[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: Filene's

greenwayguy1982 said:
^
I wouldn't have bought the site in the first place without a permitting contingency for some pipe-dream project knowing I'd have to comply with Chapter 91 and the Harborpark zoning, thus, no need to estimate the project's cost in the first place. Plus, you say "you don't know exactly how big the project can be" but in fact, it's crystal clear how big the project can be. Go read the Boston MHP and the Harborpark zoning, you'll have your answer.
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The question is not whether you would buy it or not. The question is what is the estimate. Chiofaro is trying to build outside the limit, something that IS possible if both side discuss, come to agreement, and give concessions in order to move a project forward. Now please answer the question instead of avoiding it. You can assume that you want to build bigger than the zoning. How much bigger is determined by you. If you cannot give an estimate, that only proves that one cannot give estimates when one does not know what he can work with.

Actually, let me redo the situation because I am certain you'll just choose the smallest size.

So how about this. You own a piece of land that you want to build your house on. You want a triple decker to give enough space for your family of 6. However you realized that the city will not allow you to build anything higher than one floor. The land plot is small so that at one floor, you will not have enough space for your family. You cannot sell the plot. You ask for a meeting with an official for an exception but he refuses to speak with you. The city wants you to give them an estimate but you have nothing to work with. What is your estimate?
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^
Are you suggesting that this is like Chiofaro wanting to build himself and his family a house?

And is there any evidence whatsoever that the BRA has ever "refused" to meet with Chiofaro? I think not.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

There are several posters here who persistently make apologies for Chiofaro because he can't develop the numbers.

As it turns out, Chiofaro has developed the numbers for various different iterations of his Arch project.

You can read them here (on Don's own website):

http://harborgarageproject.com/_cus...Sum.FinalSummaryScheduleOnlywithSignature.pdf

You can assert that the numbers are sketchy, or unrealistic, or biased, but don't claim he shouldn't or can't develop the financials for his proposed project.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
^
Are you suggesting that this is like Chiofaro wanting to build himself and his family a house?

And is there any evidence whatsoever that the BRA has ever "refused" to meet with Chiofaro? I think not.
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Was that an attempt at humor? I think so.

There is plenty of evidence that the Mayor refuses to meet with or discuss this project with Mr. C. The BRA has met with him and discussed this project in the past with Don. They have since flip flopped on their original cheery feelings about a building or buildings significantly higher than is currently allowed on this site.

Have they come out and said "the Mayor told us to change our minds cuz he doesn't like you Mr. Harvard Football man..." Nope. But, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes (John's less famous brother), to figure out what made them change their minds....

But talking logic to some folks is not a good idea, because it just brings you many wasted breaths closer to death.

If every developer in this city for the last hundred years or so, followed the existing zoning laws to the letter (as some antagonists keep saying must be done in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary), we would have a much more boring city scape than we have right now. Not just the skyline, but mainly the skyline is what I am getting at.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stellarfun said:
There are several posters here who persistently make apologies for Chiofaro because he can't develop the numbers.

As it turns out, Chiofaro has developed the numbers for various different iterations of his Arch project.

You can read them here (on Don's own website):

http://harborgarageproject.com/_cus...Sum.FinalSummaryScheduleOnlywithSignature.pdf

You can assert that the numbers are sketchy, or unrealistic, or biased, but don't claim he shouldn't or can't develop the financials for his proposed project.
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One thing is for sure. Chiofaro's numbers make alot more sense than Filenes, Columbus and Liberty Mutual projects for the taxpayers.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^
Hey, at least Filene's and LM will actually get built (either currently or someday in the foreseeable future...leaving CC out of that statement) and create jobs, tax revenue, etc etc....unlike the Harbor Garage site, whose developer has publicly stated that he doesn't have the money to develop. Seamus, your skyline argument isn't consistent with what Chiofaro keeps saying that it's all about the groundplane and activating the site - nothing to do with the skyline....don't take my word for it, read the developer's propaganda about "Activating the Greenway." Haymarket activates the Greenway with little tents and week-old vegatables, how does a skyline relate to what the developer himself keeps focusing on?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
Hey, at least Filene's... will actually get built (either currently or someday in the foreseeable future...
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I'd really like to know what your definition of "foreseeable future" happens to be.

greenwayguy1982 said:
...unlike the Harbor Garage site, whose developer has publicly stated that he doesn't have the money to develop.
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Who in their right mind would give Chiofaro money to build a building if the mayor of the city refuses to speak with him about any proposal of any kind? Don has done his bit, he's come out with several proposals and cost estimates. The city has stonewalled him. It's not even that the design is the real issue, it's that they refuse to move the process of discussing the design forward.

Case in point:

Boston Magazine said:
Kairos Shen, the BRA?s chief planner, has said he wants a building that fits into Boston?s DNA, to which Bill Pedersen, Chiofaro?s architect, literally throws up his hands. ?I have a hard time understanding what a Boston building is,? he says.

