tethered to the dock.

The original plan was to have the barge travel all over New England. Never happened, probably too much of a money maker at the Boston location.

The economy is a disaster at this point for the city and state to invest anything for the Aquarium.
The city can barely afford to keep the Franklin Park Zoo open.

Neither the city nor the state are involved with the Aquaruium and the state is trying to become free of the zoo. The only real money the state gives groups like this is to cover the cost of letting school groups in for free.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Neither the city nor the state are involved with the Aquaruium and the state is trying to become free of the zoo. The only real money the state gives groups like this is to cover the cost of letting school groups in for free.

But the city wants to give W-Hotel a 10 Million dollar loan for Luxury condos.

Tell me these city officials don't have their priorities messed up.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^The W will pay taxes back to the city, the NEA, not so much.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^The W will pay taxes back to the city, the NEA, not so much.

But the taxes should be used to promote education like Zoo's, Aquarium, Museums. Keeps the city cultural and kids out of trouble. I could careless if my taxes are being used for these causes.

I do care if my taxes are being used for political favors for luxury building.
Which means that either the developer paid too much for the project or it shouldn't be built if the Bankers don't provide the full financing.