[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Great article:

I came to learn that Chiofaro and his partner have, in fact, researched a plan to leave the 80-foot-high garage intact and build 12 stories of condominiums and apartments on top of what?s already there, bringing it to 200 feet.
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I hope he does this. The zoning rules + stone walling by the BRA = shitty buildings.

Nobody wins from this, but at least the guy who goes out on a limb, buys a property, and hopes to do something amazing with it won't lose his shirt in the bargain.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

HenryAlan said:
Great article:


I hope he does this. The zoning rules + stone walling by the BRA = shitty buildings.

Nobody wins from this, but at least the guy who goes out on a limb, buys a property, and hopes to do something amazing with it won't lose his shirt in the bargain.
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This would be AWFUL for the Greenway and the Aquarium area. If Chiofaro goes through with this plan this would be disasterous.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I agree with HenryAlan in principle, but if that occurs, we are, for the next 100 years, stuck with not only that garage, but now another 120ft of landscraper attached to it on top.

I can't see how the mayor would prefer that over almost anything else.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Yea that Palmieri is saying COMPLETELY unacceptable things for a man in public office, its complete arogance. I, along with many, knew that 200 ft at this location gets you a shitty stump (basic economics). And not to vilanize you or single you out, but Greenway Guy would you be happy with this, honestly you know as well as the next guy this will be an even bigger eyesore?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

GW2500 said:
Yea that Palmieri is saying COMPLETELY unacceptable things for a man in public office, its complete arogance. I, along with many, knew that 200 ft at this location gets you a shitty stump (basic economics). And not to vilanize you or single you out, but Greenway Guy would you be happy with this, honestly you know as well as the next guy this will be an even bigger eyesore?
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Say Chiofaro went forward building 200ft stump. How does that apply with chap 91 without any public access to the waterfront?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

palindrome said:
I agree with HenryAlan in principle, but if that occurs, we are, for the next 100 years, stuck with not only that garage, but now another 120ft of landscraper attached to it on top.
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It's entirely a matter of principle. I really, really, really, hope it doesn't pan out that way, but if the Mayor/BRA continue to stonewall, I would definitely support the statement being made that a monolithic stump that completely blocks access to the harbor is the only option in Boston.
I can't see how the mayor would prefer that over almost anything else.
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I think that's the idea. This is more than likely the next bargaining ploy. Chioforo is ready to play hard ball, and the Mayor is going to be faced with making some accommodation or being seen as responsible for ruining the parcel.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Chiofaro is about bluster. I don't think he would attempt to build much more than a swingset atop the garage without the BRA/Mayor's support. There are too many variables and too many permits required, each with political strings attached.

I said weeks ago the project is DOA, and still think it is. Boston deserves a fresh start here. Maybe it would begin with a public Harborpark planning process that would satisfy the State (for approval of an MHP amendment) and a comprehensive zoning amendment to properly address the entire area. IMHO, it was misguided to consider one parcel without a more contextual approach to neighboring parcels, the Greenway, etc.

Unfortunately, the BRA does not have a stellar track record of following through on its past Master Plans with matching zoning amendments. So, despite the fact that the garage sucks, progress may be best left to a new administration at City Hall.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

This is a serious statement. I wonder what will greenwayguy comment. Based on the assumption that this will get approved and start construction. I guess if the 200 foot building that keeps the garage get built, it shows that if he follows protocols, it will be approved, as he/you argued (this ignores that the articles claims that the full application process is a multi-million dollar process, which asks that if that how development application works spending millions to see if it will be approved or that, that a high incentive to go as safe as possible). However, I really don't feel that it shows the system works.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sicilian said:
Chiofaro is about bluster. I don't think he would attempt to build much more than a swingset atop the garage without the BRA/Mayor's support. There are too many variables and too many permits required, each with political strings attached.

I said weeks ago the project is DOA, and still think it is. Boston deserves a fresh start here. Maybe it would begin with a public Harborpark planning process that would satisfy the State (for approval of an MHP amendment) and a comprehensive zoning amendment to properly address the entire area. IMHO, it was misguided to consider one parcel without a more contextual approach to neighboring parcels, the Greenway, etc.

Unfortunately, the BRA does not have a stellar track record of following through on its past Master Plans with matching zoning amendments. So, despite the fact that the garage sucks, progress may be best left to a new administration at City Hall.
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Sicilian my first post that I will have to disagree. I could see Chiofaro build a 200ft POS on purpose to spite the city. This would bring the house of cards down on the BRA. Boston citizens would start to realize that the only intention the BRA has is political. They have no interest in planning a better city and in the end the Mayor will be known for destroying one of the best development parcel in town. History would show that our Mayor was fucking moron.

