Blue Line extension to Lynn

Regarding rapid transit vs. commuter rail for long routes, I think rapid transit is appropriate as long as it's heavy rail, and not light rail. The Blue Line cars are heavy rail, whereas the D Line cars are light rail. The light rail cars on the Riverside line were originally intended to be temporary, to be replaced by a westward extension of the Blue Line or a branch of the Orange Line.
 
As someone who lives near Riverside, I feel I have to weigh in here. I like the line the way it is (heavy rail might be a little faster but would never get approved - this line is literally in some peoples' backyards). What the D-Line lacks in speed to downtown it makes up in the utility it provides Newton residents. While outbound service is no longer free above ground (the T used the Charlie Card installation to sneak that in...), it is a fairly quick and easy way through the city, since it basically goes from end to end.

An express track would be lovely, as would removing the stupid pedestrian crossing before Chestnut Hill so the trains can actually run at speed. Nonetheless, I like the idea of providing more of these intracity light rail connections to the close-in suburbs. Lynn may not benefit this way, since the Blue Line would make basically a single stop there, but projects like extending the Orange Line to 128 through Dedham or running the Red Line through Lexington to Burlington would provide the same service to those communities that the D-Line gives Newton and the Red Line gives Quincy.

Riverside currently offers two close quicker connections to Downtown: the express 600 bus and commuter rail service at either Auburndale or Wellesley Farms (the T consistently dismisses the notion of a commuter rail stop at Riverside itself as a low priority). There are available options for going to Downtown more rapidly. I would expect that the majority of people on the D-Line are not going to Downtown but rather to other parts of Newton, Brookline, and Longwood/Fenway.

I, for one, think the line has great utility as is.
 
Riverworks said:
With the new courthouse in the works, and money for a transportation center in the future, I think Salem would make an ideal terminus. But i'm afraid that too much ridership would be taken away from the commuter rail if the Blue Line were to intervene. Maybe the commuter rail could run express to Lynn and Chelsea only then on to North Station, while the Blue Line services Swampscott, Market Sq in Lynn, and on to Wonderland... the options are limitless since so little has been done in the past.
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There is no space in Salem to have it be the terminus for the Blue Line, unless you placed it in South Salem which is not near downtown nor near the existing commuter rail station and the future big MBTA parking garage. Salem has a one track tunnel for commuter rail under downtown, and the existing commuter rail station is wedged in to a piece of land bounded by a large inlet, major roads, and private and government buildings.

A few years ago, there was a proposal kicked about to have Salem be the terminus for the Newburyport and Rockport commuter rail lines, and commuters would transfer to the Blue Line terminus in Salem. As part of the proposal, the Blue Line would follow the existing commuter rail tracks from Salem to near Bell Circle in Revere, then follow an old right-of-way on the east side of Chelsea Creek (?) and link up with the current Blue Line in East Boston near where the new Big Dig park was built.
 
The entire green line used to be free going outbound, starting above ground. Wasn't it more a matter of convenience for the T? All of the doors had to be opened for disembarking commuters (to keep things running smoothly), so they figured people would manage to sneak on anyway. Or at least that was my interpretation. Fortunately for Newton residents, the implementation of the Charlie Card system meant a flat fare - it used to be 2x the price all the way to Chestnut Hill.
 
The basic issue here is that the commuter rail system is a better service for people who primarily travel inter-city and the light/heavy rail system is a better service for people who primarily travel intra-city. The question then is, are the people of Lynn and Salem looking primarily for inter- or intra-city travel? I haven't seen any studies on this, but my gut reaction is that they'd be on the inter- side of things.

Now, if the real issue here is that people from Salem and Lynn want more reliable or more frequent service, then that's a completely different problem. Furthermore, it's one that won't be solved by extending the Blue Line. Instead, the solution would be for the MBCR to clean up it's act, run it's trains on time, and introduce more trips (I know MBCR's track record doesn't make this seem likely).
 
czsz said:
Outbound travel on the D line within Newton is actually free (or was, the last time I checked) to incentivize travel. I wonder if this says anything about people needing to commute from Newton Centre to Riverside or whatever. I would guess this traffic is minimal.
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jass said:
2006 would like to have a word with you. Thats when that policy ended
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Well, so much for considering Brookline, Newton, Allston, Brighton as places to live now. ;)


underground--I have friends who live in the Salem/Peabody and Newburyport areas, all of whom now work in Lynn when their small companies relocated from Boston, Cambridge, and inside 128. I suspect it would benefit the city of Lynn even more to have multi-faceted, streamlined commuting options serving the coastal North Shore communities.

