[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown
- Status
greenwayguy1982
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2010
- Messages
- 134
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
From this morning's Herald:
New roadblock for Don Chiofaro
City says easements delay tower plan till 2069
By Thomas Grillo
Thursday, August 12, 2010 - Added 6 hours ago
The battle between the Boston Redevelopment Authority and the developer of two waterfront skyscrapers escalated this week with the city saying the project can?t be built until 2069.
?There are numerous long-term legal obligations which the BRA asked the proponent to address,? said BRA spokeswoman Susan Elsbree. ?Until there is a solid legal plan for . . . third party property rights, no redevelopment project may move forward.?
The comments mark the latest Menino administration attack against Don Chiofaro?s plan to replace the Harbor Garage with a $1 billion project including a 40-story office tower and a 59-story condo and hotel building along the Greenway near the New England Aquarium.
The city has issued guidelines that limit the project?s height to 200 feet, but Chiofaro wants to build at more than twice the size.
BRA director John Palmieri said a review of the proposal revealed that the adjacent Harbor Towers has an HVAC (heating, ventilating and air conditioning) easement in the Harbor Garage for another 59 years that prohibits construction of the project.
Chiofaro acknowledged the easement exists but said that his company has the right to move the systems at any time as long as it remains in operation.
?Why is the BRA going out of their way taking positions with no legal or logical basis?? Chiofaro said. ?The city wants to put up false processes, misinformation. Palmieri should be ashamed of himself. It?s a misuse of his authority.?
Palmieri declined to comment.
....so again, Rifleman, if, as you say, "relocating the heating system should not be a major issue," and if, as Chiofaro claims, he can do it at any time, then why hasn't it happened yet?
From this morning's Herald:
New roadblock for Don Chiofaro
City says easements delay tower plan till 2069
By Thomas Grillo
Thursday, August 12, 2010 - Added 6 hours ago
The battle between the Boston Redevelopment Authority and the developer of two waterfront skyscrapers escalated this week with the city saying the project can?t be built until 2069.
?There are numerous long-term legal obligations which the BRA asked the proponent to address,? said BRA spokeswoman Susan Elsbree. ?Until there is a solid legal plan for . . . third party property rights, no redevelopment project may move forward.?
The comments mark the latest Menino administration attack against Don Chiofaro?s plan to replace the Harbor Garage with a $1 billion project including a 40-story office tower and a 59-story condo and hotel building along the Greenway near the New England Aquarium.
The city has issued guidelines that limit the project?s height to 200 feet, but Chiofaro wants to build at more than twice the size.
BRA director John Palmieri said a review of the proposal revealed that the adjacent Harbor Towers has an HVAC (heating, ventilating and air conditioning) easement in the Harbor Garage for another 59 years that prohibits construction of the project.
Chiofaro acknowledged the easement exists but said that his company has the right to move the systems at any time as long as it remains in operation.
?Why is the BRA going out of their way taking positions with no legal or logical basis?? Chiofaro said. ?The city wants to put up false processes, misinformation. Palmieri should be ashamed of himself. It?s a misuse of his authority.?
Palmieri declined to comment.
....so again, Rifleman, if, as you say, "relocating the heating system should not be a major issue," and if, as Chiofaro claims, he can do it at any time, then why hasn't it happened yet?
stellarfun
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 5,690
- Reaction score
- 1,506
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
hhmmmmm, does Grillo, or the BRA, read this board?
Jass, I am pretty sure that a portion of the monthly condo fee pays for the maintenance and upkeep of the 600 spaces. I suspect, though, nothing is being paid into a reserve to replace the garage at the end of its useful life.
If Chiofaro were to build a new garage, he could kick out the condo owners in 25 years or so, when their vested 'right' to those spaces expires.
______________________________________
The HVAC is the lesser of the two issues. The amount of space needed to provide a new HVAC hub for the Towers is not large, and, in theory, could be negotiated pretty readily. Don's larger 'problem', IMO, is the parking spaces.
What is telling about the Herald article though, is that Don over the past 13 months has apparently not taken a single step toward addressing the issues of what to do about the HVAC, or the parking. What he has done is launch a major p. r. campaign to drum up public support for one or another of his conceptual renderings, gotten into a rather nasty squabble with the mayor, and offered $50 million to the city if the city would only approve his design.
But all of the above is little more than a pirouetting charade in the absence of him taking any substantive action to address the property rights that the condo owners have in his garage.
hhmmmmm, does Grillo, or the BRA, read this board?
Jass, I am pretty sure that a portion of the monthly condo fee pays for the maintenance and upkeep of the 600 spaces. I suspect, though, nothing is being paid into a reserve to replace the garage at the end of its useful life.
