Blue Line extension to Lynn

[BostonUrbEx]

The Fitchburg does have room for the 4 tracks necessary up to Union Square. Union Square will be tight though, as the station will require what is essentially the width of 5 or 6 tracks. They have to buy a property or two in order to secure the land for the station there. But other than that, it's a mere slight shift of the commuter rail tracks to the south and the elimination of a freight siding.

I haven't seen any diagrams at all on how the Blue Line would parallel the commuter rail, but it will definitely have it's own two dedicated tracks. My guess is they will run along the eastern side of the commuter rail, requiring the commuter tracks to be shifted west by one "track" from the Saugus River (or from where they join if they go with BRB&L route) to Central Square. The station for Central Square probably has to be elevated over the current station.

 

[EdFindlay]

Well, I got that much. Of course, I was never disappointed in Mullan expecting him to carry out projects. Time will tell if Davey as a replacement will fare any better though, I'm hoping so.So I'm kinda new to rail tech, and endlessly geeking out over all this, so I'm curious how this works (and in the case of Green Line/Fitchburg as well). If the rapid lines use the existing rails, then how does the CR handle that? Don't they need rather precise timing in order to operate interspersed like that? I mean, the train's still going to go to North Station I'm sure, making the terminus in Wonderland would mean CR users that transfer to the Green/Orange would be disenfranchised.

I had initially taken it to mean that the land required for the rails would be built upon separately to add subway tracks, but in many of the cases (for example, Fitchburg), I just don't see where there'd be room, so if someone could explain that for me, I'd be appreciative.

What I was talking about was an alternative that was being offered as an option for the extention: building a Wonderland Commuter Rail station hence the mention of the commuter rail.

The mayor favored this over any extention and the delays in picking a routing can be tied in with his adament support of the station over the extention.

 

[EdFindlay]

The Fitchburg does have room for the 4 tracks necessary up to Union Square. Union Square will be tight though, as the station will require what is essentially the width of 5 or 6 tracks. They have to buy a property or two in order to secure the land for the station there. But other than that, it's a mere slight shift of the commuter rail tracks to the south and the elimination of a freight siding.

I haven't seen any diagrams at all on how the Blue Line would parallel the commuter rail, but it will definitely have it's own two dedicated tracks. My guess is they will run along the eastern side of the commuter rail, requiring the commuter tracks to be shifted west by one "track" from the Saugus River (or from where they join if they go with BRB&L route) to Central Square. The station for Central Square probably has to be elevated over the current station.

Oak Island Street would require land taking if the routing joined the commuter rail near there, but otherwise the rest of Revere into Lynn it is a wide right of way due to the marsh.

At GE the right of way supports at least four tracks the entire length including four tracks on the Commercial Street, Shepard Street, Blossom Street, Pleasant Street, and Market Street overpasses.

They have no choice but to elevate the station at Central Square, either that or they put it in the old commuter rail station but this also puts it two blocks away from the busway...not really a problem as there can be a bus stop at the station itself but might be inconvenient to a few.

 

[whighlander]

Check out the new Cassino Bill

It allows for 3 sites -- 1 in the eastern part of the state and only 1 bid-out slot parlor

The political alignments are such that for Speaka DaLira to endorse it -- the fix must be in in for either Wonderland or sulfolk Downs

My guess is there will be a major hotel cassino developed at Wonderland with a rebuilt T station and an extension to Lynn and beyond built by the casino developer (at least in part) to allow customers from the North & North East easy access

 

[EdFindlay]

Check out the new Cassino Bill

It allows for 3 sites -- 1 in the eastern part of the state and only 1 bid-out slot parlor

The political alignments are such that for Speaka DaLira to endorse it -- the fix must be in in for either Wonderland or sulfolk Downs

My guess is there will be a major hotel cassino developed at Wonderland with a rebuilt T station and an extension to Lynn and beyond built by the casino developer (at least in part) to allow customers from the North & North East easy access

Suffolk gets one of the resorts, Wonderland gets one of slot parlors as has been the plan for a long time. The entire area coincidentally will be put into the speaker's district soon due to the redistricting of house and senate seats.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The Fitchburg does have room for the 4 tracks necessary up to Union Square. Union Square will be tight though, as the station will require what is essentially the width of 5 or 6 tracks. They have to buy a property or two in order to secure the land for the station there. But other than that, it's a mere slight shift of the commuter rail tracks to the south and the elimination of a freight siding.

