[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
Nothing happened until John Hynes picked up the ball and ran down the field with it for a touchdown with State Street. Big developments don't need to take two decades to happen. Again, look at Liberty Mutual - less than a year from proposal to groundbreaking.
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Until Hynes fumbled and ran the wrong way which he ended up scoring for the other team in the Filenes development deal and completely destroyed Boston's Downtown District. Also I remember Hynes quoting everybody in the paper that he Built State Street without a tenant and he just had instincts to build on spec. Then to find out the tenant was renting space at IP before they just left for State Street. Then Chiofaro sues.

I do give Hynes credit for getting the deal done and there is also two sides to every story. I'm assuming Commercial Real Estate industry is pretty much cuthroat industry.

The sick part out of all of this is the BRA gives him the greenlight to develop part of the Seaport District. Hows that going?

(Liberty Mutual is a billion dollar company which got tax breaks which brings down the costs of everything in building & with the support of the BRA greenlight to do whatever they need to get something built) Greenwayguy what don't you get? Give me free money and I will build something cool with no risks to my personal fortune.


stellarfun said:
In essence, he is back to where he was in the year before he bought the garage, when he and the BRA sat down and discussed his plans for the site, which in essence, was for a building(s) that was as high or a bit higher than Harbor Towers. Based on those conversations, he apparently felt confident enough to pay $155 million for the garage. Once the garage was his, and without further conversation with the city, he basically doubled-down on the height. So six years later, we're probably back to those pre-buy-the-garage conversations.
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The FAA has no problem with anything under 600ft in this location. How do I know this. Common Sense...... since Harbor Towers are next door at 400ft and IP is across the Street at 600ft.

The problem with you Stellarfun is besides the personal attacks on Chiofaro which your having trouble getting past.

I want answers on why the city planners would rather ruin an area that is prime spot for something unique which they are looking to settle on a 200ft reskin box garage. The BRA & Mayor have been against this development from the beginning. This is not about the BRA & Mayor, this should be about the taxpayers, citizens of Mass which have funded the entire Greenway & Big-Dig with their hard-earned money.

So why 200ft? This not the best interest of the city or the taxpayers to leave a wall of concrete with condos on top of it. This is the Mayor just flexing how much power he has and could careless what people think. This dictator has to go.

So we have to deal with a situation not to better the Greenway or Waterfront because the Mayor claims it will cast shadows, or he thinks the building is too big. Who the fuck is this guy a professional architect designer. The mayor was an insurance salesman. Let the citizens of Mass decide what is good for this location not a bunch of Political lifers that can't make it in the real world.
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Topic-wise:

With the proposal withdrawn, is Chiofaro restricted to the 200 ft ceiling imposed by King Menino or is Chiofaro allowed to negotiate for a higher ceiling with a new proposal? Seeing how the two residential fortresses next door are both 400 ft and the skyscrapers a block behind exceeds 500 ft, it should be reasonable that this plot can be at least the height of the Harbor Towers if not more.

If contractual responsibilities are taken care of (HVAC for the Harbor Tower), can Chiofaro put forth a proposal that is higher than the ceiling height? Or is Chiofaro forced to put a lipstick on a pig and then tack on a top hat.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Kent, I think the 200-foot ceiling was just a recommendation (i.e., never enacted into the zoning code). So Chiofaro's as-of-right ceiling is 155-feet. That means anything over 155 feet needs relief from the Zoning Board of Appeals. Getting that relief will mean concessions from Don (e.g., public amenities).
ZBA relief is pretty easy to challenge in court. I'm no lawyer but I believe the burden of proof is for an abutter to show that they'll be negatively impacted by the development. So, unless Chiofaro can make nice with the Harbor Tower residents (so they don't appeal) or make nice with the mayor (so that the property gets "upzoned" or designated a PDA), the Boston Arch has some major hurdles to get over if he wants to build higher than 155 feet.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

10) Garage elements. The parking in general must be minimized.
Submit information which justifies the scale and amount of parking proposed by analyzing both current levels of use and projected future levels with an expectation of expanded alternative modes of transit.
Parking here serves both the Harbor Towers residents and public visitors to the New England Aquarium, Greenway, and Harbor boats. The BRA asks that the infrastructure constraints be studied to clarify any limitations for the proposed phasing, given that the garage functions must continue unabated through all phases to serve the demands of the Harbor Towers and New England Aquarium. The BRA expects that all transportation elements will be designed in harmony with the architectural treatments and integrated into the design. Above-grade garage floors should be avoided, unless the Proponent elects to investigate an alternative that retains the existing garage in whole or in part. In such a case, partial retention should have garage uses completely covered, with active program uses, if possible, on all sides fronting primary streets. Treatment of any directly visible portions of the garage will be presumed to be transformative, and should be of a high architectural character with robustly convincing detail.
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p. 15 of the scoping document. (bolding mine)
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1030611...AUTHORITY-SCOPING-DETERMINATION-HARBOR-GARAGE

For aviation, see p. 11 of this document.
http://www.env.state.ma.us/mepa/pdffiles/certificates/071709/14411enf.pdf

For Chiofaro's acknowledgement that he would need FAA approval, see:
http://www.env.state.ma.us/mepa/pdffiles/enfs/050609em/14411.pdf

The PNF does not mention any aviation issues. Interestingly, the PNF indicates that the design would need to be altered because as proposed, the wind effect was too high.

http://www.bostonredevelopmentautho.../PipeDocs/Harbor Garage/Harbor Garage_PNF.pdf

For the BRA scoping document and about 710 pages of comments on the initial proposal, see:
http://www.bostonredevelopmentautho...Harbor Garage/Harbor Garage_Determination.pdf
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

KentXie said:
Topic-wise:

With the proposal withdrawn, is Chiofaro restricted to the 200 ft ceiling imposed by King Menino or is Chiofaro allowed to negotiate for a higher ceiling with a new proposal? Seeing how the two residential fortresses next door are both 400 ft and the skyscrapers a block behind exceeds 500 ft, it should be reasonable that this plot can be at least the height of the Harbor Towers if not more.

