[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
How will the city collect more tax revenue by giving away $46 million? By adding jobs?
From Shirley Kressel's article in the South End News:
"Most astounding, they insisted that this subsidy was essential to create jobs for Boston residents, when the fact is that Liberty created four times as many jobs annually in the past six years without any subsidy at all and expected to keep growing by at least that rate in the future. Further, only 20 percent of Liberty?s jobs are, and likely will be, held by Bostonians. We?re talking about a $38.5 million dollar subsidy for 30 state-resident jobs, including only six Boston-resident jobs, annually for 20 years-not only a trivial number, a hiccup in LM?s 2,500-person work force in the city, but more important-jobs that would obviously be created without any public help at all. "
How will the city collect more tax revenue by giving away $46 million? By adding jobs?
From Shirley Kressel's article in the South End News:
"Most astounding, they insisted that this subsidy was essential to create jobs for Boston residents, when the fact is that Liberty created four times as many jobs annually in the past six years without any subsidy at all and expected to keep growing by at least that rate in the future. Further, only 20 percent of Liberty?s jobs are, and likely will be, held by Bostonians. We?re talking about a $38.5 million dollar subsidy for 30 state-resident jobs, including only six Boston-resident jobs, annually for 20 years-not only a trivial number, a hiccup in LM?s 2,500-person work force in the city, but more important-jobs that would obviously be created without any public help at all. "
greenwayguy1982
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Eh, huff and puff all you want, but the bottom line is that the project that dutifully followed the Article 80 process, has the money, and has the occupant already lined up is in construction right now, and the project whose developer either refuses to or can't follow the rules, doesn't have the money, and not only doesn't have an occupant - also has a gaping hole in his existing building - isn't getting built now or in the forseeable future and probably never will get built. I just don't see why everyone on this board rails wildly against the "process" but seems to ignore the basic facts about the Harbor Garage proposal and its proponent. That's all.
I also suggest that everyone read up on how a TIF works before you make it sound like the city is writing Liberty Mutual a $46 million check...
And joebos, IMHO anyone who cites Shirley Kressel as a source should get a chuckle - ask anyone in the real estate/planning/architecture industry in Boston about her. I bet even Rifleman would agree on that count considering the strong stance she took against the Harbor Garage project....
Eh, huff and puff all you want, but the bottom line is that the project that dutifully followed the Article 80 process, has the money, and has the occupant already lined up is in construction right now, and the project whose developer either refuses to or can't follow the rules, doesn't have the money, and not only doesn't have an occupant - also has a gaping hole in his existing building - isn't getting built now or in the forseeable future and probably never will get built. I just don't see why everyone on this board rails wildly against the "process" but seems to ignore the basic facts about the Harbor Garage proposal and its proponent. That's all.
I also suggest that everyone read up on how a TIF works before you make it sound like the city is writing Liberty Mutual a $46 million check...
And joebos, IMHO anyone who cites Shirley Kressel as a source should get a chuckle - ask anyone in the real estate/planning/architecture industry in Boston about her. I bet even Rifleman would agree on that count considering the strong stance she took against the Harbor Garage project....
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
On a different note.
The City knew about CAT/Tunnel & Greenway for 20 years. They had at least 10 to plan and rezone the Downtown Waterfront so we wouldn't be having this debate.
Why doesn't the underlying zoning reflect a broad set of goals that would enable property owners and developers to move forward as of right while achieving architectural and planning objectives?
I don't get why the BRA is talking about this particular site as if they are waiting for a good proposal to come along. They should have already planned the entire district and rezoned accordingly to everyone's benefit.
If they had done that this wouldn't be a war of personalities, and Harbor Towers residents wouldn't be driving the discussion.
On a different note.
The City knew about CAT/Tunnel & Greenway for 20 years. They had at least 10 to plan and rezone the Downtown Waterfront so we wouldn't be having this debate.
Why doesn't the underlying zoning reflect a broad set of goals that would enable property owners and developers to move forward as of right while achieving architectural and planning objectives?
I don't get why the BRA is talking about this particular site as if they are waiting for a good proposal to come along. They should have already planned the entire district and rezoned accordingly to everyone's benefit.
If they had done that this wouldn't be a war of personalities, and Harbor Towers residents wouldn't be driving the discussion.
greenwayguy1982
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Sicilian,
You're right - they should have done just that - and they did. The zoning along the Harbor side of the Greenway dates to 1991, the year the CA/T project started. And it's 155 feet. I still don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like it, that's one thing, but don't say that the city/BRA failed to realize the impact that the CA/T project would have when they actually put in place new zoning - zoning that took several years of public process to develop, if I recall correctly - the same year that the project started. Why toss out years of planning and foresight just because one person with a big ego comes along with a harebrained idea and (so it appears) no money to do anything other than pay PR people?
