Blue Line extension to Lynn

[Arlington]

I might go as far west as the new Market Basket, but then I would turn north to the unused I-95 embankment to get to Riverworks.

 

[George_Apley]

I might go as far west as the new Market Basket, but then I would cut back to the unused I-95 embankment to get to Riverworks.

I still think that building a brand new embankment through the marsh would be a killer of that. Maybe it's just as arduous to widen an existing embankment, but I imagine that the EIS for a brand new ROW would be more highly scrutinized.

 

[Arlington]

I still think that building a brand new embankment through the marsh would be a killer of that. Maybe it's just as arduous to widen an existing embankment, but I imagine that the EIS for a brand new ROW would be more highly scrutinized.

It woulnt be new. It is already there, un-paved visible in Google

 

[George_Apley]

It woulnt be new. It is already there, un-paved visible in Google

I don't mean the erstwhile I-95 ROW. That's there. I'm thinking of getting from Wonderland to Northgate/Market Basket. That appears to require a fresh embankment through the marsh.

 

[Arlington]

I don't mean the erstwhile I-95 ROW. That's there. I'm thinking of getting from Wonderland to Northgate/Market Basket. That appears to require a fresh embankment through the marsh.

Ah,well, you're quite right about that.
Like you, my first choice is still straight to Riverworks from Wonderland (assume an Oak Island stop is proposed and then deleted by a combination of NIMBYs and cost).

And I don't see the payback of a big loop through Revere, 'cause I don't think they'd ever give "us" the kind of density "we" would need to get a payback on all those track-miles.

But putting "TOD" stop at the Northgate Shopping Center (with a park-and-ride atop the Rt 1 rotary) would create a decent intermodal node, and maybe you could get there without any swamp filling with a little bit of taking on Hastings Street and then tunneling under Ward St through the middle of the TOD site (and maybe start a gentler turn north sooner).

Or a short cut-and-cover under Rt 60 (though sea-level rise and water table could be a problem there). That sure would be nice for making a stop walkable to all those houses on the south side of Rt 60 (rather than having to cross 60 every morning)

If you're doing an EIS from scratch, it seems worth exploring.

 

[kevtron2000]

The thing is, aside from the brief stretch between Wonderland and Riverworks/the Lynnway, something not too different than the existing Red Line Braintree branch, Lynn has 40,000 more people and an almost identical density. With the potential for TOD and a Riverworks/Lynnway infill station, the line will likely only go through a very brief stretch of empty land to bring completely new transit access to a city of 90,000 while traveling on a mostly pre-existing ROW with minimal construction costs and NIMBY complaints. Its been discussed to greater detail before how Blue to Central Square Lynn would also revitalize the North Shore bus routes, bringing greater transit to other underserved communities like Peabody and parts of Salem.

Maybe someday the Blue line can make that turn, but the Lynn expansion is such a less expensive and much more profitable approach that it would be insane not to do it first. Also, I wouldnt consider Lynn to be as suburban as youre making it out to be, it may not be as dense as Boston but it is definitely a major city in its own right. With better transit access and some legitimate investment in the coty, there is no reason the city of sin couldnt reinvent itself and become a major destination and employment center in its own right.

More trains traveling inland rather than hugging the coastline would be better to serve more people. The left turn just provides train rapid transit service to areas where there are already development, so you can redevelop and provide more station options to add more riders. People in Lynn could hop on the T to Revere or Saugus, but there should be studies, if they will do so. If not, then, of course, a direct line to Lynn or improving bus service might work better.

 

[Scalziand]

Honestly though, the best we're likely to ever get out of Saugus ROW is a bicycle path.

It already is a path , for the most part.

 

[whighlander]

It's getting time to move this discussion to Crazy Transit Pitches

The studies have been done -- there are two proposed routes based on existing rail ROW and some minor variants

• 1) narrow gauge ROW Alternative --- Blue Line Extension to Salem via Narrow Gauge and Eastern Route
• 2 ) Eastern Branch Alternative -- Blue Line Extension to Salem via Eastern Route Main Line
• non-Blue alternatives:
  • Diesel Multiple Units (self propelled railcars) running on Main Line
  • Blue Line and Commuter Rail Intermodal Connection in Revere

The Alewife like station combing buses, CR & Blue line is ready for expansion to accommodate the Blue Line in Lynn Center

The rest is too too hypothetical to consider seriously

BUT most importantly there is no funding for any of the above

 

[The EGE]

More trains traveling inland rather than hugging the coastline would be better to serve more people. The left turn just provides train rapid transit service to areas where there are already development, so you can redevelop and provide more station options to add more riders. People in Lynn could hop on the T to Revere or Saugus, but there should be studies, if they will do so. If not, then, of course, a direct line to Lynn or improving bus service might work better.