If Chiofaro were to build a new garage, he could kick out the condo owners in 25 years or so, when their vested 'right' to those spaces expires.
______________________________________
The HVAC is the lesser of the two issues. The amount of space needed to provide a new HVAC hub for the Towers is not large, and, in theory, could be negotiated pretty readily. Don's larger 'problem', IMO, is the parking spaces.
What is telling about the Herald article though, is that Don over the past 13 months has apparently not taken a single step toward addressing the issues of what to do about the HVAC, or the parking. What he has done is launch a major p. r. campaign to drum up public support for one or another of his conceptual renderings, gotten into a rather nasty squabble with the mayor, and offered $50 million to the city if the city would only approve his design.
But all of the above is little more than a pirouetting charade in the absence of him taking any substantive action to address the property rights that the condo owners have in his garage.
Shepard
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 3,518
- Reaction score
- 66
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
I've said before that Don needs to move on - there are better places to build for now, and I think that if he's serious about building he could be seeing a much easier time of it. But in getting him to move on, the city had better not spite its face by ensuring that the garage remains until 2069. The Boston REdevelopment Authority should be taking steps to ensure the REdevelopment of this underused Greenway-facing parcel, even if Don's proposal cannot and will not work, and even if a 200' is all that is eventually going to be allowed.
I've said before that Don needs to move on - there are better places to build for now, and I think that if he's serious about building he could be seeing a much easier time of it. But in getting him to move on, the city had better not spite its face by ensuring that the garage remains until 2069. The Boston REdevelopment Authority should be taking steps to ensure the REdevelopment of this underused Greenway-facing parcel, even if Don's proposal cannot and will not work, and even if a 200' is all that is eventually going to be allowed.
TheRifleman
Banned
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2008
- Messages
- 4,431
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Why would a developer relocate the heating system when the BRA won't let him build past 200ft? The project is dead until the Mayor actually okay's more height for Chiofaro to actually considering building. This guy is not going to negotiate with Harbor Towers until he has a concrete plan for the project. Without more height the project does not exist.
Relocating the heating system is not a problem and I'm sure Chiofaro/Pru would take 100% responsibility for this or they would be in serious legal trouble. Parking would be resolved it might cost him some money but they would figure something out. These are not the issues?? the issue is the HEIGHT.
I think Palmeri is stepping over his boundaries right now. It is very clear that the BRA is not helping create jobs and creating a better city. The BRA should not be taking sides no matter what happens in a development. They should be Neutral looking for common ground with both sides. It?s very obvious that the Mayor and the BRA are against Chiofaro. It?s like the BRA is anti development. We are talking about a redeveloping the one of the worst garages in the city.
If I actually lived at Harbor Towers I would definitely be skeptical of the project and I would be fully involved and nag the shit out of Chiofaro development team. But overall I would strongly want the garage completely out. The site of the garage is brutal. It will be the only way to make that part of the Greenway more vibrant.
I actually might move onto another project. So this is my feelings Greenway Guy and Stellarfun. I know you both have your valid points.
Why would a developer relocate the heating system when the BRA won't let him build past 200ft? The project is dead until the Mayor actually okay's more height for Chiofaro to actually considering building. This guy is not going to negotiate with Harbor Towers until he has a concrete plan for the project. Without more height the project does not exist.
Relocating the heating system is not a problem and I'm sure Chiofaro/Pru would take 100% responsibility for this or they would be in serious legal trouble. Parking would be resolved it might cost him some money but they would figure something out. These are not the issues?? the issue is the HEIGHT.
I think Palmeri is stepping over his boundaries right now. It is very clear that the BRA is not helping create jobs and creating a better city. The BRA should not be taking sides no matter what happens in a development. They should be Neutral looking for common ground with both sides. It?s very obvious that the Mayor and the BRA are against Chiofaro. It?s like the BRA is anti development. We are talking about a redeveloping the one of the worst garages in the city.
If I actually lived at Harbor Towers I would definitely be skeptical of the project and I would be fully involved and nag the shit out of Chiofaro development team. But overall I would strongly want the garage completely out. The site of the garage is brutal. It will be the only way to make that part of the Greenway more vibrant.
I actually might move onto another project. So this is my feelings Greenway Guy and Stellarfun. I know you both have your valid points.
AmericanFolkLegend
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2009
- Messages
- 2,212
- Reaction score
- 248
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
I think I just . . . um . . . yes, I just had an epiphany. I've never seen Chiofaro and Rifleman in the same room before!
Rifleman is Chiofaro. Chiofaro is Rifleman!!
Finkle is Einhorn. Einhorn is Finkle!!