The city seemed to be attempting, after many false starts, to create a commercial back-office center in or near the edge of downtown that could lure companies away from traditional office parks as well as Boston or Cambridge. It has been a few years since I saw some studies. Therefore, I'm not sure if this plan has progressed further.

Anyway, given the above, I don't see why all options--existing commuter rail with an extra station plus a blue line extension north, beyond Lynn--wouldn't be feasible and necessary, at least for the city of Lynn's future. I think Lynn is big enough and has the potential for growth that it should be its own transportation hub as a gateway to the North Shore.
 
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underground said:
The question then is, are the people of Lynn and Salem looking primarily for inter- or intra-city travel? I haven't seen any studies on this, but my gut reaction is that they'd be on the inter- side of things.
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My gut would tell me they're more intra-city, or at least are looking for a quick shot to Logan for any inter-city travel they'd do. Most of the people I knew wanted it for intra-city travel, anyhow.
 
I don't understand why they want to expand so far north. Roslindale and Hyde Park are part of the Boston we don't even have a fully functional transit system. Forest Hills is on the JP/Roslindale border. Why don't they expand orange to Dedham and pass through HP and Roslindale?
________
portable vaporizer
 
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Didn't W. Roxbury and Hyde Park shoot down the OL in the 70s? Lynn has been promised the Blue Line since the 50s and has nothing to show.
 
Salem has one of the highest ridership counts on the whole commuter rail system, with over 2,000 daily boardings. That's one reason why a parking garage is a priority project for this station, given that riders now park their cars up to a half mile away (for free) as the current surface lot fills to capacity early. There is less intra-city between Salem and Lynn than there is between Salem and other cities at the northern end of the Rockport and Newburyport lines, and I'm pretty sure the latter is related to Salem being the county seat and students commuting to Salem State College.
 
I made a quick video about the BLX to Lynn, tonight. If everyone could take a look and give a thumbs^ that'd be much appreciated.

It was only a couple hours of work tossed together. I hope to have a whole series of videos to inform and advocated for better rapid transit in the Boston area. I missed a few notes about the BLX but hope to account for everything in a follow up video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMUP2VJ6ZAE


Thanks. :)
 
I wonder if there is enough people at Oak Island or Point of Pines for a station, or if they would even want one. I have the feeling the people in P of P would protest.
 
gooseberry said:
I wonder if there is enough people at Oak Island or Point of Pines for a station, or if they would even want one. I have the feeling the people in P of P would protest.
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I, too, would have to guess that PoP would be against it, I get the feeling it's a bit more wealthy and auto-friendly than Oak Island. But in either place, there is great opportunity for TOD. You can't build out, but you can build up, that's for sure. Just take a look at Revere Beach Blvd. Steps from rapid transit and an improving beach? Sounds pretty sweet. Pack in some pretty large mixed use development in either and that'd be some pretty sweet TOD. I'm sure developers would be swooping in to buy out the neighborhood.
 
BTW, just want to say to those people who advocate for a Red-Blue connector BEFORE an extension to Lynn (myself included)... wouldn't the extension to Lynn only put more pressure on the powers-that-be to realize the Red-Blue is necessary? There would be many more people clammering for ease of transfer and much more volume. Otherwise, if you build the Red-Blue first, they're much more likely to say "we don't have money" for the other project.
 
If the current state of affairs in the downtown transfer station quadrangle isn't enough to get them speeding through a process to ease congestion, I don't think building something that only exacerbates the situation makes a lot of sense. The volume is already there (as evidences by how overloaded Government Center and Park Street aree).

I'd love to see both happen but I see connecting the Blue Line to Charles/MGH as much, much higher priority.
 
gooseberry said:
I wonder if there is enough people at Oak Island or Point of Pines for a station, or if they would even want one. I have the feeling the people in P of P would protest.
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Oak Island should, especially with the elderly and Kelly's being down the street and it already being an enclave of decent size...plus it's a long stretch between Wonderland and Lynn so a stop here would be ideal.

Point of Pines itself...no real need frankly. It's too sparsely populated and it's a driving neighborhood whose residents really shouldn't be irked at going to Wonderland for transit connections.
 
EdFindlay said:
Oak Island should, especially with the elderly and Kelly's being down the street and it already being an enclave of decent size...plus it's a long stretch between Wonderland and Lynn so a stop here would be ideal.

