[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

[stick n move]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The woolworth building in new york is regarded as one of the most beautiful high rises of all time and that is clad in terra cotta. Im not saying this is on that level, but terra cotta can be done right. The color goes with the palette of Boston, this is a red brick city. Im not saying this is the greatest design of all time but I would consider this world class when you add the sum of its parts together.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

It makes no difference what's good for the taxpayers. Chiofaro's development is occurring after the laws were put in place, ergo the laws govern him but do not govern them.

I am curious how many restrictions the city could hit the HT with about that outdoor space. Sure they can have it, but can they change it?

Could the city ban them from ever replacing a failed section of fence? No

Could the city prevent them from bringing deck chairs back outside after the winter? No

Could they prevent landscaping? No

There's a lot of dickish things you can do to grandfathered properties. Similarly, I wonder if Chiofaro has some in mind to get them to let him move their spaces underground before 2022.

Without ever having read the language of the easements that give HT a property interest in the existing garage for the next eight years or so, I feel pretty sure they have Chiofaro by the gonads until that date.

You may recall Ted Otis's initial proposal was to build the new underground garage in two phases, so they could keep the HT residents garaged in one half as construction of the other half proceeded. The foolishness of that idea was replaced by Chiofaro's proposal to build a great floating garage to house the HT cars, but that ran aground because, among other issues, he couldn't find a place to dock it.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The woolworth building in new york is regarded as one of the most beautiful high rises of all time and that is clad in terra cotta. Im not saying this is on that level, but terra cotta can be done right. The color goes with the palette of Boston, this is a red brick city. Im not saying this is the greatest design of all time but I would consider this world class when you add the sum of its parts together.

The Woolworth is ornamental terracotta.

45 Province is not.
http://www.shildan.com/project/45-province-terracotta-rainscreen/

So is it your view that if 45 Province was replicated to 600 feet that would make it world class?

 

[Sicilian]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Might as well add a few points. Feel free to correct.

1) No plan has been filed by Chiofaro Co. for approval at the BRA.
2) No plan is likely to be filed in 2014 by Chiofaro Co. for approval at the BRA.
3) The only decision currently being made is massing and some decisions regarding open space (whether a glass winter garden fulfills public access requirements). Public support for Chiofaro Co. proposal at this time equates to public support for the proposed massing (FAR) and amount of open space, nothing more.
4) All renderings being circulated are conceptual placeholders. Once massing is approved everything is up for alteration including architecture and public realm.
5) During this lame process (proven by history), the BRA is drafting an entire Downtown Waterfront Municipal Harbor Plan for state approval, while the public (and forum members) focus 99% of attention on the architecture of two towers for a project that won't be submitted for approvals until 2015.
6) The Seaport District is what it is because the public was engaged in height vs. open space debates while an entire Municipal Harbor Plan was being drafted. The result IMHO: bland buildings, housing shortfall, nothing to do after 9 PM except eat and drink. An outcome directly related to the focus on height vs. open space during the Seaport's critical MHP drafting process.
7) Might as well point out that during Fan Pier massing debate (the drafting of the Seaport MHP in 1999) the Fan Pier project included a tidal marsh designed by a world-renown landscape architect. And Fan Pier during the MHP drafting had a skating rink. The press and public were giddy about these amenities, and public meetings focused mainly on the public realm. Of course, these amenities were amended away after approvals.
8) Seaport Square included a skating rink during approvals.

As for me, I'd like Harbor Square to be one tower, tall and slender, perhaps oriented in some way to address Harbor Towers concerns (I'm not very sympathetic but this makes sense). The tower could be built on a wide base, perhaps approximating 50-75% of the existing garage). I'd like a signature cultural attraction -- a Performing Arts Center, on two floors in the base, with retail/restaurants at edges and upper levels. To make the Performing Arts Center approach a possibility, aggregate all Chapter 91 interior uses (visitor centers, conference rooms, corporate lobbies, ticket offices, gazebos, map rooms, observation decks, etc. typically qualified as "civic/cultural uses"). Hard to believe (as Stellar points out) that we're this far without a ground floor plan to consider in relation to the public realm.

Lastly, I'm calling for 33% residential to meet the objective of 24/7 activation of area (and Greenway). The project proposes less than 20% residential use, over 50% office space. It's mindblowing that 20 years after the Central Artery was a known entity, after years and years of drafting BRA "public realm plans," and decades into a housing crisis, we are here with no goals, projections or benchmarks for residential density in these prime waterfront districts.

Why does the public have a stake in the outcome of a private parcel? Not to mention public investment in the Greenway and Harbor that raised all boats, this parcel was purchased with deed restrictions requiring significant public access on former tidelands. Chapter 91 was visionary in calling for intense civic and cultural activation of the waterfront... it's up to the BRA (and us) to see those uses achieving their greatest potential.

EDIT: typo at #2

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sicilian, excellent points.

I remember the tidal marsh at Fan Pier, and IIRC, it was carved from the existing land, and not built out into the harbor.