I haven't seen any diagrams at all on how the Blue Line would parallel the commuter rail, but it will definitely have it's own two dedicated tracks. My guess is they will run along the eastern side of the commuter rail, requiring the commuter tracks to be shifted west by one "track" from the Saugus River (or from where they join if they go with BRB&L route) to Central Square. The station for Central Square probably has to be elevated over the current station.

Union's got very ample room. In addition to being a 4-track ROW the boundaries aren't well-defined in spots because they've let some embankments decay over the years (far enough from the mainline tracks to be a non-factor). It'll look a lot wider than it does now on exactly the same footprint when they do retaining wall construction for the extension. The line doesn't narrow at all from full 4-track width until the Beacon St. bridge. They'd have to do a duck-under tunnel sliding underneath the CR platforms if they ever extended to Porter, but that's it. Actually the bandied-about proposal from Cambridge and Somerville to deck over the canyon for air rights from Beacon St. to Porter would require lowering the grade of the tracks a couple feet and reconstructing retaining walls, which would be the perfect time to package in such a GL extension.


On the Eastern Route the marsh embankment would have to be widened as it was never more than 2 tracks. That is the single iffiest part of the EIS for the "preferred" alternative route and why it's premature to call the BRB&L the #2 alternative. GE used to have a whole yard's worth of tracks feeding it so there's all the room in the world on that side of the river to do whatever they want. Eastern Route used to be 4-track from there up to south Salem, and all bridges to Lynn station already have 4 decks. Station itself is the only place requiring land-taking, since that's not the station's original location and it's only as wide as the former 4 mainline tracks.

Actually, if you ever wanted to later extend the line to South Salem they wouldn't have to do much of anything to the ROW except re-deck berths 3 & 4 on the Chatham St. bridge, re-make Swampscott station on wider footprint, replace the Burrill St. bridge with a 4-tracker (newer bridge rebuilt as 2-track), and re-establishing the property lines with culvert work along the Forest River conservation land where they've let the embankment sides go back to nature. Otherwise it's already graded out at full-4 to the former yard south of the tunnel portal. It's probably a significantly less expensive project to build from Lynn to South Salem than Wonderland to Lynn because of negligible EIS'ing, very little bridge work, and no water crossings. All the more reason to get to Lynn in the first place while it's still accomplishable for under $1B.


Re: the property encroachment by the condos in Revere. I don't believe it's actually sitting on top of the ROW and outright blocking it from use...that would be over-the-top illegal as opposed to just illegal-illegal. But it's as close as a structure can physically get, constrains operations, and definitely makes a mockery of property lines. To traverse that they'd probably have to build an at-grade box tunnel through the shared back driveway a la the D line at Brookline Village and plop parking on top of it. Both so the building doesn't lose parking and driveway access and for noise abatement. A groaner that it would even come to that, but surface box tunnels aren't nearly in the same cost universe as outright buried subways and they might not have a choice if the EIS thumbs-downed the Eastern Route embankment. At least it's physically possible, if a very unpleasant scenario to hash out with the city and property owners. But if the EIS shook out so that ROW were the only sanctioned option, I can't see city of Revere torpedoing a pork windfall for the sake of 1 complicit residential property owner. Nobody has that kind of clout.