Point of Pines itself...no real need frankly. It's too sparsely populated and it's a driving neighborhood whose residents really shouldn't be irked at going to Wonderland for transit connections.
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I took a trip through PoP just yesterday as I'm going to be in the market for a house, and my opinion is that the waystation would get more service in PoP than Oak Island. The roads are all narrow (few places to park), and if you live on the north side of the peninsula, you have to rely on the light at Mills Ave to get in and out, or drive around on the offramps on the east side to turn around. Eyeballing it in Google Maps, it also looks like it has more population density than Oak Island.

If you're going with the Eastern route on the narrow gauge, I'd be fine with both stops but if you had to pick one, I think PoP wins.

On the topic, as I've been doing a lot of reading on the subject, I read somewhere referencing the Lynn Item that in 2009, Lynn and McGee had secured $270M in bonds funds to assist in the project. It's unclear if that included the 2004 $246M the Commonwealth had budgeted toward the proposal or if it's independent. If not, then what happened here? The pricing on the extension was estimated at $400M for the Eastern route, and it's only going to get more expensive as time and inflation carry on.

So, is there anything still blocking this project other than the MBTA's debt and single-minded focus on New Bedford?
 
Cutriss said:
I took a trip through PoP just yesterday as I'm going to be in the market for a house, and my opinion is that the waystation would get more service in PoP than Oak Island. The roads are all narrow (few places to park), and if you live on the north side of the peninsula, you have to rely on the light at Mills Ave to get in and out, or drive around on the offramps on the east side to turn around. Eyeballing it in Google Maps, it also looks like it has more population density than Oak Island.


If you're going with the Eastern route on the narrow gauge, I'd be fine with both stops but if you had to pick one, I think PoP wins.
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I was considering this as an alternative the other day...Mills at North Shore Road is the last place before the developers grabbed the former right of way for their own land(legally? illegally?), has a break in the road where there is a turnaround for cars using Mills Ave., and if they build along the property lines of the houses along Mills Ave. they avoid the problems with

crossing 1A near the fire station. This would allow them to connect with the old Narrow Guage right of way where it crosses the Pines...but at the same time it also puts in another problem: the new bridge would have to be a draw bridge causing some problems. Same would be if they cut across the Pines River at Mills Ave. but would not be a problem if the crossing is just south of York Street.

My question about this is how will Oak Island Street get realligned because the line can't get extended without Oak Island Street continuing as a cross street between Revere Beach Blvd. and North Shore Road.

Regarding the neighborhood, it's more spread out than Oak Island over a wider area. It might be a good spot for an intermediate station simply due to having to slow down anyway to access a new bridge over the river.

On the topic, as I've been doing a lot of reading on the subject, I read somewhere referencing the Lynn Item that in 2009, Lynn and McGee had secured $270M in bonds funds to assist in the project. It's unclear if that included the 2004 $246M the Commonwealth had budgeted toward the proposal or if it's independent. If not, then what happened here? The pricing on the extension was estimated at $400M for the Eastern route, and it's only going to get more expensive as time and inflation carry on.

So, is there anything still blocking this project other than the MBTA's debt and single-minded focus on New Bedford?
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This happened: http://www.itemlive.com/articles/2010/09/24/news/news01.txt

One of the things that sticks out is the fight over the allignment, which I strongly believe Revere is behind both for being blamed as the ones who allowed the building of condos on the right of way and for the insistance on not extending in favor of the commuter rail.
 
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Former Lynn mayor Thomas Costin quipped that 63 years ago he was 21 and was hearing from government officials that the Blue Line was coming to Lynn.

"We're still talking about it," he said.
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Ha Ha. Yes we will all be long dead before any extension of the T happens.
 
EdFindlay said:
This happened: http://www.itemlive.com/articles/2010/09/24/news/news01.txt
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Well, I got that much. Of course, I was never disappointed in Mullan expecting him to carry out projects. Time will tell if Davey as a replacement will fare any better though, I'm hoping so.
EdFindlay said:
One of the things that sticks out is the fight over the allignment, which I strongly believe Revere is behind both for being blamed as the ones who allowed the building of condos on the right of way and for the insistance on not extending in favor of the commuter rail.
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So I'm kinda new to rail tech, and endlessly geeking out over all this, so I'm curious how this works (and in the case of Green Line/Fitchburg as well). If the rapid lines use the existing rails, then how does the CR handle that? Don't they need rather precise timing in order to operate interspersed like that? I mean, the train's still going to go to North Station I'm sure, making the terminus in Wonderland would mean CR users that transfer to the Green/Orange would be disenfranchised.

I had initially taken it to mean that the land required for the rails would be built upon separately to add subway tracks, but in many of the cases (for example, Fitchburg), I just don't see where there'd be room, so if someone could explain that for me, I'd be appreciative.
 
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