BCEC expansion | Seaport

[BostonDrew]

Request for Proposals issued for new master plan for the 70 acre complex:

http://wf.massconvention.com/rfpnew/default.aspx

More details shared in the Boston Globe article
http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2017/08/02/convention-center-authority-weighs-expansion-again/Voa0IezjpNzGcUdxrUkQ9L/story.html

 

[JumboBuc]

Globe: Baker wants to sell Hynes to help fund South Boston convention center expansion

Baker wants to sell Hynes to help fund South Boston convention center expansion - The Boston Globe

The governor’s plan is a scaled-down version of a proposal he shelved four years ago.

www.bostonglobe.com

Interesting idea. The Hynes is out of date and losing money, while the BCEC is turning a profit. Baker wants to sell the Hynes and put that money into a BCEC expansion.

I'd love to see a mockup of what a private developer could do with the Hynes parcel / air rights. Cue odur and his supertall in 3, 2, 1...

 

[Equilibria]

Globe: Baker wants to sell Hynes to help fund South Boston convention center expansion

Baker wants to sell Hynes to help fund South Boston convention center expansion - The Boston Globe

The governor’s plan is a scaled-down version of a proposal he shelved four years ago.

www.bostonglobe.com

Interesting idea. The Hynes is out of date and losing money, while the BCEC is turning a profit. Baker wants to sell the Hynes and put that money into a BCEC expansion.

I'd love to see a mockup of what a private developer could do with the Hynes parcel / air rights. Cue odur and his supertall in 3, 2, 1...

Height limits allow 1,000' there, but I'd be worried about a net loss in terms of streetwall. Any tower would logically be on the terra firma (essentially across the street from the Dalton Garage) and the developer would likely try to avoid doing much on air rights. They could end up tearing the whole thing down and leaving us with a 900 foot tower and a gap just like the one Weiner failed to fill next door.

The ideal thing would be some sort of low-rise sweeping into high-rise combo, with the low-rise built on the existing piers or even re-using some of the Hynes's structure.

 

[Arlington]

I went to HubSpot's annual user conference last week. Cambridge-based HubSpot makes SaaS for marketing sales and support, and attracts users from all over the world.

They only used Hall A (exibitors) and Hall B (big speeches), and the breakout rooms on all three levels. But they did not use Hall C at all.

Rather than use any more space in the convention center, they used food trucks on the lawn on D, and then made extensive use of meeting rooms and ballrooms in the hotels on the Westin side.

What is the latest version of expansion plans?

It seems to me that the convention center could use something that would allow it to host two "half" events simultaneously (such as an alternative entrance on the south or west for smaller events)

Or two large events in quick succession?

But rather than extending South maybe it needs a second venue on Summer Street atop where the MBTA trains drivers and the Post Office Park sits trucks?

 

[Arlington]

Cue Odur and his supertall in 3, 2, 1...

..and he'd be 100% x 1000 feet correct to propose a supertall on the Hynes site!

 

[Gameguy326]

But the Hynes gets constant usage. It brings people to the city. It is a net positive?

My god, is it so much to ask to have both?? God forbid we tap any of our revenue for public improvement works in this state!

I would also prefer the city NOT getting the parcel back, because you know that will be instant development. If that happens the BCEC will be unable to expand again -- even if it needs to.

Honestly, pretty upset we are not getting the larger expansion out the gate.

 

[Arlington]

God forbid we tap any of our revenue for public improvement works in this state!

We're tapping "our revenue" for lots of improvements all over. The question is (a) prioritization and (b) useful life. What's the case for doing $200m here? The question isn't "would it be nice to have", but rather "is this the best we can do with $200m (and whatever the value of the lot is worth)

Via WBUR:

The Hynes opened in 1963 and was rebuilt in 1988. The Baker administration said the Back Bay facility would need about $200 million in capital investments over the next decade just to maintain its current state.

The systems in Hynes are 1988--31 years old (and 5 years older than the last time they were redone). Two convention centers is just strange. If we're going to be spending $200m on systems for 200k worth of convention space, it makes way more sense to do it at the BCEC, where it creates flexibility and economy of scale.

