City Hall Discussion - Redevelopment - Preservation - Relocation

ablarc said:
Can't believe this.

Here we are on a forum of supposed architecture enthusiasts and most are howling for the destruction of Boston's most significant 20th Century building.

Tell me it ain't so.

To be fair, it's more of a debate as to whether or not City Hall truly is Boston's most significant 20th Century building, which is a quite appropriate discussion for architecture enthusiasts.

With that said, this is always one of my favorite debate on these boards, except for some reason the always seem to devolves into some idiotic "egg head elitist" vs "philistine, unwashed masses" debate.
Hopefully we can continue to the discuss the merits and failures on the building itself and leave each other out of it.
There is also the issue of a new City Hall on the waterfront to discuss.
Personally I think it a stupid idea. That land is too valuable for a government building. Plus T access will be much more limited. Although someone I was talking to thought it was a great idea because now "there will be parking and people can drive to city hall!" :roll:
 
That land is too valuable for a government building.

But isn't the current City Hall location more "valuable land" than the proposed new site? The proposal relies on this difference of value in order to finance itself.
 
Ron Newman said:
That land is too valuable for a government building.

But isn't the current City Hall location more "valuable land" than the proposed new site? The proposal relies on this difference of value in order to finance itself.
Right. I have no problem with moving City Hall, but I think it should be to a less valuable parcel. I've been trying to figure out where a good location might be but I haven't come up with anything yet. Criteria include: centrally located, T accessable and less vauable than Government Center or waterfront property. Maybe somewhere in the Chinatown/theater district area?
 
How about the post office annex next to South Station? One could construct a couple of mid size towers there to relocate not only the city government, but also consolidate all the half empty federal buildings into a single, high security building.
 
The Globe said:
Mayor says he'll build waterfront City Hall
S. Boston site; current location to be developed

By Matt Viser and Donovan Slack, Globe Staff | December 13, 2006

Mayor Thomas M. Menino , saying he wants to make a statement that will lead Boston into the future, announced he intends to build an "architecturally magnificent" City Hall on the South Boston waterfront, an undertaking that would turn over to developers the current controversial behemoth on City Hall Plaza and shift the locus of city government to a more remote outpost of the city.

"This new building will bring together the city's past and its future, at a site that unites the history of our harbor with the promise of tomorrow's Boston," Menino told business leaders at a breakfast gathering at the Fairmont Copley Hotel.

But the plans, like the building that currently houses City Hall, drew sharply divided reactions. Community leaders including Senator Jack Hart of South Boston hailed it as visionary. But city workers worried about longer commutes to the waterfront, and residents, accustomed to their government's central location near stops on four subway lines, wondered about parking and access by public transportation.

"Let me see, how to say this delicately: I don't think this is a good idea," said Thomas H. O'Connor, a South Boston native who has written several books on Boston's history, including "Building A New Boston: Politics and Urban Renewal."

"It's supposed to be a teeming, busy City Hall, and he's going to stick it way the hell out on the peninsula in South Boston, where it will be all alone?" he said.

The Brutalist style concrete City Hall of the present has been the butt of jokes and an object of scorn for decades, even as it wins continuing praise from architects and critics. But confronted with the possibility of losing it, some spoke with nostalgia yesterday.

"It is ugly, but it's just something that's always been there," said Paula Bakerian, 35, a native Bostonian. "That's like trying to rip down Fenway Park."

Menino has long disliked the present City Hall, a massive concrete building that some have compared to a prison, along with the windswept expanse of brick that surrounds it. His past attempts to improve it -- a proposed restaurant, a roof garden to help regulate its extremes in temperature -- mostly fell short, and two previous attempts to relocate fizzled. But Menino says he is now committed.

Calling the project "The Gateway to Boston at the Harborside," Menino said he wants it to recall the city's maritime history. And with 1,200 city employees coming to the area daily, he said, it would help invigorate the emerging waterfront business district. Menino told the business leaders he wants to break ground on the project within the next 18 months at a 13-acre city-owned parcel called Drydock Four, currently used by the Bank of America Pavilion. The pavilion would probably be moved to a location nearby, he said.

"The bustle of this building will increase the activity of those new blocks, creating the vitality we envisioned not so long ago, when the waterfront was still just a string of parking lots," Menino said.

