[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

[Shepard]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Without playing the blame game, it's clear that Chiofaro and this parcel are not a good marriage. He has a confrontational personality; this parcel calls for a subtle approach. There are other parcels where he can build his iconic tower, albeit not directly sitting on the waterfront. Perhaps that's a good thing: the renderings he's shown haven't really inspired confidence that he know's what he's doing there, especially at street level. And anyway, transferring his ambitions to a Greenway district parcel where the height IS allowed would virtually force the BRA's hand into letting him do what he wants - i.e. forcing them show it's not about the developer, but rather about the "rules."

Time for everyone to move on.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

From all that I read, he has yet to have a discussion with the Harbor Towers condo association about how he would propose to address the utilities and the parking spaces, and, in turn, received a reaction/response from them. He just throws stuff out there, and sees if anything sticks.

As for the Harbor Towers residents, most of them wouldn't have obstructed views; plus, the two towers already obstruct some views. And I suspect that if Chiofaro pitched that his ultra-expensive residences would increase the market value of their condos, they'd be receptive.

But he has such a long-standing reputation as a B.S.er, confrontational to the core; not always able to deliver, e.g., getting kicked out a development role in the State Street building; and continually flirting at the edge of bankruptcy, that frankly his promises don't mean much these days.

Let's assume the cost of a five level parking garage, with spaces for 800-900 cars along with a mooring and docking infrastructure costs $40-50 million. For him, that's a sunk cost even before he starts construction.

Then there's the matter of where to put the barge -- I note he has yet to say where it might go -- and before he even starts constructing this floating garage, he will need state and Federal permits. That's square one. And from everything I read, he hasn't done jacksh*t about any of this, other than float (deliberate pun) the concept.

How long do you think it would take for him to get the necessary permits for this floating garage: 12 months, 24 months, 36 months? Assuming he gets permits, how long to design, construct, ship, and put it in place: another 12 months, 18 months, 24 months? So starting today, it might be five years before a floating garage is operational and he can begin construction of his iconic building.

As for the idea of Chiofaro and the city teaming up to build a new Aquarium, I think I'll be able to walk on water before that happens.

My point was, why would any developer waste their time in discussing the parking and utilities with anybody over at Harbor towers association when the project isn't even considered over 200ft? That would mean their is no project to consider at this point just a garage. So the BRA is killing the project before anything is really etched in stone.

Wasn't that the same association that slapped a 46 million dollar tab to the current owners of the property for new heating & cooling grid? Are these people that stupid not to have sometype of insurance for the condo's infrastructure.

About filing bankruptcy it's better than using my tax dollars to bailout these losers. I applaud him for using the bankrutpcy system to maintain his building. Good for him. Trump did it, Tishman Speyer is defaulting on half their properties these days. Too bad the bankers didn't use the bankrutpcy system they used the taxpayers system.

Too bad Hynes will be bailed out on our dollar as Vornado won't lose any sleep.

5 years to build a floating garage? Should take a 5 months.

As for the Aquarium that will be the key to open the door to Chiofaro's project.

Without playing the blame game, it's clear that Chiofaro and this parcel are not a good marriage. He has a confrontational personality; this parcel calls for a subtle approach. There are other parcels where he can build his iconic tower, albeit not directly sitting on the waterfront. Perhaps that's a good thing: the renderings he's shown haven't really inspired confidence that he know's what he's doing there, especially at street level. And anyway, transferring his ambitions to a Greenway district parcel where the height IS allowed would virtually force the BRA's hand into letting him do what he wants - i.e. forcing them show it's not about the developer, but rather about the "rules."

Time for everyone to move on.

I can agree with Shepard?s statement. It might be time for everyone to move on from this project. Maybe we can move on to Filene's or Columbus how about the shitty Fan Pier project. The only other problem is we get stuck with a garage that looks like dog shit across the upcoming Greenway.
I feel for chiofaro on this one. I actually liked his first proposal just much lower than 770Ft for this area. Maybe what Massport okay-d the site for the height of 615 would be perfect.

 

[BosDevelop]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

There has to be a compromise here somewhere. How about Chiofaro finds some financing for Filenes (whether he plays a more prominent role in that project other than securing financing does not make a difference) and, in turn, the city agrees to give him more height for the Aquarium garage project (maybe 475-550 feet if that will get it done)

 

[HenryAlan]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Time for everyone to move on.

I'm about to the same conclusion. It really seems like a huge fight and struggle will be needed to get this done, and in the end, the result isn't worth that. The towers are interesting, but not enough to go through this process. I was out on the harbor on Sunday, and I kept looking at this space (along with some other spots) and concluded that to a certain extent, Shen is right. The proposal is too tall for that location. I don't care if it dwarfs the harbor towers, but it shouldn't dwarf the Custom House. I think Chioforo's design would look fantastic rising from behind International Place/Custom House/ first row of towers. The height would step up and it would leave some mystery about the base.

