City Hall Discussion - Redevelopment - Preservation - Relocation

It is true that events are set up and people will make some use of a large empty paved space in the middle of a city. But the bigger question is: is that the best long-term development for the site? I'd say no. This has been discussed by many people, many times on this website in various threads.

Two blocks away there is the Rose Kennedy Greenway providing more than enough open greenspace. So why is a giant hole in the urban fabric at City Hall Plaza (including areas west) necessary? In my opinion it is counterproductive to a vital and dense urban core.
 
Charlie_mta said:
It is true that events are set up and people will make some use of a large empty paved space in the middle of a city. But the bigger question is: is that the best long-term development for the site? I'd say no. This has been discussed by many people, many times on this website in various threads.

Two blocks away there is the Rose Kennedy Greenway providing more than enough open greenspace. So why is a giant hole in the urban fabric at City Hall Plaza (including areas west) necessary? In my opinion it is counterproductive to a vital and dense urban core.
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Then Greenway doesn't really provide a large enough area for a huge number of people to congregate like Boston City Hall Plaza does...
 
Jrubbs said:
I think government center plaza has done well. Lots of events are held there.
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Down in Taunton, the dying Galleria Mall has a huge "overflow" lot that nobody parks in because nobody goes to the mall anymore. The hold multiple carnivals on that lot, some ethnic festivals, hobby events (BMX Bike racing, RC car races), etc. By your definition, that overflow lot is "doing well."

The reality is that any wide open empty paved space can host an event and attract people. That's not "doing well." For a public plaza in the heart of the city, the bar needs to be set a LOT higher. City Hall needs permanent activation- that shouldn't be too much to handle for Boston. The area around the Station, Sears Crescent and Sears Block is the only "activated" space on the plaza. The rest of it- outside of a big event- is a wasteland. It's a failure.

Ideally, you'd have that type of retail activation on all sides of the plaza. You'd also have the center of the plaza redesigned to be more inviting (trees, attractive spaces, seating, etc.). The architecture of City Hall itself doesn't lend itself to allowing for retail or activated civic space (a small museum/gallery with an entrance right on the plaza would work too) on the ground level, although that could change with some modifications to the building. The bigger obstacle is that the general nature of large government buildings is to shy away from that type of activation. There's just no chance that the JFK Building would EVER go for modifying the ground floor to support retail.

Some of the work that's recently completed/still ongoing along Cambridge Street and around the station is well done. I'm fascinated to see what happens with the new seating in front of the station near the active Sears Crescent. My guess is that people will use it heavily (assuming the weather ever cooperates). Contrasted with the always empty benches on the JFK side of the plaza, it'll be a glaring example of the importance of activation of the edges of the plaza.
 
To connect this with the current discussion on the Assembly Sq. thread, what about one or more well-sized, well-positioned kiosks/small structures that host retail/restaurant/bar space? Would that be too little use for this land?
 
It's going to take some clever actors and bold thinking to rid us of our brutalist hellholes.

start with a clean sheet of paper....

1. build the low section of the O'Neill Bldg to rise about 14 floors.

2. Build 1 Congress offices, and start moving .gov offices in; City, State, Federal, the whole smash ....(alt; either City offices, or Suffolk Court, or State could move into 1-3 Center Plaza for several-year stay)

3. Move the Fed.gov offices of
Elizabeth Warren,
Citizenship and Immigration Services
Department of Health & Human Services
Department of Labor
Department of Veterans Affairs
Immigration Court
IRS Taxpayer Service Division
Social Security Administration
to 1 Congress office tower

4. move Homeland Security
Drug Enforcement Administration
Federal Protective Services
to O'neal Bldg

5. move the Suffolk Court offices to the JFK Fed twin towers (or 1-3 Center Plaza)

6. bring dozens of 10,000 lb bombs and let 'er rip taking down
a. Suffolk Court tower
b. low section of the JFK office park
c. State Services bldg
d. City Hall inverted ziggurat

7. build a new Gaslight district w/ parks, History Museum, Athenaeum

8. insert the new highrise.gov towers, incl: new Suffolk Court tower, State Services, Fed.gov and City offices into the plan, and build.

9. include 4 or 5 resident highrises and skyscrapers.
 
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odurandina said:
It's going to take some clever actors to rid us of our brutalist hellholes.
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"brutalist hellholes" is so judgmental. How about "concrete-friendly places replete with a surplus of breeze and a lack of crowds."
 