It doesn't work like that. You need a minimum density of 40 residents and jobs per acre to support rapid transit, and usually twice that. Saugus has just 4 residents per acre of land, distributed homogenously with only small village centers, and relatively few jobs.

Lynn averages 13 people per acre of land, with the downtown area at around 60, and about an equal number of jobs. It's an ideal edge city of rapid transit - and it needs the line coming via the most direct, cheapest, and quickest route. That's the N/R Line right of way. Not the Saugus Branch (slow, curvy, with numerous grade crossings, and not wide enough for rail + trail, as well as requiring a massive flyover to get the Blue Line to the designated station spot), and not the highway embankment (in uncertain shape, requiring several sharp curves, expensive to EIS and to build, and lacking a direct route into downtown Lynn).

The proposed route would require zero land taking except for a few slivers to get past Oak Island (which might involve a Beachmont-style overpass). Everything else is publicly owned right of way and a bit of swampland.

Oak Island and PoP would be better served by a dedicated bus to Wonderland, rather than pricey RT stations. Lynnway will be much less crowded after an extension anyway.

 

[George_Apley]

It's getting time to move this discussion to Crazy Transit Pitches

The studies have been done -- there are two proposed routes based on existing rail ROW and some minor variants

• 1) narrow gauge ROW Alternative --- Blue Line Extension to Salem via Narrow Gauge and Eastern Route
• 2 ) Eastern Branch Alternative -- Blue Line Extension to Salem via Eastern Route Main Line
• non-Blue alternatives:
  • Diesel Multiple Units (self propelled railcars) running on Main Line
  • Blue Line and Commuter Rail Intermodal Connection in Revere

The Alewife like station combing buses, CR & Blue line is ready for expansion to accommodate the Blue Line in Lynn Center

The rest is too too hypothetical to consider seriously

BUT most importantly there is no funding for any of the above

I think the thread can handle a little on-topic speculation without being combed through for things that are "too crazy" for the thread. Crazy Transit Pitches is a fun catch-all, but IMO it should be okay to use project specific threads to have some fun with speculating. Especially if there's no movement on the project. It's hardly an off-topic conversation.

[off-topic] And thank you for yet again jumping in with the bucket of cold water. We all know that money is not to be found in the budget in the immediate future. But your boy Baker is not going to be the Scott Walker of your hopes and dreams. [/off-topic]

 

[tangent]

Okay, here is a map of an Orange Line Branch alternative proposal

The benefits of a Orange Line Branch to Salem would be that it serves more people and follows the existing Commuter Rail right of way so that the only community and environmental impact would be additional train service.

The downsides of a Blue Line extension to Lynn (and why it hasn't happened) is that it only benefits Lynn at the expense of disruption in Revere. So the politics just doesn't seem to work for the Blue Line extension.

Also, the requirement for a new bridge and/or wetland crossing makes the environmental impact and disruption too high considering the limited benefit. That and increasing reliance/wear and tear on the customized and smaller Blue line trains, versus the standard subway Orange and Red Line train is another negative for the Blue Line extension... I still think it could be worth it, but the Orange line could provide a better alternative.

The Orange Line branch would serve Chelsea, (possibly Everett), (possibly allow for a relatively short walking connection to the Blue Line in Revere). Put GE's Riverworks on the Orange Line and potentially open up a vacant part of their site for redevelopment.

More frequent service for Lynn has already been discussed as a benefit. But with an Orange Line branch you could also reduce the number of stops for the commuter rail trains that are also served by the new Orange Line branch which could reduce trip times from the North Shore. Add the existing Swampscott station (Just a mile or two away from our new Governor's house) And connecting Salem with its vibrant downtown to Lynn and Boston would increase options for commuters and even tourism (think Halloween October in Salem). Then add a stop in close proximity to Salem State University to top it off and you open up opportunities for redevelopment along canal street and give students a better commuting option and give the many students that live there better access to Salem, Lynn and Boston.

Would be great if you could just use the existing commuter rail tracks which would cut down on the costs tremendously, but as others have pointed out there seems to be some policy issues with that about mixing train types on the same line.

 

[Arlington]

If you ask the MBTA, they'd say the thing they're closest to doing is DMU/frequent service to from Lynn & Riverworks to Chelsea & North Station

 

[underground]

I personally like the North Station to Salem route as a XMU/CR. Max build, you get the intra-city service from the XMU and the express inter-city of the CR, all on one track set. Orange line to Salem is going to be a long ride, and a long ride in a subway car as opposed to a CR coach. Ultimately though, OL in that route is probably a non-starter because it would probably require taking out the entire Rockport CR line.