Sicilian,
You're right - they should have done just that - and they did. The zoning along the Harbor side of the Greenway dates to 1991, the year the CA/T project started. And it's 155 feet. I still don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like it, that's one thing, but don't say that the city/BRA failed to realize the impact that the CA/T project would have when they actually put in place new zoning - zoning that took several years of public process to develop, if I recall correctly - the same year that the project started. Why toss out years of planning and foresight just because one person with a big ego comes along with a harebrained idea and (so it appears) no money to do anything other than pay PR people?
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
^greenway
I admittedly am unfamiliar with the "plan" you cite. Perhaps you can link to it, if you have not done so already. I'm not talking about zoning, I'm talking about a plan with land use objectives that make sense for the area to maximize its potential.
You state, "And it's 155 feet."
Height is only one component of zoning plan based on master planning. It determines appropriate land use and FAR (floor area ratio). The enactment of a zoning plan for the Waterfront would have had to have buy-in of property owners if their parcels were to be rezoned. That's how a planning agency can dictate new land uses.
I've really heard nothing about high-level planning goals for the Waterfront near the aquarium. The majority of your points have to do with height.
I have noted before that the BRA under the Menino administration drafted and filed a Downtown Municipal Harbor Plan with the State for the area of the Greenway south of Rowes Wharf, including Independence Wharf, Russia Wharf and through the USPS property. That process seemed to dovetail with goals of the property owners along the water's edge.
Nothing stands in the way of the BRA filing a Municipal Harbor Plan for the Waterfront north of this area, although buy-in of property owners would probably be a prerequisite to avoid court battles. With adequate planning, the BRA could probably enact a zoning amendment against the wishes of property owners, and see it through in court. I don't see that happening but its probably an option.
^greenway
I admittedly am unfamiliar with the "plan" you cite. Perhaps you can link to it, if you have not done so already. I'm not talking about zoning, I'm talking about a plan with land use objectives that make sense for the area to maximize its potential.
You state, "And it's 155 feet."
Height is only one component of zoning plan based on master planning. It determines appropriate land use and FAR (floor area ratio). The enactment of a zoning plan for the Waterfront would have had to have buy-in of property owners if their parcels were to be rezoned. That's how a planning agency can dictate new land uses.
I've really heard nothing about high-level planning goals for the Waterfront near the aquarium. The majority of your points have to do with height.
I have noted before that the BRA under the Menino administration drafted and filed a Downtown Municipal Harbor Plan with the State for the area of the Greenway south of Rowes Wharf, including Independence Wharf, Russia Wharf and through the USPS property. That process seemed to dovetail with goals of the property owners along the water's edge.
Nothing stands in the way of the BRA filing a Municipal Harbor Plan for the Waterfront north of this area, although buy-in of property owners would probably be a prerequisite to avoid court battles. With adequate planning, the BRA could probably enact a zoning amendment against the wishes of property owners, and see it through in court. I don't see that happening but its probably an option.
greenwayguy1982
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
^
It's called the Harborpark Plan, ca. 1990 - I don't have a link to it unfortunately but it was, if memory serves, very much a multi-faceted master plan such as the type for which you advocate, and it ultimately formed the basis for the 1991 Harborpark zoning and the Downtown Waterfront MHP.
Not sure why the BRA would do an MHP amendment for the whole Downtown Waterfront just for the convenience of one developer who doesn't have the money to build anything of substance, refuses to abide by the established development review process, and has bigger problems to worry about (i.e. the vacant Ropes & Gray space in IP).
^
It's called the Harborpark Plan, ca. 1990 - I don't have a link to it unfortunately but it was, if memory serves, very much a multi-faceted master plan such as the type for which you advocate, and it ultimately formed the basis for the 1991 Harborpark zoning and the Downtown Waterfront MHP.
Not sure why the BRA would do an MHP amendment for the whole Downtown Waterfront just for the convenience of one developer who doesn't have the money to build anything of substance, refuses to abide by the established development review process, and has bigger problems to worry about (i.e. the vacant Ropes & Gray space in IP).
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
^Greenway
I can't find the Harborpark plan available for download or even mentioned at all on the BRA's Downtown planning initiatives page (here), probably because it was developed before the BRA website and may not exist in digital form. But it's not even referenced once in a Google search and you don't have a printed reference -- and you're our leading advocate on the subject. I'm sure it's available somewhere in the BRA archives, but clearly not front and center in everyone's mind.