Palmieri had difficulty answering that question. After giving a vague statement about size and scale and design and massing, he ultimately echoed former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart?s famous take on obscenity: ?We?ll know it when we see it,? he said.

When I asked about Chiofaro?s claim that they were giving him no option other than simply keeping the garage as is, an alternative no one wants, they stressed that after all these years working to open up that area, they were in no rush; that the area needs time to mature, to evolve on its own. ?On this particular site on this particular day, we can afford to wait,? said Gori.
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What a nice, transparent, navigable process the Mayor has created! Surely this will lead to healthy development and fair treatment of those who wish to invest their money in Boston! I can only imagine it is encouraging other developers to steer their projects towards our city!

"We can afford to wait"! The audacity of that statement is utterly fantastic. You can feel Menino's narcissism seeping out of his underlings with every word. It's clear that he believes the city belongs to him. It's not what's fair, it's not what's best for Boston, it's about what he wants.

Invest millions in some land, and look to make money back on that investment with an even larger investment in jobs? Sure! Go right ahead, until we decide to stop talking to you about it and put our fingers in our ears and ignore you! We can't tell you what we want, we can't tell you what would make you enjoy fair treatment from your government! We can't tell you anything except that there are some horribly vague criteria that are not being met and we probably won't even tell you if you're getting close!
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Some here tenaciously ignore or overlook that Chiofaro hasn't had one conversation with the condo owners of Harbor Towers, who have him and his project by the gonads.

IIRC, at least one poster in this forum has suggested that the city (and the BRA) use eminent domain to allow Chiofaro to proceed with his project, and wipe away the covenants and easements that currently preclude him from doing anything more than dreaming about his Arch.

To give a modicum of credit to Chiofaro, he understands, perhaps belatedly, that he has a problem; hence the rather spontaneous epiphany of a colossus of a floating garage tethered to a dock at a location to be determined.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Arborway, I'm afraid that your lack of specific knowledge about the facts in this case is embarrassing and render your posts somewhat laughable. You ignore the fact that there is, in fact, a well-documented development review process in the city that Chiofaro duly entered into of his own volition, that the BRA followed to a "T" in response, and that Chiofaro has for the past 18+/- months, completely ignored. I still don't understand what you and the other Chiofaro apologists on this board don't understand about that. If he wants to advance the ball on his project, he need only submit a DPIR or an NPC pursuant to Article 80 and advance the ball. It's really painfully simple. The BRA has even said publicly that they would review a subsequent filing by Chiofaro/Pru as they are required to do under Article 80. So why doesn't he/you people just quit whining, make that subsequent filing just like any other developer would, and move the process forward?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sicilian said:
Na?ve.
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What's na?ve is that Greenwayguy seems to think he has galloped onto this forum on his horse and is providing us with basically the only accurate information here, which is contrary to most everything else that has been posted for the past 5 years or so. Luckily, nobody seems to be biting, except for getting riled up with his distortion of the "facts". Hey Greenwayguy, there are numerous case-studies documenting the major inconsistencies and favoritism rampant with this hard "approval process" in projects all over Boston. They're called "every other thread on this website". How about you try reading up a little more, patronizing a little less, or just GO AWAY.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

What is also confounding is that GreenwayGuy is not making an attempt to learn or listen to the information being provided, both by people who support and don't support Chiofaro's plans.

Greenway continues to reference the Harborpark Zoning, while there is no evidence anywhere that the BRA has cast that 20 year-old plan in concrete. There is no reference to the Harborpark Zoning plan anywhere on the web, most particularly on the BRA site that contains all of the reference materials the current administration sees as important. And I believe Greenway admitted he does not have a copy of Harborpark Zoning himself, yet speaks voluminously about its grand vision.

Greenway ignores all of the projects that have arisen in Boston through a highly charged, and highly politicized atmosphere. Greenway has been informed of example after example of area projects that have overridden Chapter 91 through a backdoor State Transportation Bond bill or by having BRA support for the drafting of an amendment to a PDA or MHP (and I think Greenway has erroneously suggested there is an MHP on file for the Aquarium area). Greenway ignores the fact that nearly every former BRA director (Tom O'Brien, Robert Walsh, Bob Ryan, et. al.) have made careers as consultants helping property owners wade through the political mire of approvals. Greenway must be suggesting that those former BRA directors are simply helping developers fill out DPIR, PDA and Article 80 forms. Na?ve at best, laughable at worst.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sicilian:

Harborpark Zoning District = Article 42A. Available on the web. And you can have a copy too, just download it. And since you seem to believe that it's comonplace to "override" Chapter 91 (btw - a PDA can't override Chapter 91 - you're mixing apples and oranges), name me one example over the past 20 years of such an override by a development project located in the Downtown Waterfront area of the Harborpark Zoning district/MHP.

And I'm doing more than suggesting that there is an there is an MHP on file for the Aquarium area. I'm stating it as a fact. It's the 1991 Downtown Waterfront section of the Boston Municipal Harbor Pan.