 

[GW2500]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

One things for certain: very expensive land + low height limit = future stump.
Sorry investors don't build for a loss. Unless it's the BRA's hope that the value of the land will go down so far that a two hundred foot building w/ make economic sense. Either way Boston looses.

 

[PaulC]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I've never liked the way the space between the two buildings would block off the waterfront even if it's glassed in. This is the first time I heard that the winter garden will open up in the nice weather. This is a much beter idea.

On Greater Boston Aug 8th:

http://www.wgbh.org/programs/programDetail.cfm?programid=11

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

My point was, why would any developer waste their time in discussing the parking and utilities with anybody over at Harbor towers association when the project isn't even considered over 200ft? That would mean their is no project to consider at this point just a garage. So the BRA is killing the project before anything is really etched in stone.

Wasn't that the same association that slapped a 46 million dollar tab to the current owners of the property for new heating & cooling grid? Are these people that stupid not to have sometype of insurance for the condo's infrastructure.

About filing bankruptcy it's better than using my tax dollars to bailout these losers. I applaud him for using the bankrutpcy system to maintain his building. Good for him. Trump did it, Tishman Speyer is defaulting on half their properties these days. Too bad the bankers didn't use the bankrutpcy system they used the taxpayers system.

Too bad Hynes will be bailed out on our dollar as Vornado won't lose any sleep.

5 years to build a floating garage? Should take a 5 months.

As for the Aquarium that will be the key to open the door to Chiofaro's project.

I can agree with Shepard?s statement. It might be time for everyone to move on from this project. Maybe we can move on to Filene's or Columbus how about the shitty Fan Pier project. The only other problem is we get stuck with a garage that looks like dog shit across the upcoming Greenway.
I feel for chiofaro on this one. I actually liked his first proposal just much lower than 770Ft for this area. Maybe what Massport okay-d the site for the height of 615 would be perfect.

When Chiofaro first discussed this project and this site with the BRA, he proposed a building about 475 feet tall. BRA said okay, come back to us with more details. They did not tell him, that's too tall, we're rejecting that out of hand. The BRA did not hear back from Chiofaro. The next they knew was his unveiling of the arched towers, at about 800 feet. (Never mind that Chiofaro knew, or should have known, that towers that high would run afoul of FAA and Massport guidelines.)

From the scoping document of July 2009 (developed in response to the arched towers):

N. PROPERTY CONSIDERATIONS
Consistent with the BRA?s approach to other projects currently proposed to occupy adjacent land owned by parties other than the Proponent, the Proponent must identify and delineate any and all property currently owned by others, including the BRA, that it proposes to occupy temporarily or permanently as part of the Proposed Project?s development.

The Proponent must also identify any and all private third party rights and/or interests in the Proposed Project site that would be affected by the Proposed Project?s development. These rights may include (but not be limited to): leases, easements, existing agreements, covenants, restrictions, and other encumbrances that may affect the Proponent?s ability to construct the Proposed Project. The Proponent must specify exactly how these rights and/or interests will be maintained, modified, or extinguished in connection with the Proposed Project?s development, and the Proponent must provide definitive evidence of authority to modify any third-party rights and/or interests in the Proposed Project site in the DPIR.

(emphasis in the original)

The scoping document did not rule out Chiofaro coming back with a project that was still nearly 800 feet, but it did set out requirements that he look at alternatives with respect to height, and that he provide detailed data for the arched tower.

Do you own real property? If you do, do you carry 'insurance' to pay the costs of replacing those parts of your property that have reached the end of their useful life?

In the case of the Harbor Towers, the HVAC was 30 years old, and probably at the end of its useful life. The replacement bill was very expensive, in some cases, the expense was greater than what unit owners paid for their condo when they bought it. If you want to be sole master of what you repair/replace and when, then don't ever buy a condo.

As for your estimate it would take five months from start to finish to get a floating garage, I put that in the same bucket as your criticism of the condo association for not buying insurance for replacing a building's components.

 

[Beton Brut]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

This is the first time I heard that the winter garden will open up in the nice weather. This is a much better idea.

Interesting. I did send one of Chiofaro's project managers information on Shigeru Ban's Swatch Building -- the roll-up facade would work well on both sides of the Harbor Garage proposal, even if it ends up being 200'.

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Do you own real property? If you do, do you carry 'insurance' to pay the costs of replacing those parts of your property that have reached the end of their useful life?