That leaves open the possibility that a new Master Plan and Municipal Harbor Plan could be initiated. Not for Chiofaro per se, but A) because it may not be a bad idea and B) as a response to political pressures for wholesale zoning changes along the Greenway.
I feel your pain regarding the short life of Master Plans, knowing the massive amount of work and rapidly fading history of the South Boston Seaport Public Realm Plan -- a Master Plan that was barely ever mentioned by BRA representatives at presentations just a few years after its publication. This year all we heard about is the Innovation District, which in concept supports the early phasing of office space and rental housing (coincidentally as the economic climate moves toward office space and rental housing). Thankfully for those of us who expect better, the SB-SPRP is still available for download.
^Greenway
I can't find the Harborpark plan available for download or even mentioned at all on the BRA's Downtown planning initiatives page (here), probably because it was developed before the BRA website and may not exist in digital form. But it's not even referenced once in a Google search and you don't have a printed reference -- and you're our leading advocate on the subject. I'm sure it's available somewhere in the BRA archives, but clearly not front and center in everyone's mind.
That leaves open the possibility that a new Master Plan and Municipal Harbor Plan could be initiated. Not for Chiofaro per se, but A) because it may not be a bad idea and B) as a response to political pressures for wholesale zoning changes along the Greenway.
I feel your pain regarding the short life of Master Plans, knowing the massive amount of work and rapidly fading history of the South Boston Seaport Public Realm Plan -- a Master Plan that was barely ever mentioned by BRA representatives at presentations just a few years after its publication. This year all we heard about is the Innovation District, which in concept supports the early phasing of office space and rental housing (coincidentally as the economic climate moves toward office space and rental housing). Thankfully for those of us who expect better, the SB-SPRP is still available for download.
stellarfun
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Chiofaro has very little of his own money in the garage.
When Prudential bailed out Chiofaro at IP, the result was that Chiofaro lost much of his ownership stake in IP, but he was allowed to keep managing the buildings.
The purchase of the garage was largely financed through a five year note from the Hartford Investment Management Co. That note comes due, with a big balloon payment, in a couple of years. (The remainder of the garage purchase was financed by Prudential.)
If Chiofaro hadn't filed for bankruptcy, he might now have enough of an equity ownership stake in IP to help finance some of the Arch project, but the bankruptcy filing ended that.
If I were to bet, I'd say the odds favor he can't re-finance the five year note unless he gets the city and the residents of Harbor Towers to agree on what his project will be. And from all that I can see, he has done ZERO these past three or four years in trying to get the Harbor Towers condo owners to agree to anything he proposes. And they hold the cards. He can't do sh*t without their okay.
Chiofaro has very little of his own money in the garage.
When Prudential bailed out Chiofaro at IP, the result was that Chiofaro lost much of his ownership stake in IP, but he was allowed to keep managing the buildings.
The purchase of the garage was largely financed through a five year note from the Hartford Investment Management Co. That note comes due, with a big balloon payment, in a couple of years. (The remainder of the garage purchase was financed by Prudential.)
If Chiofaro hadn't filed for bankruptcy, he might now have enough of an equity ownership stake in IP to help finance some of the Arch project, but the bankruptcy filing ended that.
If I were to bet, I'd say the odds favor he can't re-finance the five year note unless he gets the city and the residents of Harbor Towers to agree on what his project will be. And from all that I can see, he has done ZERO these past three or four years in trying to get the Harbor Towers condo owners to agree to anything he proposes. And they hold the cards. He can't do sh*t without their okay.
TheRifleman
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Bottom line their is no reason to give a favorable tax break to a billion dollar company and not another. Especially when downtown has 20% vacancy rate. If private companies want to expand they can either build with their own money or rent from another landlord. If things are so great in the city then why is the Mayor asking for the schools and hospitals to start paying into the city coffers to help fund the city? (thats an extra tax) Why is the Mayor telling downtown business's to help the city provide BID. So as a small business owner in which I'm paying my fair share of taxes and now I have to contribute to BID then the city & state give additional tax breaks to a billion dollar insurance company to expand in the best part of the city. I would rather live in a cardboard box than give these fucking assholes a tax break.
I think you might want to rethink TIF. Because in reality all TIF means is the city and state officials helped out a campaign donor which helped the democrats buy more votes in NOV elections by letting the UNIONS build with taxpayers money. And in the end the only people that end up with the wealth is LIBERTY MUTUAL Investors.
Those are facts.
