BCEC expansion | Seaport

Arlington said:
How? Moscow real estate (and living costs) are roughly comparable to NYC, so the "value add" of a subway is roughly the same.
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Your answer is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP

NYC's total GDP is at the lowest estimate (Brookings) 133% higher than Moscow's and at the highest (PwC) 338% higher.

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-population-125.html

NYC is only 69.5% larger in population than Moscow.

Narrowing it down to just real estate prices in a certain central district of Moscow is not the true economic picture. I think it is pretty obvious that NYC is a far more economically efficient and powerful city than Moscow and a dollar spent there on rapid transit would probably be worth several in Moscow.
 
More to the point of this thread - - look at those numbers in the links provided regarding Boston vs. Moscow. Boston is off the charts per capita more economically powerful than Moscow and a mile of extra subway here would be FAR more valuable than there (even more so in the future when Russia's only real export - other than caviar and borscht - becomes less in demand).
 
NYC has "special" (read: corrupt) conditions that make it especially expensive. But the entire US is overpriced when it comes to transit expansion, as we can see right here in Boston.

I think the Spanish have something to learn from: it's a modern Western democracy that manages to build all kinds of infrastructure at drop dead cheap prices. And it's really high quality, too.
 
shmessy said:
Narrowing it down to just real estate prices in a certain central district of Moscow is not the true economic picture. I think it is pretty obvious that NYC is a far more economically efficient and powerful city than Moscow and a dollar spent there on rapid transit would probably be worth several in Moscow.
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Really? You're missing the point.

The point is that very little gets built in NYC because it's extremely expensive to build any sort of infrastructure. Moscow and NY have similar budgets - yet Moscow is able to build 150 new miles of subway in the next 6 years vs. maybe 10 miles in NYC between 1970 and 2020 (or whenever the 2nd Avenue line is due for completion - could be much later).

Your attitude - that any cost is worth it - contributes to this. If transit supporters like yourself were more skeptical about the amount of money going toward infrastructure construction in general, or subway construction in particular, applied pressure to build more efficiently, the cost to build something like the 2nd Avenue subway would come down. And with that extra money, NYC could build the many projects that it has written off due to lack of funds in recent years - subway connections to the airports; extension of the 7 line to NJ; the abandoned station at 42nd and 10th (or whatever avenue it was).

Playing the game of "who cares what it costs in NY - a dollar there creates more good than in Moscow" - misses the point entirely.
 
While I don't know the details of where the Subway extensions in Moscow are, large parts of Moscow were razed and rebuilt relatively recently, which also likely simplifies the process.
 
Hey now, don't forget about the (decade-late, $10bil over budget) East Side Access!

If transit supporters like yourself were more skeptical about the amount of money going toward infrastructure construction in general, or subway construction in particular, applied pressure to build more efficiently, the cost to build something like the 2nd Avenue subway would come down.
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I severely doubt this.

Transit supporters on the web tend to be the most cost-conscious people I know. We are always trying to figure out cost/benefit ratios.

Probably that's why they're on the web and not running things.

In practice, costs have more to do with politics, "legal graft", NIH syndrome, consultant-feeding, and maybe just plain old ignorance than anything that transit advocates can control.

At the Green Line forum we got to see some of that ignorance exposed, where top officials at the T revealed that they had no idea about the state-of-the-art in light rail. There are no consequences for failure, really, even when it explodes to the level of the Big Dig. (and lest it be forgotten, this is a problem common to all massive infrastructure projects, not just transit).
 
Matthew said:
NYC has "special" (read: corrupt) conditions that make it especially expensive. But the entire US is overpriced when it comes to transit expansion, as we can see right here in Boston.

I think the Spanish have something to learn from: it's a modern Western democracy that manages to build all kinds of infrastructure at drop dead cheap prices. And it's really high quality, too.
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I wish i could find the source, but it said that on the *ESSENTIALLY THE SAME* Tunnel Boring Machine (TBM), Spain managed to staff it with 1/2 or 1/3 the number of people, with the only conclusion being that the NYC had either featherbedders or needless supervisors and inspectors.