The mayor was also clearly inspired by the new Institute of Contemporary Art on the waterfront, referencing the new building twice in his speech and saying he wants to mimic its "coexistence with its environment, and the experience it offers to visitors."

Responses from employees in City Hall yesterday varied from delight to skepticism, from "Oooh! That's a good idea!" to "I'll believe it when I see it." One woman said she would rather drive than take the Silver Line. "If we move I'm going to make sure they give me a parking spot," she said.

Waterfront business owners said they were concerned with the prospect of increased traffic in the neighborhood, while residents focused on the longer trip to the new site.

Currently, residents can easily get to City Hall by taking the Blue or Green lines to Government Center, or the Orange or Red lines to Downtown Crossing. To visit City Hall in its new location, residents would have to take the Silver Line from South Station to the Silver Line Way stop. It took a Globe reporter 21 minutes yesterday to ride the T from Government Center to South Station and then the Silver Line to the proposed location in South Boston.

Views from the city-owned property include fishing boats and Logan Airport's control tower across the harbor, and any majestic view of the downtown skyline is blocked by buildings at Boston Fish Pier. But it is in an area of South Boston that has been rapidly changing, with new condominiums and rest aurants moving in next to industrial parks and fishing plants.

Yesterday's announcement fueled additional political speculation about Menino, widely thought to be in his final term in office.

"This raises speculation if he goes forward with this," said Sam R. Tyler, president of the Boston Municipal Research Bureau. In order to oversee the building of a new City Hall -- which would be a major stamp on Menino's legacy -- he would have to stay for at least one more term, some said.

"It is rare for a fourth-term mayor, especially a fourth-term mayor that's 60-something years old, to come up with these ideas," said Lawrence S. DiCara , a former city councilor. "I think part of this is a message from Tom to the world: 'I'm not hanging it up yet.' "

Matt Viser can be reached at maviser@globe.com. Donovan Slack can be reached at dslack@globe.com.
Link

The Globe said:
Opportunity in two prime urban sectors

By Thomas C. Palmer Jr., Globe Staff | December 13, 2006

Mayor Thomas M. Menino's proposal to relocate City Hall could transform downtown Boston by rebuilding one of the city's most reviled public spaces and democratizing the South Boston waterfront district, which is emerging as an exclusive neighborhood of law firms, conventioneers, and swanky restaurants.

Selling the present City Hall, which squats on a corner of nine prime acres of real estate, would offer developers an unprecedented opportunity to fill a hole in downtown. While Boston officials estimate the property could fetch $400 million, real estate executives declined to put a price tag on it because its value depends on what the city allows to be built there.

"It's enormous, and I'd hate to even speculate," said Rob Griffin , president of Cushman & Wakefield of Massachusetts Inc. "To aggregate nine acres in the center of the city like that would be unheard of."

Meantime, Menino's proposal for a modern -- and more functional -- City Hall at a dry dock on the South Boston waterfront would add a major destination to a former industrial neighborhood still unfamiliar to some city residents, and provide a contrast to the mostly high-priced properties taking root there.

The city already owns 13 acres of land at Drydock Four, southeast of the World Trade Center, which it rents to the Bank of America Pavilion concert facility. Menino said he would like to see the pavilion remain on the property after the new City Hall is built. Boston Redevelopment Authority officials yesterday estimated that selling the current City Hall property would generate enough money to finance a $300 million environmentally friendly structure that Menino predicted would be "architecturally magnificent."

Menino's administration has pushed developers to design stylish buildings, so the new City Hall is likely to look more like the glassy new Institute of Contemporary Art on the waterfront than the 1960s brick and concrete bunker it would replace.

This is the second major development initiative Menino has unveiled this year. In February, he challenged developers for proposals for a 1,000-foot tower to be built on the site of a parking garage in the Financial District that the city intends to sell. Menino yesterday appeared to trump himself with his City Hall proposal.

"I want to improve the downtown public realm -- create greater unity and beauty for our residents -- and I want to push the redevelopment of the waterfront past the tipping point," he said in a speech before the Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce.

It certainly had an impact.

