[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

[Shepard]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Chiofaro's proposal is aethetically rancid at street level. He hasn't actively sought the support of other Greenway developers and owners for his project. The way he's courted the unions has been tepid. He's done a good job making the development process look like the three-ring circus it is, but newsflash: that's not going to get the towers built.

Chiofaro's ego may be every bit as much of a stumbling block as Menino's.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

If the BRA is already saying no height over 200ft in this area. What is the sense of going through the process?

To play by the rules that were already in place.
If the BRA changes the rules along the way he can drag them to court and say, "Hey, I did what I was supposed to, you need to tell them to hold up their end of the deal."

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

About the time he bought the garage, Chiofaro was in conversations with the city about what he wanted to build there. The building(s) he outlined were about 450 feet, IIRC. (A height not out of bounds with buildings already built or being built on the east side of the Greenway. SST will cast shadows on the Greenway at certain times of the day and year.)

Supposedly these conversations concluded with the BRA asking Chiofaro to further define/refine his proposal with more specifics. Chiofaro doesn't do that; instead, some months later, he unveils his new tower at just under 800 feet. No heads-up to the Mayor, or the BRA.

If I'm the BRA, and this is the correct sequence, I feel I've had a whole series of wasted conversations with this guy. Chiofaro then files an ENF with the state, in which he says there is no alternative to his 800 foot tower, other than the no-build and leave the garage in place, as is.

So his 800 foot tower proposal immediately gets chopped at by nearly everybody, including Massport and the FAA. Chiofaro retreats, and starts reducing the height. Then in his latest iteration, he is talking about creating a city square, flanked on one side by his tower, and involving property for which he has had no prior conversation with the property owners, including the NE Aquarium.

And while the city and the BRA are in the process of developing restrictions and limits on development near the Greenway, he absents himself from the process. Nobody is going to try and accommodate his concerns and hopes if he cannot make the effort to voice them during the process.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Supposedly these conversations concluded with the BRA asking Chiofaro to further define/refine his proposal with more specifics. Chiofaro doesn't do that; instead, some months later, he unveils his new tower at just under 800 feet. No heads-up to the Mayor, or the BRA.

I'm not sure how you came up with your sequence of events. But one thing is for sure. How could the mayor have a heads-up when he never even met with Chiofaro about his project. He definetely never supported the idea from the beginning. So why should Chiofaro give the Mayor a heads-up? Is the Mayor an architectural genius that needs to have a heads-up for every single development proposal?

The BRA and the Mayor have completely ruined the downtown area. Name one positive thing downtown that the BRA and the Mayor have created?

This country has had the biggest Trillion dollar real estate boom in HISTORY. What does the city of Boston have to show for it.

Box building at Fan Pier?
Hole in the ground at Filenes,
Trans(1,000ft TommyTower) Keep Dreaming

 

[Arborway]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

In Boston you have to propose something completely unfeasible. This way you're left with kinda sorta what you really want after the BRA drags you through the NIMBY and mayoral extor... process of concessions.

In my dream world, Chiofaro magically swaps the land with Hynes, and is allowed to build his original proposal on the Filene's site at its full height, with the only stipulation being that he is required to renovate Downtown Crossing station below.

The Filene's Alucotower is never realized, and 45 Province St. gets a big terra cotta sided sibling down the street.

Huzzah.

The fatal flaw in this plan is that it leaves the garage a garage, but it's better than getting something like Greenway Center 2.0 (aka 128 on 93)

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

In Boston you have to propose something completely unfeasible. This way you're left with kinda sorta what you really want after the BRA drags you through the NIMBY and mayoral extor... process of concessions.

In my dream world, Chiofaro magically swaps the land with Hynes, and is allowed to build his original proposal on the Filene's site at its full height, with the only stipulation being that he is required to renovate Downtown Crossing station below.

The Filene's Alucotower is never realized, and 45 Province St. gets a big terra cotta sided sibling down the street.

Huzzah.