 

[Gameguy326]

Two convention centers may seem strange, but Hynes is in an exceptionally good location. Moreover, it is constantly booked: https://www.signatureboston.com/events

If Hynes is not making revenue, to me, that sounds like we have a management problem, not a venue problem.

31 is not old for a building. If we tore down every 31 year old building and declared it useless...

 

[TallIsGood]

31 is not old for a building. If we tore down every 31 year old building and declared it useless...

Building is 56 years old. Last reno 31 years ago. It’s not that old but does need repairs and renovations again. Question is whether the $200m is better spent elsewhere.

 

[Equilibria]

Two convention centers may seem strange, but Hynes is in an exceptionally good location. Moreover, it is constantly booked: https://www.signatureboston.com/events

If it's constantly booked and we have a management problem, a private operator should be chomping at the bit to buy it (and perhaps put a tower above it anyway). Back Bay doesn't lack for private ballrooms...

 

[tangent]

Building is 56 years old. Last reno 31 years ago. It’s not that old but does need repairs and renovations again. Question is whether the $200m is better spent elsewhere.

Not the only question, because the state is also going to have to spend money at BCEC to expand and will presumably make about 8% less revenue overall even after that expansion because of less floor overall space, and would lose out on several years of conventions after sale of the Hynes and during the construction. I would have to take a look at their revenue projections with and without Hynes to see whether $10 million (plus interest) a year over twenty years makes sense for that facility or is better spent expanding BCEC. To understand if the state was getting a good deal or not I would have to do a differential analysis between the two options, look at real estate prices and consider alternatives. Somewhere in there is a breakeven number with risks that they get even less than 8% less because Hynes is a better location for smaller conventions, meetings and events and risks that the construction on the new facility goes long and risk that the contract with the new developer isn't iron clad with clawbacks and escrows and you get another shake down scenario where they are looking for subsidies to build over the Pike to replace the big hole in the city they just made.

Then you need to look at the bigger revenue picture because the city is going to get more property tax revenue if Hynes is privately owned or redeveloped, so it would be good to include state and local revenue projections in the analysis. Unless the state releases more numbers then it is hard to validate their assumptions or come to an informed opinion.

 

[Rover]

As as Mass taxpayer I'd like to see the state maximize the revenue from selling this site. To that end Good Time Charlie Baker and state legislature need to pass a law governing the sale of the Hynes that stipulates potential developers are permitted to build up to FAA limits and that this overrides any other city and state requirements (shadows, wind, butthurt NIMBY's, etc). Yes, the usual payoff of the vig would happen on some level but we should be able to avoid a developer proposing 500 ft and then chopping off 150 ft at the first objection from the usual suspects.

 

[Gameguy326]

Good point tangent. I think I just get frustrated that the money was there for expanidng the BCEC, Charlie Baker did a bullshit "oh look at me I'm responsible thing," ordered a new study that took FIVE YEARS (!!!!!!) and as far as I can tell is not public.

I am frustrated by this administration because the Patrick administration set the stage for T and exhibition center expansions that the Baker administration has largely quashed in the name of "fiscal responsibility" --- without explaining the whos, whats, whys, or hows of those decisions (which largely seem to be more political than anything).

 

[Arlington]

It is quite possible that the state could sell the hynes convention center and know how much money was in the budget for the bcec, but actually retain possession of the Hines for some interim period.

The length of the interim could be determined by a mix of how long the HCC systems last, how long the expanded BCEC takes, and what kind of convention revenue versus leaseback costs are at stake.

 

[JeffDowntown]

My experience is the Hynes and BCEC service two very different kinds of conventions.

Hynes is more likely to service professional meetings, like medical conferences. Smaller crowd, limited trade show, easily accommodated in the hotels that are indoor connected. These work very well in the Hynes, and because of the indoor connections can occur comfortably year-round (not something Boston is known for!). Boston draws a lot of these conferences because of our huge healthcare and life sciences cluster.

BCEC is more likely to host larger, commercial trade show type conventions where a large trade show floor is needed. There is also use of conference facilities, but the big draw is the large hall for the trade show. Busing delegates is almost always needed, and it makes the conventions less "convenient" (and less attractive in the winter).

Both facilities seem essential to the health of the meetings business economy in the area.