I think I just . . . um . . . yes, I just had an epiphany. I've never seen Chiofaro and Rifleman in the same room before!
Rifleman is Chiofaro. Chiofaro is Rifleman!!
Finkle is Einhorn. Einhorn is Finkle!!
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Someone should declare this project DEAD so everyone can move on.
Chiofaro never proposed a stellar project for Bostonians to get excited about.
Palmieri is under the Mayor's thumb, and the Mayor has made this issue personal.
Harbor Tower residents are using garage rights (and maybe air rights?) to protect panoramic views. They are not worried about parking or HVAC, so only a complete buyout of the towers would probably suffice. Maybe that will happen in the future, but Chiofaro isn't the guy.
You can tell from Grillo's article, reading Palmieri's disdain, this is so D E A D.
Someone should declare this project DEAD so everyone can move on.
Chiofaro never proposed a stellar project for Bostonians to get excited about.
Palmieri is under the Mayor's thumb, and the Mayor has made this issue personal.
Harbor Tower residents are using garage rights (and maybe air rights?) to protect panoramic views. They are not worried about parking or HVAC, so only a complete buyout of the towers would probably suffice. Maybe that will happen in the future, but Chiofaro isn't the guy.
You can tell from Grillo's article, reading Palmieri's disdain, this is so D E A D.
GW2500
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2008
- Messages
- 1,087
- Reaction score
- 117
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
I'm sorry , but what redevelopment agency says you can't build here for 59 years? Sure those issues need to be dealt with, but to say that is so amateur and just shows it's an org that needs a serious retooling.
I'm sorry , but what redevelopment agency says you can't build here for 59 years? Sure those issues need to be dealt with, but to say that is so amateur and just shows it's an org that needs a serious retooling.
stellarfun
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 5,690
- Reaction score
- 1,506
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
a.) demonstrate that he had discussed and reached agreement with those property owners, including the City of Boston, whose land he intended to occupy and use during construction; and,
b.) address how he would resolve the existing and future property interests that certain parties (the condo owners, but there may be others) have in the garage.
Why should the BRA or any entity go through a difficult and expensive process on a proposal where the proponent (in this case Chiofaro) can't do
jacksh*t about developing it until he has worked out a.) and b.)? Why should the Harbor Towers condo association have to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars during a review process to preserve their property 'rights' in the garage? Any indication that Don has offered to pony up and pay some of their costs?
IMO, and it is only opinion, Chiofaro was/is hoping to get a building of a certain size and mass approved and permitted, and then sell the garage and the approvals to another developer.
I have a friend whose property abutted a parcel that a major developer wanted to build on. They wanted to build to the property line. They couldn't do that without getting his okay that they could use his land to stage their construction, and actually install shoring and pilings on his land, and after the building was built, he grant them a permanent easement on his property for the purpose of repairing or accessing the building facade. In return, they made very substantial improvements to his property, and gave him two free parking spaces in their indoor garage for the entire period he lived next to their building.
But before they finished and sought approval of the design, they had the okay from him on this entry, access, and taking agreement.
The BRA didn't say that Chiofaro couldn't build there for 59 years. This is all about the provisions in the BRA scoping document that required him to submit, along with his wind studies, his shadow studies, his traffic plan, where he intended to put his loading docks, garage entrances, etc etc etc that he
a.) demonstrate that he had discussed and reached agreement with those property owners, including the City of Boston, whose land he intended to occupy and use during construction; and,
b.) address how he would resolve the existing and future property interests that certain parties (the condo owners, but there may be others) have in the garage.
Why should the BRA or any entity go through a difficult and expensive process on a proposal where the proponent (in this case Chiofaro) can't do
jacksh*t about developing it until he has worked out a.) and b.)? Why should the Harbor Towers condo association have to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars during a review process to preserve their property 'rights' in the garage? Any indication that Don has offered to pony up and pay some of their costs?
IMO, and it is only opinion, Chiofaro was/is hoping to get a building of a certain size and mass approved and permitted, and then sell the garage and the approvals to another developer.
I have a friend whose property abutted a parcel that a major developer wanted to build on. They wanted to build to the property line. They couldn't do that without getting his okay that they could use his land to stage their construction, and actually install shoring and pilings on his land, and after the building was built, he grant them a permanent easement on his property for the purpose of repairing or accessing the building facade. In return, they made very substantial improvements to his property, and gave him two free parking spaces in their indoor garage for the entire period he lived next to their building.
But before they finished and sought approval of the design, they had the okay from him on this entry, access, and taking agreement.