The fatal flaw in this plan is that it leaves the garage a garage, but it's better than getting something like Greenway Center 2.0 (aka 128 on 93)

Keep dreaming about the swap of land but you might you be on the money about the garage staying put.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

If we are talking fantasies, I still like the Rifleman/statler Hotel-Condo-Apartment-Conference Center-NEA Waterfront Mega-complex.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

If we are talking fantasies, I still like the Rifleman/statler Hotel-Condo-Apartment-Conference Center-NEA Waterfront Mega-complex.

Statler we are too classless to live near the Harbor Tower residents. We would be much better off in the Chinatown district. One thing is for sure. That Waterfront Mega-Complex would be one F*cked up place.

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Then in his latest iteration, he is talking about creating a city square, flanked on one side by his tower, and involving property for which he has had no prior conversation with the property owners, including the NE Aquarium.

That's been my favorite part of this whole thing. The NEA director was like, "Wait, who's redeveloping the aquarium?!?!" It also kind of exposed Chiofaro as PR Stuntman . . . for good or bad.

 

[HenryAlan]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

There are many reasons to be critical of this project. Shadows ain't one of 'em.

People who complain about shadows are doing everything in their power to suburbanize urban spaces.

People who complain about shadows might very well complain about tunnel exhaust, too.

 

[JohnAKeith]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Proposed Boston Globe op-ed piece: "Mayor, Chiofaro fight; why are residents the ones getting fucked over?"

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Actually, tunnel exhaust is more a legitimate complaint than shadows.

Tallest dwarf and all that, but still.

Proposed Boston Globe op-ed piece: "Mayor, Chiofaro fight; why are residents the ones getting fucked over?"

Write it up!

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Proposed Boston Globe op-ed piece: "Mayor, Chiofaro fight; why are residents the ones getting fucked over?"

Which residents and HOW? If anybody is getting screwed it's the taxpayers and the Union laborers.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Residents of Boston, a.k.a. taxpayers.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Residents of Boston, a.k.a. taxpayers.

The headlines should say..........Taxpayers: Mayor needs to meet with Chiofaro to work out deal for city.

 

[KentXie]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Proposed Boston Globe op-ed piece: "Mayor, Chiofaro fight; why are residents the ones getting fucked over?"

Some residents fuck themselves over.

 

[KentXie]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I don't get it - if Chiofaro is so bent on developing his project, why doesn't he just do the studies that the BRA requested of him, just like they request of every other developer in the city who wants to do a big project? Take the BRA's argument away from them, beat them at their own game and just do the analysis and move on...Chiofaro is subject to the same rules as everybody else but he refuses to play by them. The BRA hasn't said "NO," they've asked Don to do studies of environmental impacts, and if he would just spend the time doing these studies, he could advance through the Article 80 process just like every other developer. If anyone's interested, the scoping document that asks for the studies is on the BRA website....nowhere in that document does it say "NO" to his project like Don would have everyone believe. Read it for yourself.

It's easy. Look at every developer that went through the process. Now count how many years it actually took to build the project, how many projects proposal failed, how many projects stalled, then count every tower that was mediocre in its impact towards the city and there's your answer. The process is too long and tedious and demanding that nothing significant gets built, many developers fail after getting approved, many projects stall, and many turn out stumpy. If Chiofaro has to change his pitch, the BRA needs to change their process, for all developers.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I'm not sure how you came up with your sequence of events. But one thing is for sure. How could the mayor have a heads-up when he never even met with Chiofaro about his project. He definetely never supported the idea from the beginning. So why should Chiofaro give the Mayor a heads-up? Is the Mayor an architectural genius that needs to have a heads-up for every single development proposal?

The BRA and the Mayor have completely ruined the downtown area. Name one positive thing downtown that the BRA and the Mayor have created?

This country has had the biggest Trillion dollar real estate boom in HISTORY. What does the city of Boston have to show for it.

