Boston 2024

[ant8904]

The way this is going, we are going to embarrass ourselves to the world while UHub cheers in celebration with no acknowledgement in how bad we looked. It is one thing to lose the bid, it's another to lose by eating ourselves in disorganization and poor venue proposals.

In my mind, the Olympics would have been proposed on Beacon Park Rail Yard with the cooperation of BU and Harvard getting athletics and dorms after. A new neighborhood would also be made. A slew of transit from the Green, Red, and DMUs with the Pike to cover the traffic. All of this done on Boston's terms forcing avoidance of overruns.

This is nothing like I imagine. Plans are falling to satellite cities while we have to compete with Paris looking willing to throw tons of money.

USOC should come in and announce in a way that save Boston's Face and their own. Like in face of Paris, we are pulling out of contention. Framed in a way we can't bid in favorable terms rather than we look like a hot mess.

 

[JohnAKeith]

Announced for BCEC: boxing, indoor volleyball and table tennis; also, thus far, still location of media center (next door)

 

[stellarfun]

Here is a summary of the Paris venues in English.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20150623/how-would-france-handle-the-2024-olympics

The only major investment, infrastructure aside, is for the swimming and diving venue and an Olympic village. And as Boston 2024 spreads its venues to the hinterlands, Paris remains compact.

The Globe has an article about how the original Boston bid was premised on the colleges and universities providing venues and housing, yet there had been no serious conversation. let alone securing a commitment, from any of the colleges and universities beforehand. Harvard was penciled in for a half-dozen sports, for which Harvard would receive $3.6 million from the Boston 2024 committee.

An article/opinion piece in the Christian Science Monitor focusing on how the bids for the 2022 Games are now two.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Up...024-Summer-Games-a-warning-for-Olympics-video

 

[stellarfun]

I have read speculation in non-Boston newspapers that the USOC will pull Boston's bid, substitute Los Angeles, not expecting Los Angeles to win, but to set up Los Angeles for 2028.

Here is a map showing candidate sites for swimming and the Olympic village, in the northeast 'burbs. Also shows the mass transit lines.

Another map, showing in gray, where existing venues or sites would need to be modified.

 

[stellarfun]

No field hockey at Harvard. Archery at the stadium.

BC gets wrestling and judo.

Northeastern gets weightlifting.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...cs-proposal/GbZw3b8Yw578AbGwl0tzqO/story.html

 

[tangent]

Are they really saving money using existing venues or is this political and an indication they need more state money?

 

[Shepard]

Here's a question for debate. Would ANY Boston bid have ever had a leg up on Paris, given what we now know about Paris's bid (and apparent local support)?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Are they really saving money using existing venues or is this political and an indication they need more state money?

I think it means the door has been busted down and every political interest from the 'burbs is now pouring in looking for their handout and looking for their cooperation to be bought lest they raise a stink in the Legislature, with the Governor, with their trumped-up traffic concerns, with any flimsy excuse and attention-getting tactic they can think of.

If Worcester and Middlesex Counties now have their teeth firmly planted in B24's neck and fingers stirring the pot it means no one was watching the door, no one was protecting Boston 2024's perimeter.


Now they've got a big problem on their hands as more and more legislative/congressional districts, Chambers of Commerce, etc. come pouring through that door. Springfield will point at Lowell and ask "Where's mine?". Fall River and New Bedford will point at Springfield and say "Me too." The UMass Board of Trustees will start agitating for events at the flagship campus in Amherst. The Cape and Berkshires will get into the act. Kraft will start agitating to get more home siting around Foxboro by being able to quickly produce event space.

Then...if something gets sited out in Springfield and more goes down to Bristol County you'll get Connecticut and Rhode Island flapping their lips becasue the Games have intruded Providence Metro and Hartford Metro. There'll be "concerns" about the traffic impacts. Nobody has to listen to them...nobody probably will. But it'll become its own permanent background noise.


And on and on and on. We're standing at a tipping point where 1 or 2 more small handouts to the 495-and-beyond political interests on the scale of this DCU Center announcement officially loses all control over the proceedings and sinks it for good. This is a serious breach. It's not "Boston" Olympics anymore if the 'burbs have broken in and started their feeding frenzy. It's every provincial outpost for itself...and that's death. It's death in the most Massachusetts way possible, in exactly the way B24's very organization was supposed to prevent from happening.

There are very powerful people who are never gonna work in this town again if this is the way they let it slip away. Of all the self-inflicted mistakes, letting the 'burbs storm the gates and the whole works consume itself with a draw-and-quartering free for all is one of the bitterest possible ways for it to end.

 

[tangent]

Here's a question for debate. Would ANY Boston bid have ever had a leg up on Paris, given what we now know about Paris's bid (and apparent local support)?

Sure why not? Just need a good plan. The stadium is the major issue. If Menino had worked with Kraft and located the Patriots Stadium in Boston, then we would have all the needed facilities. A disposable stadium is a major dowside regardless of what the IOC says.