KentXie
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2006
- Messages
- 4,192
- Reaction score
- 758
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Chiofaro, this is where you cut the nose to spite the face. Leave the ugly parking lot as it is and have it as an eyesore until 2069. By then the jokers from the BRA will be dead (you'll be too but hopefully someone will come along and take over) and then the future Bostonians will be in shocked at how the Boston officials of the early 2000 would let such an eyesore stand for so long.
Chiofaro, this is where you cut the nose to spite the face. Leave the ugly parking lot as it is and have it as an eyesore until 2069. By then the jokers from the BRA will be dead (you'll be too but hopefully someone will come along and take over) and then the future Bostonians will be in shocked at how the Boston officials of the early 2000 would let such an eyesore stand for so long.
pelhamhall
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2008
- Messages
- 855
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Please, please, please... this garage needs a big, brightly-lit, brass-lettered sign:
"The Thomas M. Menino Legacy Garage"
I know I've proposed this before, but it would be one of the greatest things ever to happen. It would actually go from an eyesore to a fun, folksy eyesore.
Please, please, please... this garage needs a big, brightly-lit, brass-lettered sign:
"The Thomas M. Menino Legacy Garage"
I know I've proposed this before, but it would be one of the greatest things ever to happen. It would actually go from an eyesore to a fun, folksy eyesore.
stellarfun
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 5,690
- Reaction score
- 1,506
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Chiofaro's timeline is really 2013. That's when I believe he has to make a big balloon payment on the $85 million loan he got from the Hartford Investment Management Co. (Five year note secured over two years ago.)
palindrome
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2006
- Messages
- 2,277
- Reaction score
- 125
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Beton Brut
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2006
- Messages
- 4,382
- Reaction score
- 336
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Don Chiofaro: Poll shows support for towers
By Thomas Grillo
Tuesday, August 17, 2010
A poll commissioned by the developer of two controversial towers on the city?s waterfront shows a majority of Bostonians favor the $1 billion proposal.
In a survey of 300 voters in Boston, 51 percent of respondents voiced support for the project while 33 percent were opposed.
The Chiofaro Co. has filed plans with the city to replace the Harbor Garage with two skyscrapers up to 59 stories high at the water?s edge along the Greenway.
But the plan faces stiff opposition from Mayor Thomas M. Menino, who will ask the city?s planning office tonight to adopt new rules that limit the height to 200 feet, or about 20 stories. The poll question referred to the tallest building at 40 stories, a sign that Chiofaro has downsized the project.
?This poll confirms what we have believed for a long time - that the idea of redeveloping the Harbor Garage is one that almost everybody universally accepts as a good idea,? said Don Chiofaro.
But Menino and some tenants of the nearby Harbor Towers dismissed the poll.
?This is just another high-priced public relations tactic being used by Prudential Real Estate to advance their own agenda,? said Dot Joyce, the mayor?s spokeswoman, in a statement referring to Chiofaro?s partner in the project.
In an e-mail, Thomas Palmer, spokesman for some Harbor Towers residents, called the poll ?flawed, biased, meaningless and misleading.?
?If Mr. Chiofaro wants to know how the community feels about his project, he should simply read the over 200 letters of opposition from local residents, elected officials, community organizations, and public agencies that were sent in response to his project.?
Sandra Waddock, a Boston College ethics professor, questioned the poll?s validity.
?There?s certainly an appearance of conflict of interest, because he?s paying for the survey,? she said.
Don Chiofaro: Poll shows support for towers
By Thomas Grillo
Tuesday, August 17, 2010
A poll commissioned by the developer of two controversial towers on the city?s waterfront shows a majority of Bostonians favor the $1 billion proposal.
In a survey of 300 voters in Boston, 51 percent of respondents voiced support for the project while 33 percent were opposed.
The Chiofaro Co. has filed plans with the city to replace the Harbor Garage with two skyscrapers up to 59 stories high at the water?s edge along the Greenway.
But the plan faces stiff opposition from Mayor Thomas M. Menino, who will ask the city?s planning office tonight to adopt new rules that limit the height to 200 feet, or about 20 stories. The poll question referred to the tallest building at 40 stories, a sign that Chiofaro has downsized the project.
?This poll confirms what we have believed for a long time - that the idea of redeveloping the Harbor Garage is one that almost everybody universally accepts as a good idea,? said Don Chiofaro.
But Menino and some tenants of the nearby Harbor Towers dismissed the poll.
?This is just another high-priced public relations tactic being used by Prudential Real Estate to advance their own agenda,? said Dot Joyce, the mayor?s spokeswoman, in a statement referring to Chiofaro?s partner in the project.
In an e-mail, Thomas Palmer, spokesman for some Harbor Towers residents, called the poll ?flawed, biased, meaningless and misleading.?