 

[davem]

Even if a leg through Revere made sense (which it doesn't), the ridership numbers coming out of Lynn mean basically full trains, stops on the way downtown would hinder service. Thats why the 199(4?)(6?) study suggested branching the blue line. The existing portion would operate as, is, while a new branch to Lynn would split north of Airport station and follow the abandoned eastern route ROW to the left of RT 1. If it was really warranted I suppose you could add in a stop between Winthrop Ave and Railroad Street, since there is ample opportunity for TOD there and it's only a half mile to Revere center.

 

[kevtron2000]

It doesn't work like that. You need a minimum density of 40 residents and jobs per acre to support rapid transit, and usually twice that. Saugus has just 4 residents per acre of land, distributed homogenously with only small village centers, and relatively few jobs.

Lynn averages 13 people per acre of land, with the downtown area at around 60, and about an equal number of jobs. It's an ideal edge city of rapid transit - and it needs the line coming via the most direct, cheapest, and quickest route. That's the N/R Line right of way. Not the Saugus Branch (slow, curvy, with numerous grade crossings, and not wide enough for rail + trail, as well as requiring a massive flyover to get the Blue Line to the designated station spot), and not the highway embankment (in uncertain shape, requiring several sharp curves, expensive to EIS and to build, and lacking a direct route into downtown Lynn).

The proposed route would require zero land taking except for a few slivers to get past Oak Island (which might involve a Beachmont-style overpass). Everything else is publicly owned right of way and a bit of swampland.

Oak Island and PoP would be better served by a dedicated bus to Wonderland, rather than pricey RT stations. Lynnway will be much less crowded after an extension anyway.

Yep. Saugus is sparsely populated, so it is one of the problems with this left turn route. I think 1 station is better than 2, if we could build the line and redevelop the area. We could just avoid Saugus all together, but continue around the marsh. Either way, both might be unfeasible.

As for the direct route, the PoP Station is a bit strange, since it is basically a station on a small island, if you ignore the small land strip connection to it.

If you ask the MBTA, they'd say the thing they're closest to doing is DMU/frequent service to from Lynn & Riverworks to Chelsea & North Station

Missing the North-South Rail Link :O though....It might not even be built by 2024. Will it? Just wondering. Not an expert on NSRL construction time frame....

 

[George_Apley]

Just to keep things tidy, ask that over in the NSLR thread.

 

[Arlington]

Even the 2024 plan shown is a stretch. There will be no BL to Lynn nor NSRL before 2025, that is for sure. And if they do pull off frequent CR /DMU to Lynn ( on any schedule, it is likely to be tried first as the cheap/easy one ) it is going to be a good-enough solution that it will push the blue out even further (but may pull the NSRL a bit closer)

 

[Deetroyt]

Couple of articles that touched on Blue line extension on Commonwealth page:

Joseph Curtatone
http://commonwealthmagazine.org/economy/olympics-regional-effort/

This one is more about Red-Blue, I'll put it in that thread:
James Aloisi
http://commonwealthmagazine.org/transportation/need-blue-red-connector/

 

[tangent]

I personally like the North Station to Salem route as a XMU/CR. Max build, you get the intra-city service from the XMU and the express inter-city of the CR, all on one track set. Orange line to Salem is going to be a long ride, and a long ride in a subway car as opposed to a CR coach. Ultimately though, OL in that route is probably a non-starter because it would probably require taking out the entire Rockport CR line.

I do like that 2024 plan with more frequent CR service to Lynn (and Woburn) better than either a Blue or Orange line extension. I don't think the color of the line matters except in public perception. Just more frequent service would be key however you can do that most economically.

I'd say the Blue Line to Lynn is dead and maybe it should be based on the issues and expense versus the benefits. But it would be good to see that 2024 plan with more service extended not just to Lynn but also to Salem... Maybe start with October.

Salem is a real success story with a vibrant downtown full of businesses, new development, students and a great deal of seasonal tourism and there could be a lot of benefit in increasing service along the line between cities and not just getting people to and from Boston.

Also, when I was thinking about that line a Salem State University station (within walking distance) would be a great addition. The downtown Salem Station is just too far of a walk from the University.

 

[kevtron2000]

I do like that 2024 plan with more frequent CR service to Lynn (and Woburn) better than either a Blue or Orange line extension. I don't think the color of the line matters except in public perception. Just more frequent service would be key however you can do that most economically.

I'd say the Blue Line to Lynn is dead and maybe it should be based on the issues and expense versus the benefits. But it would be good to see that 2024 plan with more service extended not just to Lynn but also to Salem... Maybe start with October.

Salem is a real success story with a vibrant downtown full of businesses, new development, students and a great deal of seasonal tourism and there could be a lot of benefit in increasing service along the line between cities and not just getting people to and from Boston.

Also, when I was thinking about that line a Salem State University station (within walking distance) would be a great addition. The downtown Salem Station is just too far of a walk from the University.

Agreed, but Subway Lines should stop there and don't go beyond 1-95 semi-circle.