Box building at Fan Pier?
Hole in the ground at Filenes,
Trans(1,000ft TommyTower) Keep Dreaming

All one need do is read a few profiles of Chiofaro to understand that he is pugnacious, tenacious, stubborn, boisterous, and maybe someone only his family truly loves. Those aren't necessarily bad attributes, but for the moment, it has left him as a one-shot wonder as a developer: International Place. In short, his list of adversaries is now a lot longer than his list of friends.

He got tossed as manager of his International Place by the union pension fund that was majority owner; he had a nasty legal fight with Tishman Speyer (whom he publicly called a "band of pirates"); he got kicked off two projects because he couldn't sign a lead tenant (one was One Lincoln, in which he subsequently sued Hynes and Gale and lost; the other, in 2000, was a city-owned waterfront parcel that he did nothing on for two years after being given development rights); he filed for bankruptcy on International Place, and nearly filed for bankruptcy on the same property a decade earlier.

Chiofaro's problems and difficulties pre-date Menino, and while Menino may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, he knows politically that opposing Chiofaro helps Menino, if only because Chiofaro has so many foes.

Chiofaro loves a fight, but picking fights doesn't mean you come out a winner. Chiofaro knows that, for better or worse, in Boston, you have to kiss the ring of the mayor and get his blessing if you want to proceed. The President of Harvard goes and kisses the ring, and Harvard gets pretty much what it wants in Allston, and the residents of Allston pretty much get rolled over.

Menino knows there are a lot more votes in the Harbor Towers and the North End opposed to Chiofaro and his tower then there are in favor of it. Voters in the rest of the city don't really give a rat's ass. The far easier course is for Menino to oppose this project. But Chiofaro has done just about everything he can do to publicly portray the mayor as a stubborn, insipid fool. And if Menino, who, IMO, is ultimately an insecure individual, concludes you are ridiculing him, you aren't going to do business with him.

And Menino knows a lot about Chiofaro's finances. He figures if need be, he can outlast Chiofaro and the $85 million balloon payment on the loan that helped Chiofaro buy the garage. And if Chiofaro can't refinance, the garage gets put up for auction by the noteholder. Chiofaro's ability to refinance is helped immeasurably be either getting construction of a tower started before then, or in getting a building of a certain size permitted.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

All one need do is read a few profiles of Chiofaro to understand that he is pugnacious, tenacious, stubborn, boisterous, and maybe someone only his family truly loves. Those aren't necessarily bad attributes, but for the moment, it has left him as a one-shot wonder as a developer: International Place. In short, his list of adversaries is now a lot longer than his list of friends.

He got tossed as manager of his International Place by the union pension fund that was majority owner; he had a nasty legal fight with Tishman Speyer (whom he publicly called a "band of pirates"); he got kicked off two projects because he couldn't sign a lead tenant (one was One Lincoln, in which he subsequently sued Hynes and Gale and lost; the other, in 2000, was a city-owned waterfront parcel that he did nothing on for two years after being given development rights); he filed for bankruptcy on International Place, and nearly filed for bankruptcy on the same property a decade earlier.

Chiofaro's problems and difficulties pre-date Menino, and while Menino may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, he knows politically that opposing Chiofaro helps Menino, if only because Chiofaro has so many foes.

Chiofaro loves a fight, but picking fights doesn't mean you come out a winner. Chiofaro knows that, for better or worse, in Boston, you have to kiss the ring of the mayor and get his blessing if you want to proceed. The President of Harvard goes and kisses the ring, and Harvard gets pretty much what it wants in Allston, and the residents of Allston pretty much get rolled over.

Menino knows there are a lot more votes in the Harbor Towers and the North End opposed to Chiofaro and his tower then there are in favor of it. Voters in the rest of the city don't really give a rat's ass. The far easier course is for Menino to oppose this project. But Chiofaro has done just about everything he can do to publicly portray the mayor as a stubborn, insipid fool. And if Menino, who, IMO, is ultimately an insecure individual, concludes you are ridiculing him, you aren't going to do business with him.