"I almost fell out of my seat," David I. Begelfer , chief executive of the National Association of Industrial and Office Properties' regional chapter, said after Menino unleashed his stunning announcement at the Chamber breakfast yesterday morning. "The competition for this site will be international -- it's the most valuable piece of property in Boston, in the center of the city."

Menino did not say what should happen to the current City Hall -- whether it should be demolished, for example -- but said whatever does gets built on the site should include a mix of uses that would fill in the gaping and underused downtown space. Such a redevelopment would rejoin the Faneuil Hall Marketplace area to Beacon Hill in the same way demolition of the elevated Central Artery helped reconnect Boston Harbor to downtown.

Menino said he will start the design process for the new City Hall early next year. He did not set a timetable for selling the property, but in the meantime developers are expected to be drawing up proposals for possible replacements there.

As sizable as Menino's ambition for the current City Hall Plaza is, Kyle B. Warwick , New England regional director for the real estate firm Jones Lang LaSalle, said the industry has the resources to match it.

"We're seeing an unprecedented capital flow into Boston, and the money is turning toward more 'opportunistic' transactions like land development," he said.

The value of the City Hall site, which four decades ago was part of the replacement for colorful but seedy Scollay Square, depends on how much and what could be built there. The Green Line MBTA corridor running underneath may limit development, but a proposal in 2003 to excavate part of the plaza for a parking garage was considered viable.

The current City Hall building and desert-like emptiness of the red-brick plaza outside have been widely criticized as inhospitable. In 2004, the Project for Public Spaces, a New York nonprofit, put City Hall Plaza in its "Hall of Shame," calling it "one of the most disappointing places in America."

Still, some questioned whether moving City Hall to the waterfront would bring new life to that neighborhood.

"Other than showing a dissatisfaction for City Hall where it is, I don't see a logic," said Alex Krieger , chief executive of Chan Krieger Sieniewicz , an architectural firm. Though the waterfront is "bereft of urban public life," he said, "I'm not sure people going to get their marriage licenses are going to change all that."

But Vivien Li , executive director of the Boston Harbor Association, called Menino's proposal "bold" and said she was "pleased to welcome the mayor to the part of the city that's going to be the 21st century."

After years of fits and starts, the South Boston waterfront has recently seen progress with the opening of the new ICA museum, the Westin Boston Waterfront Hotel, the Park Lane Seaport residences, and restaurants such as Legal Test Kitchen.

Bruce Berman of the nonprofit group Save the Harbor/Save the Bay said he started getting phone calls from people "within four minutes" of Menino's speech.

"They said this could change everything if it happens," said Berman. "What a spectacular and very public use for the harbor," he said. "City Hall during the day and the Pavilion at night."

Thomas C. Palmer Jr. can be reached at tpalmer@globe.com.
Link
The Globe said:
What next, Mr. Mayor?

By Steve Bailey, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006

Our Mayor For Life wants you to know that he is not out of gas. Not at all.

In February, speaking before a packed house at the annual Boston Municipal Research Bureau luncheon, our MFL unveiled his cry for attention, I mean, Big Idea: a 1,000-foot downtown tower, a symbol of "the full scope of this city's greatness." Yesterday morning, before another packed breakfast crowd at the Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce, MFL offered another Big Idea: selling City Hall and building a new one on the waterfront. He wisely omitted the words "on budget and on time."

No fourth-termitis for this administration. MFL has a packed calendar of high-profile events coming up, and needs something surprising to say. Otherwise someone might be inclined to ask him why city residents are paying ever-higher property taxes and getting less for their money. Or what he's doing about the slaughter of black people by black people in Roxbury and Dorchester.

Next month, MFL gives his 14th State of the City address. According to well-placed City Hall sources, MFL will use the occasion to roll out yet another Big Idea: an elaborate canal system in the shape of seagull in flight that will at long last link the Charles, the Neponset, and the Muddy rivers into a seamless 16th-century transportation network and bring a little Italy to all of Boston. The preliminary plan, which MFL is said to have sketched out on a napkin at Mike's City Diner, calls for duck-boat-like gondolas, "Tommy's Tours," to navigate the canals. There will also be limited use of Jet Skis, party barges, and water slides where appropriate. MFL pal Connie Kastelnik is said to have the inside track on the Jet Ski concession.