 

[greenwayguy1982]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Hey Rifleman (and anyone else mistakenly under the impression that the Garage site was to be the site of the 3rd Harbor Tower): you're wrong. The 3rd Harbor Tower was to be located on what is now Rowes Wharf...before the BRA came to their senses and stopped building towers on the waterfront.

 

[nm88]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Stellar and Sicilian, excellent points. You may remember the Pritzker/Athanas proposal for Fan Pier in the 80s that included the work of Gehry, Pelli, Stern and others. Look what we needed up with. Different circumstances. But attention needs to be paid.

 

[Scalziand]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Hey Rifleman (and anyone else mistakenly under the impression that the Garage site was to be the site of the 3rd Harbor Tower): you're wrong. The 3rd Harbor Tower was to be located on what is now Rowes Wharf...before the BRA came to their senses and stopped building towers on the waterfront.

Of course, there were limits to how big a chance the developers would take. Because they couldn’t be certain anyone would want to live out in the grubby hinterland that was the waterfront, three towers eventually became two, with a pool installed where the third was to have stood.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2008/01/the-harbor-towers-towering-contradictions/

Sounds like its closer to Rowes Wharf than the garage, but canceled because of money, not planning permission.

 

[stick n move]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The Woolworth is ornamental terracotta.

45 Province is not.
http://www.shildan.com/project/45-province-terracotta-rainscreen/

So is it your view that if 45 Province was replicated to 600 feet that would make it world class?

When did I say any of that I said dont knock terra cotta because it can be done very right. It can also be done very wrong, it all comes down to the developer not the material used. Dont put words in my mouth.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The HT were originally affordable rental housing. The conversion to condos did not occur until the 1980s. Renters had first option to buy, and they could buy their units quite inexpensively. That they were designed and constructed as affordable, rental housing may help explain the $75 million special assessment to replace the HVAC.

The current condo fee (includes utilities) for a 750 sq ft HT apartment is $6,000 a year. The fee for a 1,200 sq ft HT apartment is $18,000 a year. Condo fees/assessments are deductible only if the condo is a rental property.

 

[KentXie]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Hey Rifleman (and anyone else mistakenly under the impression that the Garage site was to be the site of the 3rd Harbor Tower): you're wrong. The 3rd Harbor Tower was to be located on what is now Rowes Wharf...before the BRA came to their senses and stopped building towers on the waterfront.

Yeah, I don't think so considering Russia Wharf was just completed a couple of years ago. Where were you when that was going up?

 

[nico]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Interesting, I always thought the 3rd tower was supposed to be built where the pool area is.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I am still a bit confused about Chapter 91 and how the garage site is a "landlocked tideland".

It is clearly filled tideland.

But it is not cut off from the harbor by a public way (at least not a street.) East India Row does not cut off the parcel. The only potential "public way" between the garage and the harbor is the Harborwalk -- does that qualify?

None of this would change whether Chapter 91 applies, I am just trying to understand what qualifies as "landlocked tideland".

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I am still a bit confused about Chapter 91 and how the garage site is a "landlocked tideland".

It is clearly filled tideland.

But it is not cut off from the harbor by a public way (at least not a street.) East India Row does not cut off the parcel. The only potential "public way" between the garage and the harbor is the Harborwalk -- does that qualify?

None of this would change whether Chapter 91 applies, I am just trying to understand what qualifies as "landlocked tideland".

The assessors map shows East India Row as a dogleg, running west-east from Atlantic Ave to the harbor edge of the HT property, and then north-south along the east side of the garage, connecting the Aquarium plaza with the HT land.

If the garage were further inland -- i.e., 250 feet or more -- from the harbor, then the existence/placement of East India Row would be sufficient to characterize the site as landlocked tideland.

The 250 foot criterion is what makes a major redevelopment of the garage parcel subject to Chapter 91..

As an aside, because HT was built on the site of Bulfinch's India Wharf (total length over 1300 feet) that went far out into the harbor, the HT land parcel boundaries shows they own submerged land extending into the harbor.

So it is very likely that there was never a wharf extending into the harbor where Chiofaro proposes to build his stairs to the sea.

 

[Padre Mike]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I checked the Boston Globe magazine section for Feb. 24, 1963. On page 22 there are 4 towers showing. None of them are being shown on India Wharf and the proposal predates Pei's involvement. All four were to be located on what is now Rowe's Wharf parcel, nearest to Northern Ave. Bridge. The present location of India Wharf, shows a low rise on that site, and then comes the Aquarium Wharf and then Long Wharf.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

If Chiofaro kept the current garage, reclad it with spiffy material, used it as a podium, built 35 stories on top, with a 50,000 sq ft floorplate, he gets 1.75 million gross sq ft of new building (450,000 sq ft more than what he presently proposes) with none of the cost of excavating deep into primordial muck for a new garage, he stays within the FAA limit, and he avoids the 50 percent open space requirement. But maybe he likes the conflict, and controversy, and pushing people's buttons, or maybe he took too many hits as a very undersized but very good Harvard linebacker.

I don't understand your logic on this comment? So if you were the developer you would just keep the garage and build 200ft on top of it and reclad it to make it look presentable. (I'm sure the developer can do this and make plenty of money) This theory of him keeping the garage as is- would be good for him and bad for everybody else. Including Harbor Tower residents.

