Blue Line extension to Lynn

[Kahta]

How about instead of indexing the gas tax to inflation, the state roll back prevailing wage laws?

$37/hour to direct traffic...$90/hour to paint...$47/hour to drive a truck

 

[Arlington]

How about instead of indexing the gas tax to inflation, the state roll back prevailing wage laws?

$37/hour to direct traffic...$90/hour to paint...$47/hour to drive a truck

I suspect the real problem--the reason the State gets less infrastructure for its money--is work rules (over-staffing and overtime) rather than base wages.

I'd rather see comprehensive financing reform get us more infrastructure and more jobs based on *both* higher revenues *and* more productive construction workers (if we get better work rules the higher wages seem justifiable to me).

 

[kevtron2000]

Wouldn't a Blue Extension be best, if it turned left into Revere and Malden? If the Blue Line were to be extended into Lynn, we would have a giant gap between Wonderland and Lynn. It could stop at Points of Pines, but isn't that area a bit too small to be served by a subway?

 

[Arlington]

Wouldn't a Blue Extension be best, if it turned left into Revere and Malden? If the Blue Line were to be extended into Lynn, we would have a giant gap between Wonderland and Lynn. It could stop at Points of Pines, but isn't that area a bit too small to be served by a subway?

When last studied by the MPO, the "main" option was to cross over the tidal areas and line up with the CR for a first stop at Riverworks, and still, conceptually you could have put a station at the little finger of Point of Pines that touches the CR tracks.

The "alternate" option followed the old interurban line north to Point of Pines (but then it gets tricky to get to downtown Lynn)

Lynn is too big & close to not serve. I think the real question is whether they'd eventually go a bit north and then turn inland.

 

[George_Apley]

When last studied by the MPO, the "main" option was to cross over the tidal areas and line up with the CR for a first stop at Riverworks, and still, conceptually you could have put a station at the little finger of Point of Pines that touches the CR tracks.

Plop it down at Oak Island Park, replace Riverworks with a stop closer to Lynnway (call it Lynnway or South Lynn?). Those will cover PoP.

The "alternate" option followed the old interurban line north to Point of Pines (but then it gets tricky to get to downtown Lynn)

The issue with the PoP route, AFAIK, isn't getting to Lynn, it's that the ROW through the Point is crowded by development.

I think the real question is whether they'd eventually go a bit north and then turn inland.

Huh? You mean to Salem/Peabody? I think a South Salem stop at Jefferson or Ocean Ave is as far as Blue will ever get. At most there could be a stop wedged in near the Mill Street portal. To get Blue through there would require major tunnel work. Best to leave Salem Depot and Peabody/North Shore Mall to an Indigo DMU.

 

[kevtron2000]

Plop it down at Oak Island Park, replace Riverworks with a stop closer to Lynnway (call it Lynnway or South Lynn?). Those will cover PoP.



The issue with the PoP route, AFAIK, isn't getting to Lynn, it's that the ROW through the Point is crowded by development.



Huh? You mean to Salem/Peabody? I think a South Salem stop at Jefferson or Ocean Ave is as far as Blue will ever get. At most there could be a stop wedged in near the Mill Street portal. To get Blue through there would require major tunnel work. Best to leave Salem Depot and Peabody/North Shore Mall to an Indigo DMU.

Interesting... I originally meant a left turn at Wonderland, so subways can serve a more densely populated area. Also, I don't think subways should go beyond the 1-95 highway semi circle. Salem at max.... maybe....

 

[George_Apley]

Interesting... I originally meant a left turn at Wonderland, so subways can serve a more densely populated area. Also, I don't think subways should go beyond the 1-95 highway semi circle. Salem at max.... maybe....

Tunneling through suburban Revere is probably never going to happen. The best way to improve transit access for Revere is probably to:

• Take advantage of Blue as it exists
  • Articulated busses to Wonderland/Revere Beach
  • More ToD around current BL stops
  ​
• Green Line to the Airport from Lechmere following the UR ROW (along the Eastern Route) through Sullivan and Chelsea.
  • Artic busses to Chelsea GL station

 

[kevtron2000]

Tunneling through suburban Revere is probably never going to happen. The best way to improve transit access for Revere is probably to:

• Take advantage of Blue as it exists
  • Articulated busses to Wonderland/Revere Beach
  • More ToD around current BL stops
  ​
• Green Line to the Airport from Lechmere following the UR ROW (along the Eastern Route) through Sullivan and Chelsea.
  • Artic busses to Chelsea GL station

Well, an "ground" blue line makes more sense than a subway, since the blue line is already on the ground at Wonderland. Sorry, for the incorrect usage of the term. I don't think people would want an underground transit in a suburb. haha. I agree with the rest of your points.