The over-staffing problems on US projects are then compounded by work rules--rules like (a real example from the LIRR) paying managers overtime when their subordinates are earning overtime *regardless of the number of hours the manager works*. So what you get is managers who clock in for 40 hours of work or less, but who in that time make sure to schedule their crew for maximum overtime. It is sick. Whether cast as theft from taxpayers or from facility-users, it is the crudest kind of deadweight loss on an economy--not unlike a tax on rental cars and room-nights to build a BCEC that has no proven ability to generate either (sapping the overnight visitor biz to payoff the construction interests to build a bigger Boat Show Barn that draws no overnight visitors)

Frustration with this is what drives swing voters to vote for Chris Christies and Mitt Romneys for Governor--who sadly have only the power to cancel and not to fix.

The real fix (in the Northeast) is going to have be with Democrats at all levels who understand that for progressive government to work, it has to be about public goods for *all* the people.
 
Frustration with this is what drives swing voters to vote for Chris Christies and Mitt Romneys for Governor--who sadly have only the power to cancel and not to fix.

The real fix (in the Northeast) is going to have be with Democrats at all levels who understand that for progressive government to work, it has to be about public goods for *all* the people.
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Chris Christie just redirected the money to his own personal corrupt cronies. What makes you think that this is just a "Democratic" problem? Republicans do it too. It's a politician problem.
 
Damnit. I knew this would happen when Christie was mentioned. This is about the BCEC and its planned expansion. Take this junk elsewhere.
 
Matthew said:
Chris Christie just redirected the money to his own personal corrupt cronies. What makes you think that this is just a "Democratic" problem? Republicans do it too. It's a politician problem.
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The Republican fix is generally bad for transit, that's all (except in Virginia where the swing voters wanted transit, and McConnell's income tax got it for them).

Democrats, sadly, can't seem to build a winning coalition that reigns in (or deals out) the gold-platers and featherbedders.
 
datadyne007 said:
Damnit. I knew this would happen when Christie was mentioned. This is about the BCEC and its planned expansion. Take this junk elsewhere.
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You could get us back on track if there were data you'd deign to share that proves that the BCEC is going to be value for money.

<crickets>
 
There is no "Republican fix" they just have their own pet projects and consultants to feed. NJ money went to widening Turnpike, for instance.

It really annoys me when I see someone who should know better claim that Republicans are somehow fiscally conservative. Nothing could be further from the truth.

And to bring it back around full circle, I think that convention centers like BCEC are yet another example of big infrastructure built for political purposes and footed by the taxpayer for no good reason.

Convention centers, in general, are a terrible way to "kickstart" a district with their massive footprint, blank walls, and deadness outside of actual convention times.

Track 61 is a red herring and it astonishes me that someone actually thought it could ever be suitable for passenger service. Seems like it was tossed into the mix a while back without any service planning foresight.
 
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itchy said:
Your attitude - that any cost is worth it - contributes to this.
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That's low. Show me where I have ever written ANYTHING close to that.

That's not my attitude at all - - and I've made that perfectly clear in my posts. Costs count. I am a CFP Investment Advisor business owner. If anyone is focused on costs and against waste and inefficiency in government (or ANYWHERE for that matter), I assure you, it is I.

If you want to have a grown up conversation, stop making made up claims about what I am saying - - or at least back up your statements with quotes from my posts substantiating evidence that I wrote anything close to what you are purporting.

All along, I have been writing that I do not know whether the BCEC is good value for the money. I DO know that what one poster kept writing (about Mass taxpayers having to foot the bill for the expansion) was patently false even after the truth was pointed out to him by 5 other posters here. What I wrote is that rapid transit infrastructure is a higher priority, in my opinion, than building convention centers.

How you somehow turned that into "any cost is worth it" is ridiculous.
 
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Most people on this board have no idea of Actual costs compared to estimated costs nor care. This is why the United States along with state pensions is in so much deep debt. Debt that probably can never be repaid. (but that is a whole other story)

Well planned Transit Grid: Given the maginitude of Boston, Cambridge Status I believe that a well planned Multi-Billion dollar Transit solution would be well worth the taxpayers of Mass and the city of Boston investment which would help ease massive traffic congestion off 93 and all the surrounding towns.

An environmentally cost efficient expansion of the hardrails running from Lynn to Quincy to help encourage cost savings incentives along with promoting the working commuters to take the hardrails to keep the Traffic flowing consistenly throughout the city.

Boston is in DIRE need of a much improved & expanded transits Grid.
This issue needs to be addressed now. Problems near Wellington and Sullivan, 99, 93, Seaport will only get worse as time goes on.