Most condo associations don't carry insurance for things like HVAC, but if the association is run well they'll have a replacement reserve. The condo fees should be high enough that when the HVAC bill comes due there is money in the bank, so that atthe very least you'd expect that the HVAC assessment to the condo owners would be far less than 100% of the cost.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Most condo associations don't carry insurance for things like HVAC, but if the association is run well they'll have a replacement reserve. The condo fees should be high enough that when the HVAC bill comes due there is money in the bank, so that atthe very least you'd expect that the HVAC assessment to the condo owners would be far less than 100% of the cost.

IMO, condo boards that set-aside too high a reserve for major repairs/replacements far down the road will find themselves tossed out by the condo owners.

Hypothetically, if the cost of the next HVAC renovation at Harbor Towers will be about $63 million (used that number, average of $100,000 a unit, for easy math) in 2035, and the condo board calculates that the average condo fee needs to include $2,500 a year for 30 years to fully fund the reserve just for this future expense, I suspect there would be a lot of unhappy condo owners, most of whom don't expect to be living there in 2035. Hence, the special assessment, which is what Harbor Towers resorted to when the $46 million HVAC bill was presented a few years back.

Condo fees that seem excessive can depreciate the value of a condo unit.

 

[jass]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I wonder how specific the harbor towers parking requirement is.

Could he purchase 600 spots by the bayside center, and say "there you go"?

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

IMO, condo boards that set-aside too high a reserve for major repairs/replacements far down the road will find themselves tossed out by the condo owners.

Hypothetically, if the cost of the next HVAC renovation at Harbor Towers will be about $63 million (used that number, average of $100,000 a unit, for easy math) in 2035, and the condo board calculates that the average condo fee needs to include $2,500 a year for 30 years to fully fund the reserve just for this future expense, I suspect there would be a lot of unhappy condo owners, most of whom don't expect to be living there in 2035. Hence, the special assessment, which is what Harbor Towers resorted to when the $46 million HVAC bill was presented a few years back.

Condo fees that seem excessive can depreciate the value of a condo unit.

True, but if you move into a building and the Condo Association has a $0 balance, you'll figure an upcoming assessment into your purchase price if your smart. But I get you're point - especially in a building with that many units, it may not be so obvious.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I wonder how specific the harbor towers parking requirement is.

Could he purchase 600 spots by the bayside center, and say "there you go"?

The garage was developed coincident with the Towers -- when the garage gets demolished, Boston loses an I M Pei building. I don't know whether the spaces are 'owned' by the owners of individual condo units or by the condo association in common. I suspect the latter. The fact that there was/is dedicated parking for these condo towers in downtown Boston was/is certainly a sales feature.

The proximity of being able to park your car (inside) near to where you live would not be met by Chiofaro telling them, 'hey, I found you 600 spaces at Bayside Expo'. (Their reply to that would be [expletive, expletive. expletive deleted].

Would they be satisfied if Chiofaro leased 600 spaces at Seaport Square and offered them 24/7 on-demand jitney service to and from the lot? Maybe. Course, I think those lots are controlled by Hynes now,and Chiofaro sued Hynes over State Street, so Chiofaro probably knows that Hynes would tell him [expletive deleted] if Chiofaro even approached him with a proposal.

I believe it was Chiofaro's partner Ted Oates who told the BRA, when Chiofaro was in discussions with the BRA about the 475 foot tower, that their plan would be to demolish half the garage, build half the underground garage, then demolish the other half, then build the remainder of the underground garage. (This scheme would have preserved the 600 or so spaces where they are.)

That scheme has apparently been abandoned as infeasible, or financially impractical. Thus, the new Chiofaro idea of building and then docking a floating garage somewhere near Harbor Towers.

But hey, Don being a smart businessman, should have had this all figured out before he paid $150+ million for the garage. He can fulminate all he wants about Menino, the BRA, the NIMBYS, all those who don't share his vision, etc., but none of that gets him past the Harbor Towers condo owners and the grip they have on his gonads.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I imagine those condo owners at Harbor Towers are racking up unwanted legal bills and consulting fees to deal with this situation, plus the issue has probably created tension/resentment among competing interests within the buildings. Unfortunately, that won't help create an environment for rational deliberation by Trustees or residents.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I imagine those condo owners at Harbor Towers are racking up unwanted legal bills and consulting fees to deal with this situation, plus the issue has probably created tension/resentment among competing interests within the buildings. Unfortunately, that won't help create an environment for rational deliberation by Trustees or residents.

True.
And there is no sign that Don was ever pro-active in the process, reaching out to them, and exploring what would satisfy them. So they are in reactive mode, and having to pay for it.