If contractual responsibilities are taken care of (HVAC for the Harbor Tower), can Chiofaro put forth a proposal that is higher than the ceiling height? Or is Chiofaro forced to put a lipstick on a pig and then tack on a top hat.
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The third, never built, Harbor Tower was as tall as the other two, and closer to what is now the Greenway.

The BRA wants the garage buried, so Chiofaro can easily demonstrate there is a tradeoff: the cost of burying the garage can only be offset by letting him build high. The BRA will concede, and I think the final result will be a single tower between 400 and 500 feet, with retail on two floors, a hotel, and residences on top.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I'll take it.

Provided the footprint is smaller than what is there.

There's still room for a second building on that lot with the space between.
Build this 400-500 footer, and a 155 - 300 footer adjacent. This allows the path to the sea/aquarium, allows for smaller foot prints (garage underneath connects both). Allows for needed square footage, while reducing on superblockiness. Also, it would add some variety to the buildings which is needed with the ugmo twins that are the Harbor Towers.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the financial backing and design expertise/vision are currently not there for Team Don, but those can be brought into the fold. As many have stated, it is too prime a location to not upgrade in a smart and hopefully grand way.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

This site is over an acre and thus will almost certainly be developed as a PDA, making arguments about the underlying zoning / recommended height ceiling rather pointless.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

My bad then, i'm not overly familiar with the underlying zoning districts. As an aside, what in particular makes it different?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Hutchison said:
My bad then, i'm not overly familiar with the underlying zoning districts. As an aside, what in particular makes it different?
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To get a PDA status for a development you have to be in one of the designated urban renewal overlay zoning districts.

However, there is another out for site specific zoning (there is always an way to get around local zoning restrictions if the BRA and the Mayor want the project done), you can go for a U District designation, which acts a lot like a PDA. The "Boston Arch" project has requested U District status.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

JeffDowntown said:
To get a PDA status for a development you have to be in one of the designated urban renewal overlay zoning districts.

However, there is another out for site specific zoning (there is always an way to get around local zoning restrictions if the BRA and the Mayor want the project done), you can go for a U District designation, which acts a lot like a PDA. The "Boston Arch" project has requested U District status.
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That is not correct. To establish a Planned Development Area, you need to have a site of at least one acre and be in an area where PDAs are permitted. The areas where PDAs are permitted does not correspond to urban renewal overlay zoning districts. Until the City started rezoning neighborhood by neighborhood, PDAs were generally permitted as long as the site was at least one acre. District zoning now typically specifies the areas in which PDAs are and are not permitted. The one-acre requirement remains. U District designation applies to Urban Renewal Areas established under the Zoning Code - like a PDA, a form of overlay district permitting zoning flexibility under the Code.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

1-EAST-RIVER-DAY.jpg


Well doesn't this look familiar!

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2013/...tal_towers_rising_in_first_avenue_mud_pit.php
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

With apologies to ablarc: "Better than the mud-pit."
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sigh, must we continue to build things that seem to be in structural distress?

cca
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Speaking of the devil, Chiofaro and Prudential borrowed $85 million back in 2008 to help finance their purchase of the Harbor Garage. Five year note that was due this summer.
http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2008/07/07/daily18.html

Chiofaro and Prudential have just refinanced, this time for $90 million.
http://alex-donedeals.blogspot.com/2013/06/90-million-financing-arranged-by-hff.html

So if he had developed any equity with respect to some principal payments, that has been tossed away, and he is now a little bit more in hock. Another five years, another big balloon payment due at the end.

http://alex-donedeals.blogspot.com/2013/06/90-million-financing-arranged-by-hff.html
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stellarfun said:
Applying the same logic you do to Fallon, Chiofaro is finished if he can't find a tenant for a building that he has yet to build.

Chiofaro's problem is that the number of corporate HQ of big Boston-based companies who are looking for trophy space now or in the future is ZERO. There is a certain developer, as friendly with the mayor as Don is not, who concedes he can't find anyone willing to lease in the trophy space building -- much smaller than the Harbor Garage project -- that he wants to build on the SCL site.

If my surmising is right, Chiofaro has a big balloon payment on an $85 million note coming due in 2012 or so. What do you think the odds are that he defaults on that note?
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So what are the odds Chiofaro defaults in 2018 now? Since you have such high expectations on the developers demise.

One thing I will say Stellarfun you don't know shit.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Thanks Rifleman, that was helpful. You sure know how to constructively contribute to an internet forum.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
So what are the odds Chiofaro defaults in 2018 now? Since you have such high expectations on the developers demise.

One thing I will say Stellarfun you don't know shit.
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As you have a lacunae memory, I never predicted he would default. All that I said was, with the original five year note, he would be under some time pressure to show progress in getting the development permitted and approved if he wanted to get the note refinanced. He has shown no progress, yet the capital markets have improved markedly. So he was able to get another five year note, whether the new terms are more favorable to him or the lender, I know not.

Maybe if he wasn't 68 years old, he could afford to wait out the expiration of easements and covenants that Harbor Towers has respect to part of his garage, but by the time they expire, he'd be as old as Anthony A. when he dreamed big about developing the waterfront.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

fattony said:
Thanks Rifleman, that was helpful. You sure know how to constructively contribute to an internet forum.
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This is a BLOG, not a forum, and we are all BLOGGERS. Ain't that right, Rifleman? (and did I put the ALL CAPS in the right places?)
 
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