And Menino knows a lot about Chiofaro's finances. He figures if need be, he can outlast Chiofaro and the $85 million balloon payment on the loan that helped Chiofaro buy the garage. And if Chiofaro can't refinance, the garage gets put up for auction by the noteholder. Chiofaro's ability to refinance is helped immeasurably be either getting construction of a tower started before then, or in getting a building of a certain size permitted.

There is a flip side to your view. Menino will also be facing serious issue?s in Boston in the upcoming future. This guy has had a cake walk the last 20 years especially from the economic expansion from our colleges in the city. Now the city actually faces some serious issue's lack of job creation, budget deficits, city pensions, Revenue tax's declining. I think this guy might have stayed a little too long. Once Nov. comes our Fed govt. will be at gridlock again. No more stimulus or bailouts or federal grants for any city. It might be time to pay the piper
I remember hearing about the lawsuit on Lincoln St. Without knowing any facts, this is only a hunch, but I?m thinking Chiofaro sued Hynes and the Minority owners because he landed the tenant for the project so it could actually get built. State St Corp at that time was IP tenant. Then the relationship between the Minority Owners and Chiofaro probably got sour.
Tishman Speyer is defaulting on every project they bought in the last 4 years. I believe that commercial real estate is a cut throat industry at this point. The banks are letting Tishman restructure all their debt.
Chiofaro can?t be that dumb to think that the city was going to let him build whatever he wanted or let him build at all. So I would say that he might be locked into this garage development for the long run. I actually thought PRU and Chiofaro bought Harbor Garage cash them refinanced the project? Who knows.
I think the citizens of Boston will start to realize that they don?t want a concrete garage on the Greenway and will put pressure on the BRA to actually make some improvements in this location.
I could be wrong.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

There is a flip side to your view. ....
I remember hearing about the lawsuit on Lincoln St. Without knowing any facts, this is only a hunch, but I?m thinking Chiofaro sued Hynes and the Minority owners because he landed the tenant for the project so it could actually get built. State St Corp at that time was IP tenant. Then the relationship between the Minority Owners and Chiofaro probably got sour.
Tishman Speyer is defaulting on every project they bought in the last 4 years. I believe that commercial real estate is a cut throat industry at this point. The banks are letting Tishman restructure all their debt.
Chiofaro can?t be that dumb to think that the city was going to let him build whatever he wanted or let him build at all. So I would say that he might be locked into this garage development for the long run. I actually thought PRU and Chiofaro bought Harbor Garage cash them refinanced the project? Who knows.
.....

Your hunch on One Lincoln is wrong. Chiofaro was chosen co-developer by Columbia Plaza Associates, and he was supposed to arrange for the financing of the building, and get the project underway. The city was selling two parcels to the developers, including the Kingston St. garage. Because Chiofaro had done nothing on getting the project underway, the city was about to pull the designation of the development team, and the joint venture agreement between Chiofaro and Columbia Plaza was soon to expire.

Hynes comes along, sees an opportunity, and with Gale and Morgan Stanley money, quickly buys the two adjacent privately-owned parcels to complete the building footprint. With these parcels in hand, Hynes (and Gale/Morgan Stanley) go to a Midwestern teachers fund and basically join forces. The teachers fund will finance 90 percent of the building. Before this happens, Chiofaro's joint venture agreement with Columbia Plaza expires.

Chiofaro is squeezed out, but largely of his own doing. Chiofaro sues, it goes to trial, Chiofaro loses at trial.

One Lincoln was built on pure spec, one of the last Boston buildings to be so built. There was no pre-lease agreement with State St.

The other project where Chiofaro was de-designated as developer was something called Seaport Center, 17 stories and 500,000 sq ft. I don't know where it was located exactly, because Massport owns much of the land there. In this instance, the city de-designated him. For One Lincoln, while the city forced Columbia Plaza's hand, it was Columbia Plaza that actually de-designated him.