 

[datadyne007]

Olympic support outside of 495 was also dramatically higher than inside. I assume moving the venues out of Boston is an effort to placate those who opposed the Olympics because too much was happening in such a tight area in Boston. On the flip side, there are many Boston residents (the UHub crowd) that will never be satisfied because they don't want to see anything at all.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Olympic support outside of 495 was also dramatically higher than inside. I assume moving the venues out of Boston is an effort to placate those who opposed the Olympics because too much was happening in such a tight area in Boston. On the flip side, there are many Boston residents (the UHub crowd) that will never be satisfied because they don't want to see anything at all.

Precisely the wrongest and most self-defeating pivot to be made in the wake of Paris dropping the city-centric bomb on the proceedings. So are they operating a week slow on reaction time? Are their hands tied by outside-Boston interests? Are they running out of rope inside Boston? Which stressor is forcing them down this path that lands them at their widest possible bid disadvantage vs. Paris?

 

[Proposition Joe]

It's very disappointing that Boston 2024 is pushing events outside of the Boston area and I think it's pretty clear at this point that there is no thought whatsoever being put into planning a legacy for a Boston Olympics, the promise of a legacy was used as a selling point rather than being the point of bidding in the first place. A bid could have at least brought attention to transportation needs regardless of success but instead the organizing committee lazily grabbed a bunch of projects off Patrick's funding bill and called it a day.

I think that Boston was more than capable of not only putting together a competitive bid but also supporting one as well. I imagine that Los Angeles will get the nod for 2028 and win easily after Paris gets 2024.

Oh well.

 

[stellarfun]

Here's a question for debate. Would ANY Boston bid have ever had a leg up on Paris, given what we now know about Paris's bid (and apparent local support)?

From what I can tell, there are only two venues that Paris needs to build from scratch: an aquatics center (for swimming, diving, and water polo), and a field hockey stadium. I don't know about rowing and the kayak course. Yachting will be chosen from one of six sites on the coast, none proximate to Paris.

Here is a link to 15 images of the proposed Paris venues. Compare, for example, what Paris will offer for tennis, and what Boston will now offer. Or for the equestrian events.

http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/jeux-olympiques/diaporamas/les-sites-de-paris-2024/stade-de-france

I think the larger question for both the USOC and Boston 2024 is if Paris is seen as the prohibitive favorite, what will that do to the less than robust enthusiasm from Bostonians and Bay Staters for hosting the games? It is not as if a failed Boston bid for 2024 would make Boston the frontrunner for being the American bid for 2028. The Beacon Yards will be developed, Widett Circle may nay no longer be available as a site. By 2028, Boston is even more site-constrained when it comes to having to build key venues; which is / will not be the case of other U.S. cities.

 

[Equilibria]

Here's a question for debate. Would ANY Boston bid have ever had a leg up on Paris, given what we now know about Paris's bid (and apparent local support)?

Sure. A Boston bid that had the full cooperation and endorsement of the city's colleges and universities, sited in a way that took advantage of natural beauty points and views, and that sold itself effectively to the citizens would have been a cost-effective and attractive package.

FWIW, Paris has also done a great job of zooming out their maps to hide how far some of these venues really are from the city center. They're concentrated, but not as much as it would seem. A truly walkable Boston bid would have been more compact than Paris, cheaper than Paris, and in a country that the IOC is amenable to choosing (like France, the US has suffered bitter defeats in recent bids - we just put up a different city each time).

It's not about whether there's a permanent stadium (which doesn't matter one bit to the IOC as long as it will exist in 2024). It's about how you sell the whole package. What we're seeing today is Paris's proof-of-concept bid. It has no budget, no financing plan, nothing. Just a map and probably some renderings in coming days. Thing is, that's all Paris has to do. They can take the next two years to develop a bid book without an activist group or a skeptical governor breathing down their necks. They can keep leaning on the pretty pictures because the concept of a Paris Olympics sells itself to people, at any price.

Boston 2024 over the last six months has been put through a wringer that virtually guaranteed failure. Residents freaked out because some snow shut down the T and transferred all that anxiety and defeatism to the bid. The governor saw a chance to score responsibility brownie points by stiff-arming it. The committee has, without sufficient funding, been forced to do the work of two years in two months, under the gun, with the national media proclaiming the bid a failure and city a laughingstock before they even produced anything.

Despite all of that, I still had hope until today that they could pull it out, but they can't just make venues appear out of thin air in a compact radius. Harrambee Park worked out for them, but Harvard clearly refused to do anything more than rent out their stadium for a small-footprint event. MIT and BU refused to cooperate entirely. Baker killed the BCEC expansion, then feigned ignorance that it would have any impact on Boston 2024. POC bids can wow you with the ideal, but people demanded the possible, and Boston 2024 had nowhere near the time or the political capital to make the ideal possible. I'm not sure Paris can do that either, but again, they don't have to worry about it for five years.

I think the larger question for both the USOC and Boston 2024 is if Paris is seen as the prohibitive favorite, what will that do to the less than robust enthusiasm from Bostonians and Bay Staters for hosting the games? It is not as if a failed Boston bid for 2024 would make Boston the frontrunner for being the American bid for 2028. The Beacon Yards will be developed, Widett Circle may nay no longer be available as a site. By 2028, Boston is even more site-constrained when it comes to having to build key venues; which is / will not be not the case of other U.S. cities.