Also, note the language in the scoping document that I cited above, in which the BRA asks Don, 'BTW, where are you going to stage the construction of this project? Whose land do you intend to use?' Can he build a tower as envisioned if the Harbor Towers Condo Assn denies him entry onto their property for construction purposes? Probably not. His proposal is to increase the footprint of the existing garage a bit, so there is not a sq ft of his own land to spare.
__________________
Edited to add that I looked at a Google map, and whether the Condo Assn owns up to the garage property line depends on whether East India Row is entirely a public way or not.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The garage was developed coincident with the Towers -- when the garage gets demolished, Boston loses an I M Pei building. I don't know whether the spaces are 'owned' by the owners of individual condo units or by the condo association in common. I suspect the latter. The fact that there was/is dedicated parking for these condo towers in downtown Boston was/is certainly a sales feature.

The proximity of being able to park your car (inside) near to where you live would not be met by Chiofaro telling them, 'hey, I found you 600 spaces at Bayside Expo'. (Their reply to that would be [expletive, expletive. expletive deleted].

Finding 600 parking spots and relocating the heating system should not be a major issue. How many parking spots available at IP that he could surrender for the project? The floating barge makes sense. Their are many options, Harbor Towers residents will be annoyed but this issue would be resolved if the BRA and Chiofaro can compromise on the height of the project.


Would they be satisfied if Chiofaro leased 600 spaces at Seaport Square and offered them 24/7 on-demand jitney service to and from the lot? Maybe. Course, I think those lots are controlled by Hynes now,and Chiofaro sued Hynes over State Street, so Chiofaro probably knows that Hynes would tell him [expletive deleted] if Chiofaro even approached him with a proposal.

Finding 600 parking spots and relocating the heating system should not be a major issue. How many parking spots available at IP that he could surrender for the project? The floating barge makes sense. Their are many options, Harbor Towers residents will be annoyed but this issue would be resolved if the BRA and Chiofaro can compromise on the height of the project.

I think both parties should step back right now. Chiofaro, Palmeri and Harbor Tower residents really need to work on a design that would truly make this piece of the Greenway pristine. Does 200ft, 400ft, or 690ft do it? Who knows? The Mayor really needs to get involved at this point. This situation provides jobs, probably a better Greenway and a much better Boston.

It's very obvious that the only one that wants to make something happen here is Chiofaro. Maybe he has been too bullish on the site proposing a 770ft tower but I also believe 200ft is just a little small for city building. I think you need height in this area especially to take your eyes off the Harbor Towers which looks like we are back in the cold war era. What I have read, the Mayor should be in full force working with Chiofaro and the Harbor Tower Residents. All I have read is the naysayers in every news article, Shadows will ruin the Greenway, Harbor Tower residents reject tower because it will block their views, The BRA says height won't work in this area. The Mayor claims he has a better shot of building this in 90 degree day in January. than. Bottom line: why not work with the developer he has already agreed to come down in height? So in my opinion the BRA, Harbor Tower residents and the Mayor would rather a garage than see Chiofaro succeed in anything to help the Greenway grow.

Also fuck Hynes. That idiot is going to cost the taxpayers a fortune for the bullshit they tried to pull at Filenes. At this point the city has no other options but to bailout this project. Chiofaro should just drive all the cars into the hole in downtown let Hynes valet.

 

[statler]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Maybe they can agree to build a new garage on that blight of space with the pool.

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Does anyone know if the Harbor Towers have direct access to the garage (i.e., is there an underground passageway)?

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Does anyone know if the Harbor Towers have direct access to the garage (i.e., is there an underground passageway)?

They have their own dedicated parking entrance, off East India Row. I kind of doubt there is an underground passage, as I believe the garage itself is entirely above ground. I don't believe there is an underground passage between the two towers either.
____________________________

As for parking spaces at IP, may be some available since his biggest tenant is headed over to the Pru later this year, leaving 450,000 sq ft vacant, IIRC. Don't think he has found another tenant, and that much vacant space over the long-term might tip IP into the red big-time. Another rewind of the Perils of Don and bankruptcy court?.

 

[greenwayguy1982]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Rifleman, you wrote : "Finding 600 parking spots and relocating the heating system should not be a major issue."

OK, so why hasn't it happened yet, and Chiofaro has owned the garage going on three years now? If it's so easy maybe you could volunteer your services to Chiofaro's office. If this project is truly so good for the Greenway and the city, how come Chiofaro is the only one who seems to think so? And how come he hasn't been able to make a deal with anyone on any of the issues that have been floating (no pun intended) out there for years now?

And hey, you might not like Hynes, but at least he's actually built something in the city in this millennium....