MBTA pension also needs to be investigated and audited that is whole other issue. Time to cut pensions & join the private sector into 401K.
 
TheRifleman said:
An environmentally cost efficient expansion of the hardrails running from Lynn to Quincy to help encourage cost savings incentives along with promoting the working commuters to take the hardrails to keep the Traffic flowing consistenly throughout the city.
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:confused:
 
Howie Carr on the BCEC / MCCA

http://howiecarrshow.com/put-microscope-on-mcca-next/

This is exactly the kind of "follow the money" analysis that I think best explains what's happening with the BCEC.

If these were private-sector jobs and meritocratic placements, I'd be more confident that people making between 100k and 300k were making decisions that were best for economic development and aimed at cutting losses pegged at $70m per year. As it is, these are not economists and subtle forecasters pushing this thing.

Instead, they seem to have the taxpayers on a treadmill of endless expansion which, for administering, they get to pay large salaries to growing phalanx of politically-connected people. Particularly now that the probation department is getting cleaned up.
 
Arlington said:
Howie Carr on the BCEC / MCCA

http://howiecarrshow.com/put-microscope-on-mcca-next/

This is exactly the kind of "follow the money" analysis that I think best explains what's happening with the BCEC.

If these were private-sector jobs and meritocratic placements, I'd be more confident that people making between 100k and 300k were making decisions that were best for economic development and aimed at cutting losses pegged at $70m per year. As it is, these are not economists and subtle forecasters pushing this thing.

Instead, they seem to have the taxpayers on a treadmill of endless expansion which, for administering, they get to pay large salaries to growing phalanx of politically-connected people. Particularly now that the probation department is getting cleaned up.
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I don't disagree with this analysis. But don't be fooled that this problem is confined to the public sector. This behavior is fundamentally a principal-agent problem that happens all the time in less competitive corporate sectors, especially with publicly owned companies.
 
BBJ Preview: How weak statistics, special interests and limited debate led to a $1B convention center bill

Boston Convention and Exhibition Center
MCCA Executive Director Jim Rooney received $374,120 in compensation, retirement benefits and expense reimbursements from the state in 2013. His salary and bonus at the MCCA alone were more than double what Gov. Deval Patrick received in pay last year.

Great Expectations: How weak statistics, special interests and limited debate led to a $1B convention center bill


Craig DouglasManaging Editor, Online & Research-
Boston Business Journal

This week, Massachusetts lawmakers approved a plan to borrow $1 billion to build a 1.3 million-square-foot addition to the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center in South Boston. If all goes as anticipated, the legislation will be signed into law by Gov. Deval Patrick by July 31, making it the state’s single-largest capital investment project since the completion of the spending bonanza forever known as the Big Dig.

One would think state lawmakers had learned their lesson when it comes to accepting the sort of weak financial analysis, dubious assumptions and nuanced contracting language that led to the Big Dig’s billions in cost overruns. But they haven’t.

A Boston Business Journal analysis of the convention-center legislation highlights a billion-dollar spending effort dogged by questionable statistics, pandering to special interests and limited debate. Specifically, it promises to consolidate millions in new tax revenue and potentially thousands of new state jobs under the control of the Massachusetts Convention Center Authority and its executive director, Jim Rooney, whose total compensation from the state was approximately $374,000 last year after accounting for his salary ($257,525), bonuses ($25,752), pension payments ($68,000) and expense reimbursements ($22,843).

The BCEC expansion also promises to cost the commonwealth and its taxpayers more than what’s been advertised. That’s the consensus from the state Treasurer’s office, and that’s the consensus among the few policy analysts who have taken the time to study the legislation and stress-test the expansion plan’s primary funding mechanism, the state’s Convention and Exhibition Center Fund.

In tomorrow's print edition, the Boston Business Journal breaks down the forecasts and rationale behind the convention center expansion in light of the broader economic trends battering the convention center industry as a whole. We also break down Rooney's compensation and expense reimbursements, many of which counter the rules governing travel and lodging that apply to all employees of the commonwealth. At right is a slide show highlighting a number of themes in tomorrow's story package.
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http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/b...ak-statistics-special-interests.html?page=all

This is possibly the biggest waste of Taxpayers money since the BIG DIG. At least invest this billion dollars in Taxpayers money in TRANSIT first.
A billion dollar convention center located on the SILVER LINE. GREAT IDEA for the politically incompetent.
 
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