 

[George_Apley]

Well, an "ground" blue line makes more sense than a subway, since the blue line is already on the ground at Wonderland. Sorry, for the incorrect usage of the term. I don't think people would want an underground transit in a suburb. haha. I agree with the rest of your points.

"At-grade" is the term you're looking for. As opposed to "below-grade" for a cut, or a subway.

I'm curious what routing you see for an at-grade Rapid Transit line through Revere.

 

[kevtron2000]

"At-grade" is the term you're looking for. As opposed to "below-grade" for a cut, or a subway.

I'm curious what routing you see for an at-grade Rapid Transit line through Revere.

Having transit through areas with some density could be better than constructing transit through a giant reservation with nothing there based on expected ridership. I am not an expert on this, but judging from the online maps, "At Grade" Blue Line through Revere from the left turn at either Wonderland or Revere Beach will be difficult, since there aren't many free space to do so. There would be a lot of demolition of homes, which isn't great based on cost, since there would have to be imminent domain. Plop some stations scattered around Central and/or Northern Revere, go around the giant reservation and then you reach Lynn. Redevelop the area with apartments + businesses around the T-Station, there you got more ridership. It would be cool to have Everett and Chelsea portion of land be served by subway. Maybe create another rapid transit line? haha, maybe not. Well, I'll just stay with the Blue Line at the moment.

 

[George_Apley]

There definitely won't be any large-scale, eminent domain land taking for urban renewal/transit infrastructure in this day and age. The 1970s killed off that style of land reform, and as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing.

Purely hypothetically, the ways to get rail into the heart of Revere would be:

• Subway HRT
• Elevated HRT
• At-grade street-car LRV wherever you can swing it

And I don't see any of those happening any time in the next 50 years.

 

[kevtron2000]

There definitely won't be any large-scale, eminent domain land taking for urban renewal/transit infrastructure in this day and age. The 1970s killed off that style of land reform, and as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing.

Purely hypothetically, the ways to get rail into the heart of Revere would be:

• Subway HRT
• Elevated HRT
• At-grade street-car LRV wherever you can swing it

And I don't see any of those happening any time in the next 50 years.

Agreed, though it is something to keep as a thought, if Boston were to grow quickly and urbanize the suburbs. Doubt that would happen, but who knows. At the moment, keeping the land based on room for transit isn't a concern in a suburb, so a subway isn't a good way to spend money for extensions. If we were build through Revere, it would have to be Elevated or At-grade street-car LRV as you stated.

 

[Scalziand]

Having transit through areas with some density could be better than constructing transit through a giant reservation with nothing there based on expected ridership. I am not an expert on this, but judging from the online maps, "At Grade" Blue Line through Revere from the left turn at either Wonderland or Revere Beach will be difficult, since there aren't many free space to do so. There would be a lot of demolition of homes, which isn't great based on cost, since there would have to be imminent domain. Plop some stations scattered around Central and/or Northern Revere, go around the giant reservation and then you reach Lynn. Redevelop the area with apartments + businesses around the T-Station, there you got more ridership. It would be cool to have Everett and Chelsea portion of land be served by subway. Maybe create another rapid transit line? haha, maybe not. Well, I'll just stay with the Blue Line at the moment.

Here's something like that which would be reasonable to build, thanks to the Saugus branch ROW. Not exactly the quickest way to get to Lynn though. Also might have to relocate the displaced Northern Strand Trail to the abandoned embankment for I-95.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zkzO6ChGpVHo.kYGNghhF-vrM

 

[Matthew]

"imminent domain" might be my new favorite eggcorn!

 

[kevtron2000]

Here's something like that which would be reasonable to build, thanks to the Saugus branch ROW. Not exactly the quickest way to get to Lynn though. Also might have to relocate the displaced Northern Strand Trail to the abandoned embankment for I-95.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zkzO6ChGpVHo.kYGNghhF-vrM

Nice Map. The route is very similar to what I was imagining. You could place a station near where it first touches Route 60, so it more central in Revere. Also, you could add one more station in Saugus, but I think 1 is enough. It would be interesting to see an "at-grade" subway in the middle of the route 60. I am pretty sure there are those types of set-ups in other parts of the country.