?If Mr. Chiofaro wants to know how the community feels about his project, he should simply read the over 200 letters of opposition from local residents, elected officials, community organizations, and public agencies that were sent in response to his project.?
Sandra Waddock, a Boston College ethics professor, questioned the poll?s validity.
?There?s certainly an appearance of conflict of interest, because he?s paying for the survey,? she said.
AmericanFolkLegend
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2009
- Messages
- 2,212
- Reaction score
- 248
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
I've noticed the City has sort of marginalized Chiofaro in alot of comments lately by going after Prudential instead. Good strategy - it pisses off Chiofaro and embarasses the money partner.
I've noticed the City has sort of marginalized Chiofaro in alot of comments lately by going after Prudential instead. Good strategy - it pisses off Chiofaro and embarasses the money partner.
stellarfun
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 5,690
- Reaction score
- 1,506
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
^^^ The poll is not yet published on his project website, so one can't read the question(s) or the methodology. (I have my doubts whether it will ever appear. See next paragraph.)
He has yet to post on the harboprgarageproject website the supposedly extensive environmental assessment that he sent the City several months back.
The website still has competing renderings of the project, the initial and the revised.
http://harborgarageproject.com/id/1/Home.html
And someone is being either lazy or cheap, --the website still carries a 2009 copyright date.
^^^ The poll is not yet published on his project website, so one can't read the question(s) or the methodology. (I have my doubts whether it will ever appear. See next paragraph.)
He has yet to post on the harboprgarageproject website the supposedly extensive environmental assessment that he sent the City several months back.
The website still has competing renderings of the project, the initial and the revised.
http://harborgarageproject.com/id/1/Home.html
And someone is being either lazy or cheap, --the website still carries a 2009 copyright date.
Bos77
Active Member
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 482
- Reaction score
- 295
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
I'm no fan of Chiofaro, but the true conflict of interest is how the city can keep raising my taxes and then flight EVERY development opportunity when Tommy dosn't get his d!ck sucked the right way. New money that could help restore services cut to 650,000+ people, versus the alleged 200 who might have their lives diminished by 5 minutes of shadow!?! And there is SO much development happening these days... we can afford to be this hostile and choosey, right?
I'm enjoying the fight, but we all know how it will end..
I'm no fan of Chiofaro, but the true conflict of interest is how the city can keep raising my taxes and then flight EVERY development opportunity when Tommy dosn't get his d!ck sucked the right way. New money that could help restore services cut to 650,000+ people, versus the alleged 200 who might have their lives diminished by 5 minutes of shadow!?! And there is SO much development happening these days... we can afford to be this hostile and choosey, right?
I'm enjoying the fight, but we all know how it will end..
stellarfun
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 5,690
- Reaction score
- 1,506
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
The owner of record for IP is Prudential. The assessment for IP has been cut by $85 million from the 2009 value. Don't know whether they have filed for a further abatement of that amount -- all that space being emptied.
TheRifleman
Banned
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2008
- Messages
- 4,431
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
The real question is why is Menino so in a rush to adopt new rules for the Greenway?
"But the plan faces stiff opposition from Mayor Thomas M. Menino, who will ask the city?s planning office tonight to adopt new rules that limit the height to 200 feet, or about 20 stories. The poll question referred to the tallest building at 40 stories, a sign that Chiofaro has downsized the project."
The real question is why is Menino so in a rush to adopt new rules for the Greenway?
"But the plan faces stiff opposition from Mayor Thomas M. Menino, who will ask the city?s planning office tonight to adopt new rules that limit the height to 200 feet, or about 20 stories. The poll question referred to the tallest building at 40 stories, a sign that Chiofaro has downsized the project."
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Just trying to get some of the players straight.
Thomas O'Brien resigned as BRA Director, reportedly at Menino's request under a cloud of controversy. He is now representing "the garage owners" which I would assume include Chiofaro.
Tom Palmer left the Boston Globe as its Real Estate reporter and ran a blog about Boston Development for McDermott Ventures, a consulting firm listing Fan Pier and Russia Wharf as clients. (http://www.dankennedy.net/tag/tom-palmer/).
Just trying to get some of the players straight.
Thomas O'Brien resigned as BRA Director, reportedly at Menino's request under a cloud of controversy. He is now representing "the garage owners" which I would assume include Chiofaro.
Tom Palmer left the Boston Globe as its Real Estate reporter and ran a blog about Boston Development for McDermott Ventures, a consulting firm listing Fan Pier and Russia Wharf as clients. (http://www.dankennedy.net/tag/tom-palmer/).
- Status