In the end for Chiofaro it's about MONEY
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^Rifleman
Even if you disagree, my point is that Chiofaro won't make progress without the BRA and Mayor's support -- even if he proceeds as-of-right. Consider the certificate of occupancy; the inspections; etc. And consider he'd probably be required to file for state approval under Chapter 91 -- the Mayor could probably put the kabosh on that approval by coming up with some rationale by which the City registers opposition to the project. I suppose it could end in a lawsuit for development as-of-right, but would Chiofaro really build 200' under such a dark cloud?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sicilian said:
^Rifleman
Even if you disagree, my point is that Chiofaro won't make progress without the BRA and Mayor's support -- even if he proceeds as-of-right. Consider the certificate of occupancy; the inspections; etc. And consider he'd probably be required to file for state approval under Chapter 91 -- the Mayor could probably put the kabosh on that approval by coming up with some rationale by which the City registers opposition to the project. I suppose it could end in a lawsuit for development as-of-right, but would Chiofaro really build 200' under such a dark cloud?
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I think the city could lose tens of millions in a lawsuit against Pru & Chiofaro.

You can't build high, but you can't build low? We won't support this project.

That doesn't make sense. Chiofaro has compromised 100% to the BRA demands now they are going to try to screw the developer & investors. This would get real UGLY.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sicilian said:
^Rifleman
Even if you disagree, my point is that Chiofaro won't make progress without the BRA and Mayor's support -- even if he proceeds as-of-right. Consider the certificate of occupancy; the inspections; etc. And consider he'd probably be required to file for state approval under Chapter 91 -- the Mayor could probably put the kabosh on that approval by coming up with some rationale by which the City registers opposition to the project. I suppose it could end in a lawsuit for development as-of-right, but would Chiofaro really build 200' under such a dark cloud?
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They probably will and in the end, we get to keep a freaking concrete garage. The Mayor Menino garage, 10 minutes from Mayor Menino pit, and the Mayor Menino sandbox. They can probbably fill the entire Filene's pit with all the brilliant ideas that never got off the ground, pun intended.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Since so many of you have been interested in my post on this....I am not even going to dignify this latest PR stunt with any opinion about what it would or wouldn't look like or would or wouldn't mean for the Greenway etc etc, all for the following reason:

It appears that the Chiofaro Company is throwing this out as a red herring. Nothing more, nothing less. He is trying to scare everyone by threatening to build something that would never be built anyway for so many reasons it's embarrassing. All of you seem to have fallen for his tactic and are now wringing your hands about what will happen to the city if this gets built. Don't worry, it won't, and you should stop debating an idea that is being thrown into the public domain purely as a scare tactic.

That's all.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
Since so many of you have been interested in my post on this....I am not even going to dignify this latest PR stunt with any opinion about what it would or wouldn't look like or would or wouldn't mean for the Greenway etc etc, all for the following reason:

It appears that the Chiofaro Company is throwing this out as a red herring. Nothing more, nothing less. He is trying to scare everyone by threatening to build something that would never be built anyway for so many reasons it's embarrassing. All of you seem to have fallen for his tactic and are now wringing your hands about what will happen to the city if this gets built. Don't worry, it won't, and you should stop debating an idea that is being thrown into the public domain purely as a scare tactic.

That's all.
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Your denial speaks volume. Whether he builds something or not, we're stuck with a garage. Thanks buddy.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

But it's OK, because the residents in the top half of the Harbor Towers will not have their precious views obstructed. Their belief that they have a right to a monopoly of the sky above 200 feet on the waterfront is what is driving most of the opposition to this project.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Scare tactics or not, at 200 ft what we'll get is shit or the same garage. That truely is the bottom line about this.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I wouldn't be as pessimistic.

Some patience may be the only requirement.

If we are fortunate to have more progressive leadership down the road, the area could be rezoned and Chapter 91 amended to reflect a substantial step up in density, with the goal of creating an active commercial/residential/civic environment. This is exactly what the Greenway is calling for. The Greenway is not the front yard of Harbor Towers.

During a serious planning process, Harbor Towers residents could be faced with an ultimatum: either negotiate or lose your voice in the dialog. I'm sure there could be some quid-pro-quo negotiations that eliminate or change the garage and pool, while enriching Harbor Towers in some other way. Both a garage and a pool can be relocated if necessary. The pool might make sense atop a newly constructed tower on the site.

But I don't think any of this is likely to play out with either Chiofaro or Menino at the helm. We may be lucky if these two are stalemated.

^Rifleman -- I meant Chiofaro suing the City, not vice-versa.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

What Greenwayguy fails to recognize is that Chiofaro has power as well. Sure the BRA decides whether a project gets built or not. However, the BRA does not have the power to dictate how the building is designed besides height. Chiofaro wouldn't design a pretty tower if it doesn't maximizes his benefits. If he wants to design a wall, then a wall is the only thing the BRA will see. If it doesn't get approve, fine with Chiofaro. He keeps his garage and the city keeps an eyesore. This is brinkmanship at its best and the dumb mayor is playing the grim strategy instead of tit for tat.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I'm not sure about that. I think the project would have to pass architectural muster at the Boston Civic Design Commission in order to proceed through approvals. That doesn't mean crap won't get built, because it does, but any glaringly obvious obscenities probably won't cut it. There are some fairly powerful interests in the vicinity that have an interest in the outcome.
 
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