 

[Charlie_mta]

Here's something like that which would be reasonable to build, thanks to the Saugus branch ROW. Not exactly the quickest way to get to Lynn though. Also might have to relocate the displaced Northern Strand Trail to the abandoned embankment for I-95.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zkzO6ChGpVHo.kYGNghhF-vrM

I like your idea. I did revise the southern leg to avoid Route 60.

East of Route 107, the transit line would need to be on an elevated structure over the marshes, but still way cheaper than a subway. West of route 107 it could be mostly at-grade.

No homes would need to be taken for this route.

 

[Proposition Joe]

I think that a direct route for Lynn (and eventually Salem) is more beneficial than covering the northern fringes of Revere. There is also a lot more TOD potential in southern Lynn near the proposed right of way than what would be made available by redeveloping anything on the edge of the Rumney Marshes there.

I think that rapid transit in Revere is tied to bringing rapid transit to Chelsea. Have a transit median or elevated track through Revere down Broadway to Bellingham Square. How to connect that to the rest of the system is a tough question though.

 

[The EGE]

I think that a direct route for Lynn (and eventually Salem) is more beneficial than covering the northern fringes of Revere. There is also a lot more TOD potential in southern Lynn near the proposed right of way than what would be made available by redeveloping anything on the edge of the Rumney Marshes there.

Precisely! That part of Revere is well served by buses. It's not worth going miles (=minutes on the ride, and billions in the budget) out of your way to serve a strip mall and low-density Saugus.

During its brief control of the B&M around 1911, the New Haven Railroad was preparing to quadruple-track the Eastern Route (Nport/Rport mainline) out to Beverly. Some of those preparations were actually completed - Lynn station was quadrupled tracked, and all the bridges in Lynn are 4 tracks wide. A lot of the right of way through the Saugus marsh is built for 4 tracks wide; that simplifies your environmental issues and makes it cheaper.

If you connect the Blue Line over to the Eastern Route just north of Revere Street, your only new right of way is that short connector. Everything else is the current alignment (the BRB&L) or the Eastern Route. Just follow it right up to the space between the garage and the commuter rail tracks at Lynn - a gap which was, in 1992, intentionally sized to fit a Blue Line station.

 

[cbrett]

Interesting... I originally meant a left turn at Wonderland, so subways can serve a more densely populated area. Also, I don't think subways should go beyond the 1-95 highway semi circle. Salem at max.... maybe....

The thing is, aside from the brief stretch between Wonderland and Riverworks/the Lynnway, something not too different than the existing Red Line Braintree branch, Lynn has 40,000 more people and an almost identical density. With the potential for TOD and a Riverworks/Lynnway infill station, the line will likely only go through a very brief stretch of empty land to bring completely new transit access to a city of 90,000 while traveling on a mostly pre-existing ROW with minimal construction costs and NIMBY complaints. Its been discussed to greater detail before how Blue to Central Square Lynn would also revitalize the North Shore bus routes, bringing greater transit to other underserved communities like Peabody and parts of Salem.

Maybe someday the Blue line can make that turn, but the Lynn expansion is such a less expensive and much more profitable approach that it would be insane not to do it first. Also, I wouldnt consider Lynn to be as suburban as youre making it out to be, it may not be as dense as Boston but it is definitely a major city in its own right. With better transit access and some legitimate investment in the coty, there is no reason the city of sin couldnt reinvent itself and become a major destination and employment center in its own right.

 

[George_Apley]

It literally makes no sense - neither financially, nor in terms of ridership demand - to take the Blue Line into the swamps of North Revere instead of going straight to Lynn.

To do the proposed route, either an embankment would need to be created in the marsh, or lots of land-taking would occur. What population centers are hit in Revere? None. The Saugus Line ROW is not as straight forward as it appears. There are plenty of grade-crossings to deal with, and close-abutting suburban neighborhoods that would have zero interest in a high-frequency train coming through every 4-10 minutes. Get Blue to Lynn the most direct way.

I reiterate, and agree with others, that the best way to serve Revere is by bringing rapid transit to Chelsea, improving bus schedules/capacity, and TOD at the BL stations Revere already has.

The Saugus Branch at most could serve as a BRT ROW, with priority lights at the grade-crossings. Plot a Park & Ride at Route 1 northeast of Linden Square. Busses could go past Northgate through Revere, down Everett's gut to terminate at Wellington, or to Malden Center.

Honestly though, the best we're likely to ever get out of Saugus ROW is a bicycle path.