Your dreaming. Do you think a developer would buy a parcel without knowing legally what he needs to do. The biggest issue to this development is with the mayor on the height. After that Chiofaro is responsible for find parking spots that are accessible. If I was him I would actually do everything legally to screw everybody since nobody is working with him to help move the project forward. The BRA is telling the public that this sight does not need to be rushed.
The way I look at the city, state and federal officials is that they fuck up everything they touch. When a private developer comes along with private investors that is the only time something is usually done right. Smart money.
I don't know why he is willing to give the city 50 Million dollars. I wouldn't give these assholes 50cents.
Bottom line their is no reason to give a favorable tax break to a billion dollar company and not another. Especially when downtown has 20% vacancy rate. If private companies want to expand they can either build with their own money or rent from another landlord. If things are so great in the city then why is the Mayor asking for the schools and hospitals to start paying into the city coffers to help fund the city? (thats an extra tax) Why is the Mayor telling downtown business's to help the city provide BID. So as a small business owner in which I'm paying my fair share of taxes and now I have to contribute to BID then the city & state give additional tax breaks to a billion dollar insurance company to expand in the best part of the city. I would rather live in a cardboard box than give these fucking assholes a tax break.
I think you might want to rethink TIF. Because in reality all TIF means is the city and state officials helped out a campaign donor which helped the democrats buy more votes in NOV elections by letting the UNIONS build with taxpayers money. And in the end the only people that end up with the wealth is LIBERTY MUTUAL Investors.
Those are facts.
Your dreaming. Do you think a developer would buy a parcel without knowing legally what he needs to do. The biggest issue to this development is with the mayor on the height. After that Chiofaro is responsible for find parking spots that are accessible. If I was him I would actually do everything legally to screw everybody since nobody is working with him to help move the project forward. The BRA is telling the public that this sight does not need to be rushed.
The way I look at the city, state and federal officials is that they fuck up everything they touch. When a private developer comes along with private investors that is the only time something is usually done right. Smart money.
I don't know why he is willing to give the city 50 Million dollars. I wouldn't give these assholes 50cents.
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AmericanFolkLegend
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Here's a link to the BRA FAQ sheet on the Liberty Mutual TIF. TIFs are not intended to boost high-end developments in viable markets (like the Boston Arch). The are intended to spur developments that otherwise wouldn't happen (which you can argue does or doesn't apply to the Liberty Mutual build out).
Here's a link to the BRA FAQ sheet on the Liberty Mutual TIF. TIFs are not intended to boost high-end developments in viable markets (like the Boston Arch). The are intended to spur developments that otherwise wouldn't happen (which you can argue does or doesn't apply to the Liberty Mutual build out).
TheRifleman
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Re: Filene's
Trying to figure out what the BRA actually does?
It seems they are just inconsistent with every process on each development.
They need a process that is consistent with every project in the city.
Trying to figure out what the BRA actually does?
It seems they are just inconsistent with every process on each development.
They need a process that is consistent with every project in the city.
statler
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Re: Filene's
So you would be cool with the BRA demanding Chifaro(sp) summit all his financial documents to the city prior to the start of construction on the Aquarium Garage? Cuz I don't think Don would be too happy about that.
So you would be cool with the BRA demanding Chifaro(sp) summit all his financial documents to the city prior to the start of construction on the Aquarium Garage? Cuz I don't think Don would be too happy about that.
TheRifleman
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Re: Filene's
If Chiofaro got approved for his project he better have sometype of financing before blowing a hole into the garage. Even 30% commitment from a lender that locks the lender in the project. I understand that 100% financing will not happen.
Chiofaro is in a different situation the garage right now is a money maker and the Filenes building was dead money. Hynes tried to pull a fast one on the city. I'm assuming Hynes knew the lender bailed and continue the demo process. I will give Menino credit for not bailing him out.
This should be common sense for the city development process. If a developer starts demolition he needs to at least build the foundation before the lender bailsouts on him.
So if I own a plot of land in Boston and I get through all the approval process with a some PIPE DREAM 2,000FT project I don't have to provide any financial information to the city LOL.............Just promises.
If Chiofaro got approved for his project he better have sometype of financing before blowing a hole into the garage. Even 30% commitment from a lender that locks the lender in the project. I understand that 100% financing will not happen.
Chiofaro is in a different situation the garage right now is a money maker and the Filenes building was dead money. Hynes tried to pull a fast one on the city. I'm assuming Hynes knew the lender bailed and continue the demo process. I will give Menino credit for not bailing him out.
This should be common sense for the city development process. If a developer starts demolition he needs to at least build the foundation before the lender bailsouts on him.