 

[whighlander]

Building is 56 years old. Last reno 31 years ago. It’s not that old but does need repairs and renovations again. Question is whether the $200m is better spent elsewhere.

NO -- Hynes is 31 years old -- Officially the New Hynes Convention Center is just a reconstruction of the old John Hynes Veterans [War] Memorial Auditorium -- that was to meet some bond covenants

The reality was that they leveled the old building except for one [perhaps 2 or 3] forlorn column in a rather unimportant corner

There was some minor work done when the various components of the Pru Center were linked by the "City Under Glass" arcades and again later when 111 Huntington and the Belvidere were built and even some work when Etaly was being constructed

Note from the above photo -- while a tower on the site might sound inviting -- its almost all on air rights suspended over the Pike and the Worcester Rail Line

 

[whighlander]

My experience is the Hynes and BCEC service two very different kinds of conventions.

Hynes is more likely to service professional meetings, like medical conferences. Smaller crowd, limited trade show, easily accommodated in the hotels that are indoor connected. These work very well in the Hynes, and because of the indoor connections can occur comfortably year-round (not something Boston is known for!). Boston draws a lot of these conferences because of our huge healthcare and life sciences cluster.

BCEC is more likely to host larger, commercial trade show type conventions where a large trade show floor is needed. There is also use of conference facilities, but the big draw is the large hall for the trade show. Busing delegates is almost always needed, and it makes the conventions less "convenient" (and less attractive in the winter).

Both facilities seem essential to the health of the meetings business economy in the area.

Jeff that's the argument that used to be made when there were no hotels close to the BCEC except the Seaport

Now when the new Omni is completed there will be nearly 2000 rooms directly connected to the BCEC with at least 5 other hotels of various sizes and costs located within an easy walk -- that could handle all of the small size events with a wing devoted to such [small exhibition floor, lots of break-out rooms, small auditorium] and a huge ballroom which is currently missing from Boston.

You might then be able to hold 2 or even 3 events in the same building -- that is what is usually done in most convention centers around the world

For the really Big events you need to use dedicated buses as there is no way that you could handle 20,000 plus meeting attendees [500 booths] using the T even if there was the necessary infrastructure

 

[SlothofDespond]

I'm surprised the Hynes isn't doing well. It always seems busy and even for a 30 year old venue it's quite nice inside (has it really not been at least updated a bit over the years? it's being maintained well, at least). I've been to a couple health care conferences there and thought it was a great venue in a great location. It doesn't have the type of massive floor space as the BCEC but for events that need lots of simultaneous breakout sessions it certainly works well.

 

[stellarfun]

As whigh pointed out, and as the Globe article noted, the Hynes straddles the MassPike. That will discourage any developer from thinking supertall.

Besides, this cycle appears to be winding down on luxury residential.

A quarter of the new condos built since 2013 in New York City have not yet found buyers, according to a new analysis of closed sales.

One in Four of New York’s New Luxury Apartments Is Unsold (Published 2019)

A quarter of the new condos built since 2013 in New York City have not yet found buyers, according to a new analysis of closed sales.

www.nytimes.com

Eastbanc founder and CEO Anthony Lanier, who has been one of D.C.'s most prominent condo developers for the last 30 years, said he is no longer bullish on the for-sale market and is shifting his focus to apartments. "This will definitely be my last condo project," Lanier told Bisnow Monday morning before a luxury real estate market event held at the Westlight building. "I said, 'Shoot me if I build another one.' I just think it's an overvalued business model and the D.C. market doesn't provide enough margins for the condo developer." The Westlight building features 71 condo units and 93 apartments. Lanier said the rental component leased up in nine months, but the condos will take over three years to sell out.

Read more at: https://www.bisnow.com/washington-d...00734?utm_source=CopyShare&utm_medium=Browser

 

[DZH22]

As whigh pointed out, and as the Globe article noted, the Hynes straddles the MassPike. That will discourage any developer from thinking supertall.

If anything, it SHOULD go supertall. (or at least 850'-900', but really why stop there?) It will finally prove that air rights projects ARE still feasible around here, as long as the height is available to offset the extra construction costs. Then we'll get our true high spine, right over the pike.