I apologize in advance to the development gods for bringing this up in case its been mentioned previously, but what are the restrictions on tall buildings given the T tunnels underneath? As in is the MBTA underneath the entire plaza or are some sections unaffected?
 
Coyote137 said:
To connect this with the current discussion on the Assembly Sq. thread, what about one or more well-sized, well-positioned kiosks/small structures that host retail/restaurant/bar space? Would that be too little use for this land?
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It could definitely be better-served by a few well-placed kiosks close to the Cambridge Street Edge. Something like what you would find at Bryant Park. Local, close enough to the Cambridge Street pedestrian corridor and T Station to draw pedestrians in, and set back enough to encourage people to sit/enjoy their food/beverage in the plaza.

Of course, City Hall Plaza =/= Bryant Park and you'd also need to create a much more inviting atmosphere for people to want to stay (that's always been City Hall Plaza's problem). That means trees, some green (but not one giant lawn), tables and chairs, etc. It would improve the activity, I just don't think it would be enough to make it a great urban space which is really what the goal should be.

The area I don't know how you could improve without completely imploding it is the JFK Building side (essentially the extension of Hanover Street between Congress and Cambridge). It's not nearly as active from a pedestrian standpoint, and I don't know that people will wander that far into the plaza just for a sandwich or a coffee. I have no solution for that other than to level the building and start from scratch.

*Edited to add*
While Bryant Park is a better urban space, it's a good model for how to activate edges and still keep space for special events/activities. The central lawn at Bryant Park is where numerous events are held as well as ice skating in the winter. City Hall Plaza would be wise to follow that lead in any sort of major overhaul. Focus on creating more inviting spaces on the perimeter and keep the middle open (but definitely resurfaced) so it can still host big events (like Boston Winter Market, Ice Skating, Scooper Bowl, etc.).
 
Rover said:
I apologize in advance to the development gods for bringing this up in case its been mentioned previously, but what are the restrictions on tall buildings given the T tunnels underneath? As in is the MBTA underneath the entire plaza or are some sections unaffected?
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It's difficult but not impossible to get a sense of this if you go look up the plans for the government center rebuild, and also search for "MBTA Brattle Loop diagram". With those two, you can sort of get a sense of where the loop tunnel is, and also how the main green line then snakes thru over to Haymarket.

Possibly someone upthread superimposed it onto the plaza in some prior post.

It's too shallow to withstand buildings right on top of it. If you were trying to fill as much of the plaza as you could with buildings, avoiding both the Brattle loop and the tunnel over to Haymarket would chop your buildable space up into some odd configurations. It would end up being very Bostonian, in my opinion.
 
I know there are existing weight limits and certainly other considerations on the tunnels (such as the issues with the leaking fountain), but I wish that any major redevelopment of the Plaza could include rethinking the status quo for area T stations as well, similar to the WTC Transportation Hub opportunity.

The Plaza sits on 3 of 4 major rapid transit lines, and could easily be a convenient central link for Blue, Green, and Orange. This isn't unprecedented - the nearby stations are webs of consolidations, such as State and Milk. It would be great to unify the platforms under the Plaza area to facilitate quick transfers, and many of the existing portals could be simplified to moving walkways to bring people in and out. This megaplatform could be coordinated with developers and/or involve upgrading/replacing/moving the tunnels, so that all future development isn't strictly limited to the existing weight capacity of the ancient Brattle Loop or so on.
 
MjolnirMan said:
I know there are existing weight limits and certainly other considerations on the tunnels (such as the issues with the leaking fountain), but I wish that any major redevelopment of the Plaza could include rethinking the status quo for area T stations as well, similar to the WTC Transportation Hub opportunity.

The Plaza sits on 3 of 4 major rapid transit lines, and could easily be a convenient central link for Blue, Green, and Orange. This isn't unprecedented - the nearby stations are webs of consolidations, such as State and Milk. It would be great to unify the platforms under the Plaza area to facilitate quick transfers, and many of the existing portals could be simplified to moving walkways to bring people in and out. This megaplatform could be coordinated with developers and/or involve upgrading/replacing/moving the tunnels, so that all future development isn't strictly limited to the existing weight capacity of the ancient Brattle Loop or so on.
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They just spent a ton of money rebuilding Government Station. Transfers among Blue / Green / Orange already exist, they're just not in one mega station as you propose. Your mega-platform money would be better spent doing the Red/Blue connection, which has never existed, and which couldn't be worked in to that mega-platform.
 