 

[mikelaw85]

not sure if this was ever mentioned before but i really wonder how much easier it would have been for places like lynn chelsea everett and others to get transit line stops extensions and spurs if boston had become a mega city annexing everything inside 128 like it wanted to 100 years ago. or if it formed sort f a regional government like london. I mean one city hall fighting for all the projects instead of multiple city halls all fighting each other instead of places like revere and lynn working together being one city.. but instead we have revere only thinking of itself and hurting lynn.. i dont know i really think it would have made a difference in our transit subway system if we were one unified region instead of many cities.

 

[DBM]

Note that Democratic candidate Seth Moulton, seeking the Mass. Congressional district seat (the 6th) that includes Lynn, is making Blue Line extension to Lynn a centerpiece of his campaign. I don't think anyone's posted this here yet:


http://www.sethmoulton.com/item_live_moulton_on_a_mission

So, come tomorrow, if he wins, this could be a whole new ballgame?

 

[datadyne007]

That's fantastic! There's no one in this entire country more deserving to represent us right now than Seth Moulton. It's very encouraging to hear him talking about transit investment.

 

[Matthew]

He sounds nice but call me skeptical -- I don't think a freshman Congressman could get that much done, especially in the out party. He'll mostly be cooling his heels and working his way up the minority-side ladder. If he's smart.

Maybe in the future after he builds more support and the environment gets friendlier. And he shows the ability to get re-elected.

It's always nice to have elected officials who "get it."

 

[FK4]

not sure if this was ever mentioned before but i really wonder how much easier it would have been for places like lynn chelsea everett and others to get transit line stops extensions and spurs if boston had become a mega city annexing everything inside 128 like it wanted to 100 years ago. or if it formed sort f a regional government like london. I mean one city hall fighting for all the projects instead of multiple city halls all fighting each other instead of places like revere and lynn working together being one city.. but instead we have revere only thinking of itself and hurting lynn.. i dont know i really think it would have made a difference in our transit subway system if we were one unified region instead of many cities.

This is one of the biggest problems with all of Mass... although it retains the "local character", I dont think there is a single other state where every single municipality is 100% independent. Furthermore, the physical area of the towns surrounding Boston is pathetic - they're tiny! It's just so ridiculous how much power is devolved to a town like Brookline, which in 30 years is probably going to ringed with 30 story buildings along a significant chunk of its border with Boston, but still with single family homes on the other side. One could argue that it keeps Brookline nice, and of course, it's not exactly fair think that Cottage Farm or Kent Street should be bulldozed in favor of towers... but sort of regional government would make a whole lot more sense in terms of coordinating planning all kinds of things that would improve the lives of people in all the currounding communities. We have it - sort of - in the MWRA, but in terms of what gets done on the surface, we have very little. Perfect examples other than public transit - rail trails - like the Northern Strand or Wayside, which have to get approved by each community, rather than a regional governing body looking at the big picture and deciding that the trail would benefit the whole region.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

He sounds nice but call me skeptical -- I don't think a freshman Congressman could get that much done, especially in the out party. He'll mostly be cooling his heels and working his way up the minority-side ladder. If he's smart.

Maybe in the future after he builds more support and the environment gets friendlier. And he shows the ability to get re-elected.

It's always nice to have elected officials who "get it."

If this really is a serious advocacy point for him, the best good Moulton can do is work with Lynn pols to get their local advocacy in gear. Mike Capuano was good at this when he went from Somerville mayor to U.S. rep. STEP really sharpened its game when they got a Washington voice in their corner. To the point where they finally got shrewd enough to not fall victim to the same divide-and-conquer tactics that the state has successfully used to back out of other such projects. And Capuano is far, far from a transit svengali...in practice he actually shouldn't be allowed near a live microphone to free-associate about GLX. But he's a Somervillian at heart and that made all the difference in the world at toughening up and focusing the advocacy by the locals to the point where shovels are finally in the ground.