The entire point of Chiofaro's project is to open up the ground level to the Pedestrians and make it have a warm feeling connecting the Waterfront to the Greenway. (This would benefit everybody and make the area more desirable)

It seems on what I have read is the developer wants to make a more exciting Greenway and this is the best location to make it happen.

Please enlighten me.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I don't understand your logic on this comment? So if you were the developer you would just keep the garage and build 200ft on top of it and reclad it to make it look presentable. (I'm sure the developer can do this and make plenty of money) This theory of him keeping the garage as is- would be good for him and bad for everybody else. Including Harbor Tower residents.

The entire point of Chiofaro's project is to open up the ground level to the Pedestrians and make it have a warm feeling connecting the Waterfront to the Greenway. (This would benefit everybody and make the area more desirable)

It seems on what I have read is the developer wants to make a more exciting Greenway and this is the best location to make it happen.

Please enlighten me.

1.) the existing garage is not 200 feet high. I said Chiofaro could put about 35 stories atop the existing garage. If he did that, he would top out at about 400 feet, and have 1.75 million sq ft of new construction.

2.) Chiofaro has not done any serious massing studies, including looking at alternatives, e.g., one tower instead of two.

3.) The sea, i.e., harbor, will not be visible from Atlantic Ave through his glass-framed arcade/pavillion/whatever. One will barely be able to see the east end, --beyond the skaters in the rink, beyond the push cart stalls, beyond the umbrellas, chairs, lounges, bronzen babes, let alone the harbor beyond.

4.) IMO, if he were seriously interested in a passageway between two towers 'being open to the sea' he would do just that: strip away the retail mall in iteration 1, the narrow, zig-zag route, IIRC, in iteration 2, or the indoor beach, Haymarket vendors, skating rink of the current iteration. Instead, his open to the sea has always been about collecting rents/fees from users of the space. That's within his right, but his priority is on commercial opportunity/profit, not in providing a vista.
_______________

As for cladding the garage, my favorite idea is to photoscreen on ceramic a version of this facade, with Don and da formah mayuh sitting on a bench next to each other, or perhaps playing bocce.

Or a cartoon version of the above if photorealism is a little too much.

One can do a lot of very interesting things with ceramic screen cladding.

So there, I've given the garage an exciting new face (or faces), saved Chiofaro $75 million by not having to excavate a new garage, let him start construction before 2022 when the HT easements expire, given him an additional 450,000 sq ft, and kept the height within the FAA cap. What's not to like?

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

No matter how you spin it. His glass-framed arcade/pavillion/ or whatever would be better than cladding the garage, with some photoscreen version of a mural.

That would be awful if Chiofaro kept the garage and photoscreened the cemet wall with a mural.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Glass arcade is a non-starter, MassDEP already signaled as much.

I mentioned that Chiofaro has not filed a project for approval, the current process is to win approval for massing. That's why developer (and BRA) ignores FAA/Massport guidelines already available to inform the project.

In other words, this is how slim becomes squat, with public support. Blame NIMBYs when height is cut down and base and/or girth expands. Seen this movie?

The shame of it all is that an MHP process is one of Boston's greatest opportunities to shape interior and exterior civic and cultural uses (and new exciting venues) along the waterfront.

 

[KentXie]

Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

1.) the existing garage is not 200 feet high. I said Chiofaro could put about 35 stories atop the existing garage. If he did that, he would top out at about 400 feet, and have 1.75 million sq ft of new construction.

2.) Chiofaro has not done any serious massing studies, including looking at alternatives, e.g., one tower instead of two.

3.) The sea, i.e., harbor, will not be visible from Atlantic Ave through his glass-framed arcade/pavillion/whatever. One will barely be able to see the east end, --beyond the skaters in the rink, beyond the push cart stalls, beyond the umbrellas, chairs, lounges, bronzen babes, let alone the harbor beyond.

4.) IMO, if he were seriously interested in a passageway between two towers 'being open to the sea' he would do just that: strip away the retail mall in iteration 1, the narrow, zig-zag route, IIRC, in iteration 2, or the indoor beach, Haymarket vendors, skating rink of the current iteration. Instead, his open to the sea has always been about collecting rents/fees from users of the space. That's within his right, but his priority is on commercial opportunity/profit, not in providing a vista.
_______________

As for cladding the garage, my favorite idea is to photoscreen on ceramic a version of this facade, with Don and da formah mayuh sitting on a bench next to each other, or perhaps playing bocce.

Or a cartoon version of the above if photorealism is a little too much.

One can do a lot of very interesting things with ceramic screen cladding.

So there, I've given the garage an exciting new face (or faces), saved Chiofaro $75 million by not having to excavate a new garage, let him start construction before 2022 when the HT easements expire, given him an additional 450,000 sq ft, and kept the height within the FAA cap. What's not to like?

Wait wait wait, I thought the goal was to demolish the garage so that there's a section in between the two towers that would open the way to the waterfront from the Greenway? It would not accomplish this by keeping the garage, thus the one important requirement is not fulfill. Dead on water.