West said:
the schematics you linked to are out of date. When Govt Center was torn up the rail routing was re-aligned. Those old ones don't show the Brattle Loop, which was created during all that realignment, and is the main consumer of space under the plaza.
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You can see the tunnel locations (including Brattle) shaded slightly darker in this MBTA slide of the Gov't Center project:
http://i.imgur.com/mwgad6V.jpg

West said:
They just spent a ton of money rebuilding Government Station. Transfers among Blue / Green / Orange already exist, they're just not in one mega station as you propose. Your mega-platform money would be better spent doing the Red/Blue connection, which has never existed, and which couldn't be worked in to that mega-platform.
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I'd characterize that as a refurbishing over a rebuilding (except the above-ground headhouse), but I was talking in context to "how do you rebuild the entire plaza from scratch over the web of Green, Blue, and Orange tunnels somehow". In this case, it makes sense to use that restriction as an attribute. The entire plaza is zoned by the FAA for >700', so trying to build usefully in the space without touching any tunnels seems very restrictive versus incorporating a (really, truly) new station as part of the foundational layers.

This would serve the new complex at the intersection of Boston's business and tourism districts with something better than the crazy hike through State station. It additionally improves the whole system by culling some extraneous stops a few feet from each other (Green consolidates Haymarket and Gov't, Orange does State and Haymarket, Blue does State and Gov't). All existing entrances could still be used a la the Park/DTX labyrinth, but the actual time-sensitive line switching happens in close proximity, so no more commuters running at a full clip in pencil skirts.

Agreed that Blue/Red is a comparatively easy, high-priority project. I know this is more of a "crazy transit pitch" but generally fits long-term and large-scale City Hall Plaza Redevelopment ideas. As a bonus, the proposed station location for NSRL North combined with the length of its deep escalators means this could even potentially reach that project via Haymarket:
http://i.imgur.com/Aow5fwP.jpg
 
The tunnels under City Hall Plaza would not present a significant problem to developing the Plaza with buildings and streets. If Hanover Street were extended to Cambridge Street, then that would take care of one major old tunnel which would run directly under the extended street. The other tunnels under City Hall Plaza are 1960's construction, fairly stout tunnels given their newer vintage. At worst, buildings over them would be low rise. No big deal, as that would leave plenty of acreage for high rise buildings not over the tunnels, creating a desirable mix of low and high rise, along with a dense network of small streets.

The only other old tunnel runs parallel and slightly to the east of Cambridge Street, due to that street being shifted slightly west when GC was built. If need be, a setback along Cambridge Street would accommodate that tunnel, or the tunnel itself could be realigned to follow the present day Cambridge Street. Or a third option: move Cambridge Street back to its original location over the tunnel, which would create a larger lot on its west side to replace 1-2-3 Center Plaza with some decent buildings.

So, the tunnels are basically not a problem for development of the entire City Hall Plaza. I would be in favor of retaining a smaller plaza in the area of the GC Headhouse, surrounded by new groundfloor retail and a mix of low and high rise office and residential.
 
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Charlie_mta said:
The tunnels under City Hall Plaza would not present a significant problem to developing the Plaza with buildings and streets. If Hanover Street were extended to Cambridge Street, then that would take care of one major old tunnel which would run directly under the extended street. The other tunnels under City Hall Plaza are 1960's construction, fairly stout tunnels given their newer vintage. At worst, buildings over them would be low rise. No big deal, as that would leave plenty of acreage for high rise buildings not over the tunnels, creating a desirable mix of low and high rise, along with a dense network of small streets.

The only other old tunnel runs parallel and slightly to the east of Cambridge Street, due to that street being shifted slightly west when GC was built. If need be, a setback along Cambridge Street would accommodate that tunnel, or the tunnel itself could be realigned to follow the present day Cambridge Street. Or a third option: move Cambridge Street back to its original location over the tunnel, which would create a larger lot on its west side to replace 1-2-3 Center Plaza with some decent buildings.

So, the tunnels are basically not a problem for development of the entire City Hall Plaza. I would be in favor of retaining a smaller plaza in the area of the GC Headhouse, surrounded by new groundfloor retail and a mix of low and high rise office and residential.
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The tunnels under Government Center are not really an engineering constraint to any construction. You can span over them much the way it was proposed for the Copley Place Tower over the Turnpike and NEC rail lines.

But much like that tower, the need to do that much engineering and creative structural support is a cost constraint for significant height development over the entire plaza.
 
First thing to go in the plaza should be 1-3 Center Plaza. Stop hiding the courthouses behind that wall.
 
Totally agree! Most people don't even know about that beautiful building because they have never seen it.
 
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