That's where Moulton's an asset. Lynn pols are too often their own worst enemies at not getting on the same page when it comes to cleanly advocating for higher-level investment. Hell...they can't even get their leg of the Bike to the Sea trail built because of little disagreements amongst themselves. It's very understandable because they're a city pulling themselves off the mat. They're lower today on the learning curve than, say, a Lowell or Brockton are...cities that bottomed-out earlier and are further along at re-learning how to plan for themselves. It would be a huge benefit for them if their Congressman--whoever it is--schools the locals on their discipline and at building coalitions with the right people. Because freshman or not, one does not get elected to Congress without being far above average at building support coalitions with the right people.

Moulton's a Salem and Marblehead guy, but he sounds like he's got an affinity for Lynn almost like it's a long-term fixer-upper for himself. So the Capuano effect could pay some dividends there if he gets entrenched. Mind you, it doesn't have to be limited to one transportation project. It runs the gamut what Lynn can do to help its own cause. A little coaching from a Congressional perspective on what it takes to make a winning advocacy goes a long way.

 

[millerm277]

This is one of the biggest problems with all of Mass... although it retains the "local character", I dont think there is a single other state where every single municipality is 100% independent. Furthermore, the physical area of the towns surrounding Boston is pathetic - they're tiny! It's just so ridiculous how much power is devolved to a town like Brookline, which in 30 years is probably going to ringed with 30 story buildings along a significant chunk of its border with Boston, but still with single family homes on the other side. One could argue that it keeps Brookline nice, and of course, it's not exactly fair think that Cottage Farm or Kent Street should be bulldozed in favor of towers... but sort of regional government would make a whole lot more sense in terms of coordinating planning all kinds of things that would improve the lives of people in all the currounding communities. We have it - sort of - in the MWRA, but in terms of what gets done on the surface, we have very little. Perfect examples other than public transit - rail trails - like the Northern Strand or Wayside, which have to get approved by each community, rather than a regional governing body looking at the big picture and deciding that the trail would benefit the whole region.

Come on out to New Jersey. It'll make MA's municipal divisions look great. 565 municipalities, all independent and free to not work with their neighbors at all.

And there's quite a few that aren't even a single square mile, in both rural and urban areas. For example: Guttenberg, NJ. It's 4 blocks wide. 0.243 square miles.

 

[George_Apley]

This is one of the biggest problems with all of Mass... although it retains the "local character", I dont think there is a single other state where every single municipality is 100% independent. Furthermore, the physical area of the towns surrounding Boston is pathetic - they're tiny! It's just so ridiculous how much power is devolved to a town like Brookline, which in 30 years is probably going to ringed with 30 story buildings along a significant chunk of its border with Boston, but still with single family homes on the other side. One could argue that it keeps Brookline nice, and of course, it's not exactly fair think that Cottage Farm or Kent Street should be bulldozed in favor of towers... but sort of regional government would make a whole lot more sense in terms of coordinating planning all kinds of things that would improve the lives of people in all the currounding communities. We have it - sort of - in the MWRA, but in terms of what gets done on the surface, we have very little. Perfect examples other than public transit - rail trails - like the Northern Strand or Wayside, which have to get approved by each community, rather than a regional governing body looking at the big picture and deciding that the trail would benefit the whole region.

Good luck ever changing that culture. New England's been like that since the 1600s. The maintenance of town meeting and strong municipal governance was a major contributing factor to New England being so prominent in pushing for independence from Britain in the first place.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Good luck ever changing that culture. New England's been like that since the 1600s. The maintenance of town meeting and strong municipal governance was a major contributing factor to New England being so prominent in pushing for independence from Britain in the first place.

And this is still better than when the county governments were still in power. There's a good reason why CT, RI, MA acted so quickly to roll back and ultimately dismantle that whole layer of local governance in the early-to-mid 20th century. We'd still be waiting for rural electrification in the exurbs if some of the Southern New England counties retained as much governing power as they did in the 1930's and earlier.

 

[Deetroyt]

Not sure if they've chosen a path that this would take yet, I know there were ideas for both running along the commuter line through the marsh, and also along the BRB&L thru Point o' Pines. Just curious, if the second option was chosen, would they likely plunk a station at PoP? Or would it go from Wonderland directly to Lynn?