With respect to past BRA directors Messrs. Ryan, Walsh, and O'Brien, again, Sicilian, since you are such a devotee of fact-based posting, tell us how many commercial development projects secured relief from the Harborpark Zoning over the past couple of years that any one of those individuals served as a consultant on.

Look, I'm sorry if you think I'm being patronizing but I haven't heard many of the pro-Chiofaro posters on this thread come out with many real facts. Most folks talk about their perception of how "the system" works and how terribly unjust it is, but the facts in this case woud seem to suggest otherwise. Consider the three points above and let's talk about who knows the facts in this case.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I think you are being evasive.

For each example I mentioned where projects have moved forward after requiring the drafting of a new MHP; or an amendment to an MHP; or a backdoor exemption to an MHP; you simply state "show me those examples within the Harborpark Zoning bounds." I never stated those examples existed within the Harborpark Zoning bounds.

You are very well aware those examples exist all along the Boston Waterfront and Seaport, within Chapter 91 tidelands, just perhaps not within the Harborpark Zoning bounds.

So either you are being evasive by refocusing all of my points to the Harborpark area, or you actually believe the Harborpark Zoning is sacrosanct while the world changes around it. Which is it?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Greenwayguy, do you have a vested interest in promoting opposition to chiofaro's proposal? If so, I think it's clearly dishonest and unethical for you not to disclose this.

I have no problem with people personally or financially involved in projects posting on the board about those projects. However, I think most will agree that attempting to influence public opinion while portraying yourself as a concerned citizen when if fact you are merely promoting your own business/self interests is unacceptable.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sicilian I think it is you who is being evasive....after attacking me for not knowing the facts about the Harborpark Zoning and the MHP, I clearly presented the facts about these as they apply to the Harbor Garage site and you're now saying that you weren't taking about the Harbor Garage site after all. Unlike most on this thread, I'm not interested in making wildly inaccurate blanket statements about the alleged injustices of the development review process in Boston -- I'm talking about the actual deveopment review process, the actual letter of the law, and how it actually relates/applies to the Harbor Garage site (and environs) and I again challenge you to come up with any of these alleged "exemptions" or "backdoors" or "politicized" atmospherics that have resulted in deviations from the Downtown Waterfront district zoning in the past 20 years such as the one being sought by Chiofaro/Pru. That's all I'm talking about since that's the subject of this thread and our discussion.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Hi briv, I'm not trying to influence public opinion or promote opposition to anything - I'm just sharing my perspective just as others share theirs, albeit with more focus on factual background. I'm certainly very interested in this project and this thread specifically because I care about protecting the Greenway and the future of downtown.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I'll make my points very carefully.

A) The way you've spoken week after week about "Harborpark" zoning, I had interpreted it to mean that some comprehensive urban plan existed, the same way I am familiar with the Seaport plan (available online) and also the comprehensive process that went into the 2003 Downtown MHP (for the area including Russia Wharf, etc.). I have found no references online to any such comprehensive process for the Harborpark area. I never doubted there was a zoning map, but you have made it seem like there is a substantive plan for the Harborpark area from 1991 and I could find no references to it. If you want to provide links to anything more than the Article 42A zoning map, please do so.

B) I was aware that the BRA drafted an MHP for the Seaport, sometime around 2002. I was aware that the BRA drafted an MHP for Downtown Waterfront (i.e. Russia Wharf, etc.) somewhere around 2003-2005. I am not aware of the MHP that you are talking about for the Harborpark area. Please provide a link to it. In any case, if one exists, it can be amended.

C) Examples of projects that varied from the pre-existing Chapter 91 guidelines, requiring either a new MHP, an amendment to an MHP, or a backdoor exemption:

1. Russia Wharf
2. Intercontinental
3. Independence Wharf
4. Fan Pier
5. South Station tower

Tell me why I need to provide examples within Harborpark Zoning bounds to prove that its possible for Chiofaro or anyone else to move forward in the Harborpark Zoning bounds, as long as the BRA is willing to help navigate the State approval process.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

A: The Harborpark Plan was developed in the late 1980s through a years-long community planning process and was the precursor planning/public realm vision document that became the Harborpark zoning district.

B: 1990 Boston Municipal Harbor Plan (confusingly, also called the "Harborpark Plan") includes the Downtown Waterfront district, which covers the Aquarium. I can't find it online either but I have a copy of it too and it is what it is - an MHP covering the Aquarium/Harbor Garage area.

C: None of those examples is located in the Downtown Waterfront district.

My ultimate point being, Chiofaro/Pru aren't being treated different from anyone else in the Downtown Waterfront (or North End Waterfront) districts. For example, the most recent big development to take place in one of those districts - Battery Wharf - just shut up and complied with Chapter 91.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
My ultimate point being, Chiofaro/Pru aren't being treated different from anyone else in the Downtown Waterfront (or North End Waterfront) districts. For example, the most recent big development to take place in one of those districts - Battery Wharf - just shut up and complied with Chapter 91.
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Hmmm. Mr.Theran went bust over that one.
 
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