One and only chance. When this fails, Boston is radioactive to the USOC in the same way Denver is.

 

[tklalmighty]

On the bright side, they're incorporating BC and Northeastern. That could be the best part of these developments.

I'm pretty sure the IOC isn't mandating minimum seating capacities of >10K for tertiary-or-lower events when Conte Forum's 8600 seats, Agganis Arena's 7200 seats, and Matthews Arena's 6000 seats are in the mix.

I'm still trying to figure out if there's any logistical purpose to the moves. Handball had a home at BU. IOC specs do require 10k for the finals (and just 6000 for prelims), but I'm pretty sure they would've gotten away with using Conte or Agganis. Taekwondo would've worked when paired up with Table Tennis at BCEC. Fencing had a home at Harvard. I guess they eliminated a temporary archery venue but frankly that would've been among the easier temporary venues to set up and breakdown.

I'm not convinced that Paris is a lock to win, especially after the showing they had as favorites for 2012. I still want Boston to win, but as we're approaching Atlanta levels of venue regionalization, it certainly doesn't seem to be heading in the right direction. What a shame for a city with such great potential to shine.

 

[stellarfun]

If you read French, here are details of the French bid, with some info on financing.

http://www.lequipe.fr/Tous-sports/Actualites/Paris-c-est-6-milliards-de-budget/535552

The two venues that I referenced earlier that need to be built; field hockey stadium would have 10,000 seats, swimming/diving 12,000 seats, water polo 5,000 seats. The rowing and kayaking venues will be finished in 2018, and are being built regardless.

With venues for three sports to be built from scratch, an Olympic village, and a media center, the budget is 6 billion Euros, half of which is for infrastructure.

 

[Equilibria]

With venues for three sports to be built from scratch, an Olympic village, and a media center, the budget is 6 billion Euros, half of which is for infrastructure.

Look for that budget to triple. Olympics don't get put on for 6 billion euros. Remember - London thought they could do it for $5 billion. They spent $15 billion.

 

[MBTAddict]

Sure why not? Just need a good plan. The stadium is the major issue. If Menino had worked with Kraft and located the Patriots Stadium in Boston, then we would have all the needed facilities. A disposable stadium is a major dowside regardless of what the IOC says.

DRINK!

 

[tangent]

I still hold out some hope that Boston can pull together a plan that can win the bid over Paris. The plans can change a hundred times between now and the games. Smaller venues can be shifted around based on feedback. Boston has international strengths... Harvard, MIT, Birthplace of the Revolution that could all be accentuated better. I fear many locals aren't really aware of the city and the region's international strengths and get focused on the local tourist traps which are not even top ten internationally. Quincy Market and Faneuil Hall and the Freedom Trail are up there too. The MIT dome as backdrop to archery was a good idea.

 

[stellarfun]

From the Paris bid document, posted on the French sports newspaper site. I've annotated and added data which was not included in the document.

Highlighted venues
Stade de France 80,000 seats, track and field, opening and closing ceremonies

Vaires-sur-Marne, rowing and canoe/kayak, currently under construction, about $100 million cost. May require additional funding..

Carpentier Hall, 8000 seats, indoor, table tennis / badminton (to be renovated)

Roland Garros, tennis, 3 courts, 30,000 seats. proposed expansion and roof for the court being debated heatedly.

Longchamp hippodrome, equestrian events, being renovated 2015-17

Parc des Princes, soccer, 49000 seats. being extensively renovated for Euro 2016 matches

Stade Jean Boudin, 20000 seats, reconstructed 2013, rugby

Bercy Arena, 15,000 seats, indoor, renovation complete fall 2015,

Velodrome St. Quentin, opened in 2014 5,000 seats, host 2015 world championships

Golf National St. Quentin, host 2018 Ryder Cup, hold 80,000 fans

Arena 92, domed stadium construction complete Dec 2016, seating variable for athletic events, holds 40,000 for concerts

Referenced as possible site, but not given a sport. Sort of a BTW entry
Grand Stadium of French Rughy Federation @ Evry construction start 2016, 82,000 seats

Colisee de Tremblay-en-France, under construction, opening 2019, two halls, seating 8,000+

Bid document does not reference proposed arena (The Dome) at Sarcelles, seating 13,000. Sarcelles is 10 miles north of the center of Paris.

Other venues, to be temporarily used for sports.

Trocadero, marathon. triathalon (think of the Lincoln Memorial and Reflecting Pool in Washington)

Chateau des Versailles cycling

Grand Palais, fencing

Champ des Mars, beach volleyball

Esplanade des Invalides, archery
_____________________________________________
Eight indoor arenas in total, existing. Not all are named
one with 15,000 seats
one with 12,000 seats
one with 10,000 seats
two arenas with 6,000 seats
three arenas with 5,000 seats

______________________________
Media center, new construction, 140,000 square meters
Whether there should be a 'media village' is an open question. (Twice as many media representatives as there are athletes.) 15,000 Olympians and para-Olympians
_____________________________

Will spend 60 million euros to finalize the bid.