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

The Po'P is a non-starter. The ROW is too built up. It has to run along the CR.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Not sure if they've chosen a path that this would take yet, I know there were ideas for both running along the commuter line through the marsh, and also along the BRB&L thru Point o' Pines. Just curious, if the second option was chosen, would they likely plunk a station at PoP? Or would it go from Wonderland directly to Lynn?

http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/Port...s/PublicPrivate/BlueLineExtP3ScreeningRpt.pdf

The marsh routing skipping PoP is the default and presumably easier choice because of the building encroachment (thank you, corrupt Revere!) at PoP that probably drives up the price with a little bit of shallow subwaying (i.e. like the D under the Brookline Village parking garage) and a lot more sound mitigation. PoP also requires more expensive bridging to get across Saugus River. But it is fully viable if there's any EIS blockers to the marsh.


There shouldn't be any EIS blockers to the marsh, however. The Eastern Railroad built the original line 170 years ago with slack space to expand to 4 tracks, and generally maintained that width as Revere got landfilled through the years. This is why the boulder embankment it sits on through the marsh is pretty generous and why it gets even wider when it juts out into the Saugus River right before the drawbridge. Those power lines got easily grafted onto the side about 50 years ago. So judicious shoring up of the boulder embankment to widen the top surface...possibly with a fairly pricey amount of retaining wall work...is how they'd do it. It probably would not claim one more inch of the underlying marsh than the boulders currently do.

The drawbridge would get replaced by a high fixed span carrying RR and Blue side-by-side, much like the Mystic span on the Orange and Haverhill Lines replaced an old ground-level drawbridge from the pre-Orange days. Note on the overhead view that Saugus Draw has abutments in the water for a second deck...that too was provisioned a century ago for future 4-tracking (although obviously Blue's not running over that ancient thing). Similarly a lot of retaining wall work to raise the trackbed on the Revere side onto a higher fixed span (Lynn side doesn't matter since that's all the old freight yard that used to be in front of GE).


Engineering-wise it's straightforward. Expensive, but straightforward. It doesn't appear they've narrowed down with precision exactly where Blue's going to jump off the Wonderland ROW and cross to the other side of 1A. That "Alternative 3" in the PDF I linked to has a kind of jagged cut-over that requires them to grade separate the Oak Island Rd. grade crossing splitting between houses and messing with the street grid. Yucky-looking. I kind of wonder if continuing up the current ROW to Oak Island St. behind Kelly's Roast Beef, then cutting over to 1A behind the outfield fence of the Oak Island Park little league field, then going across that eyesore parking lot at Ship's Whistle/Rent-A-Tool to the Eastern Route is going to be a better bet. Revere St. is a filled-in road overpass, so the grade separation is there to re-scoop. The lawn behind the Jack Satter House old folks home is the ROW. Mini-El would preserve access to the building, embankment around the ballfield sets up an overpass of 1A, rest is just crap asphalt. And that's an ideal place for an infill station...Oak I. was on the Lynn extension dating all the way back to the 1945 BTC map. Hell...get Kelly's to sponsor naming rights since that's pretty much their winning lottery ticket.

Some minor NIMBY kvetching for either cutover of 1A, but the latter is a lot less fugly to street level than the former and crosses a lot less wetlands to get on-alignment. I would guess if it gets picked back up for a comprehensive DEIR that they're going to look at both. It just hasn't been looked at closely enough to tell if Oak I. Rd. + more wetlands or Oak I. St. + less wetlands/more population is the path of least resistance for reaching the Eastern Route. Either/or, but one of them will shake out on further examination.

 

[Matthew]

Great to hear about Moulton, but... considering that Lynn voted Yes on Q1, I really have no patience for them now. Blue Line to Lynn can move to the back of the queue. Elections have consequences, and Lynn (along with the North Shore) made their voice heard loud and clear: no new transportation investment for them.

 

[George_Apley]

Vindictive politics on a 51-49 split? Jeez, remind me to never cross you...