So if I own a plot of land in Boston and I get through all the approval process with a some PIPE DREAM 2,000FT project I don't have to provide any financial information to the city LOL.............Just promises.
KentXie
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Re: Filene's
I think most supporters are calling for an approval process for the Aquarium Garage. Right now the mayor isn't even trying to talk to Chiofaro. At least they need to get the design and size nailed down before Chiofaro can provide numbers. He can't if he has no estimate of the cost.
I think most supporters are calling for an approval process for the Aquarium Garage. Right now the mayor isn't even trying to talk to Chiofaro. At least they need to get the design and size nailed down before Chiofaro can provide numbers. He can't if he has no estimate of the cost.
greenwayguy1982
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Re: Filene's
^
Kent, how can you possibly say that Chiofaro "has no estimate of the cost" when he constantly brags about his fictitious "billion-dollar project" in the media...are you saying he's making that up out of nowhere? Only trouble is, it's not a "billion-dollar" anything absent financing, and to Rifleman's point, why should the BRA give him the time of day when Chiofaro's partner has publicly stated that they don't have any financing to build the project?
^
Kent, how can you possibly say that Chiofaro "has no estimate of the cost" when he constantly brags about his fictitious "billion-dollar project" in the media...are you saying he's making that up out of nowhere? Only trouble is, it's not a "billion-dollar" anything absent financing, and to Rifleman's point, why should the BRA give him the time of day when Chiofaro's partner has publicly stated that they don't have any financing to build the project?
KentXie
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Re: Filene's
I'll answer you with a question. Let's say YOU want to construct a building, but your first proposal was rejected. You want to redesign the building that is outside the guideline but the person that handles the approval process won't discuss with you so you don't know exactly how big the project can be, what the design will be, how much floor space there will be, etc. Now can you give me an estimate on how much the project will cost? And I want a somewhat specific number. Not like, "hundreds of million." I mean like in the "range of 60 million."
I'll answer you with a question. Let's say YOU want to construct a building, but your first proposal was rejected. You want to redesign the building that is outside the guideline but the person that handles the approval process won't discuss with you so you don't know exactly how big the project can be, what the design will be, how much floor space there will be, etc. Now can you give me an estimate on how much the project will cost? And I want a somewhat specific number. Not like, "hundreds of million." I mean like in the "range of 60 million."
greenwayguy1982
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Re: Filene's
^
I wouldn't have bought the site in the first place without a permitting contingency for some pipe-dream project knowing I'd have to comply with Chapter 91 and the Harborpark zoning, thus, no need to estimate the project's cost in the first place. Plus, you say "you don't know exactly how big the project can be" but in fact, it's crystal clear how big the project can be. Go read the Boston MHP and the Harborpark zoning, you'll have your answer.
^
I wouldn't have bought the site in the first place without a permitting contingency for some pipe-dream project knowing I'd have to comply with Chapter 91 and the Harborpark zoning, thus, no need to estimate the project's cost in the first place. Plus, you say "you don't know exactly how big the project can be" but in fact, it's crystal clear how big the project can be. Go read the Boston MHP and the Harborpark zoning, you'll have your answer.
TheRifleman
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Re: Filene's
Greenwayguy I think you misunderstood what I was saying..
A developer needs to prove that he has sometype of lender commitment before he follows through a demolition process into anytype of development.
That doesn?t mean when a developer buys a project he has to show that he has 100% financing to build whatever he is dreaming of. Nothing would ever get built.
The BRA really has nothing to do with the developer finding the lender or investors.
I think the only time the BRA needs to know that the developer has lender commitment is when the developer is actually proceeding with the 1stphase of construction.
Proposing or designing a project has nothing to do with if you have 100% financing for a project.
A developer could propose a 10 billion dollar project and if he finds the investors lenders why not let him build especially if everyone was on the same page. Most developers usually don?t have 100% cash to finance a billion dollar project.
Greenwayguy I think you misunderstood what I was saying..
A developer needs to prove that he has sometype of lender commitment before he follows through a demolition process into anytype of development.
That doesn?t mean when a developer buys a project he has to show that he has 100% financing to build whatever he is dreaming of. Nothing would ever get built.
The BRA really has nothing to do with the developer finding the lender or investors.
I think the only time the BRA needs to know that the developer has lender commitment is when the developer is actually proceeding with the 1stphase of construction.
Proposing or designing a project has nothing to do with if you have 100% financing for a project.
A developer could propose a 10 billion dollar project and if he finds the investors lenders why not let him build especially if everyone was on the same page. Most developers usually don?t have 100% cash to finance a billion dollar project.
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