MFL's brain trust is still vetting Big Ideas for the mayor's return engagement before the Municipal Research Bureau in March. Among Big Ideas under active discussion, say City Hall sources: a soaring Tower of Mumble on the Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy Greenway or a Sphinx -like monument in the likeness of the MFL in the neighborhoods, most likely his beloved Readville. Residents are urged to call in their Big Ideas to City Hall at 617-635-4000. The Big Deadline is Feb. 1.

City Hall has problems, but it could be fixed. We had a reasonable plan on the table a decade ago. But it is ultimately the builders, not the fixers, who are remembered. And the most important part of really Big Ideas like these: Anyone who starts a job this big can't possibly leave before it's done. It wouldn't be right. How long will it take to complete a new City Hall or the canals? Another term? Or two? Or three?

Once upon a time, MFL was derided as Mayor Pothole, a guy who lacked vision but whose heart was firmly in the neighborhoods. But at some point, even MFL knows when he is closer to the end than the beginning, and it comes time to think legacy. If you can't do anything about the neighborhood killing fields or rising property taxes, better to focus on what you can -- building a monument. Or two. Or three.

Steve Bailey is a Globe columnist. He can be reached at bailey@globe.com or at 617-929-2902.
Link
 
Statler: how about the empty land in front of the New Boston Garden -- or the empty land on Nashua Street behind it? (Spaulding Rehab is moving out soon.) While you're at it, move the occupants of the Suffolk County Jail on Nashua Street to the House of Correction in South Bay.

If you put less of a premium on 'centrally located', build it on the Roxbury Community College parking lots along the Orange Line.

Sargent's Wharf, along Commercial Street in the North End, is quite prominently undeveloped. But it's a long walk from transit lines.
 
Ron Newman said:
Statler: how about the empty land in front of the New Boston Garden

Sounds good to me.
The other sites sound like good possiblities as well.
 
The Herald said:
Mayor aims to sell city hall, move to waterfront
By Scott Van Voorhis
Boston Herald Business Reporter
Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - Updated: 12:48 AM EST

Mayor Thomas M. Menino yesterday unveiled a stunning plan to sell Boston?s City Hall and City Hall Plaza and move the seat of city government to the fast-growing South Boston waterfront.
Boston?s new city headquarters could be ready to open for business in four to five years, Menino told business leaders at a Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
Under Menino?s plan, the new City Hall, pegged at a cost of about $300 million, would open up on the Drydock Four site now occupied by the Bank of America Pavilion just off Northern Avenue.
Menino said he already is thinking about the design of Boston?s new waterfront City Hall, which would offer sweeping views of Boston Harbor.
Still, the mayor?s dreams of a new waterfront headquarters face significant hurdles.
One major drawback of the South Boston site is accessibility and the relative dearth of public transportation lines.
City Hall Plaza sits atop the Government Center subway hub, where the Blue and Green lines converge. By contrast, the proposed site of the new City Hall, in the city-owned Boston Marine Industrial Complex, is served by the fledgling Silver Line bus.
But city officials say they already are sketching out new transportation possibilities, including water- taxi service to the new government complex.
Vivien Li, head of the Boston Harbor Association, said an upgrade of the Silver Line from bus service to light rail also might be needed to ensure easy access.
Menino would have to win approval from City Hall?s development arm, the Boston Redevelopment Authority, to sell the building and plaza. He also would have to win approval from state enviromental regulators for a new City Hall on the waterfront.
A move to the waterfront could open up a major real estate opportunity in Boston.
Menino said he will seek top dollar for the prime, roughly nine- acre windswept plaza, now occupied by the 1960s-era City Hall.
Menino said he expects the bidding to start at $300 million - and go up from there. He would not rule out the possibility the land could fetch as much as $500 million. Developers suggest it may be worth less than that but acknowledge the site is valuable.
The mayor said he hopes the new city headquarters would borrow a page from the Institute of Contempary Art?s sleek new glass and steel building at nearby Fan Pier.The proposed site ?will sustain an architecturally magnificent structure, as well as wonderful open space along the water?s edge,? Menino said.
Moving City Hall to the South Boston Waterfront could fuel new development on the key stretch of harborfront across Fort Point Channel from Boston?s financial district. It?s an area now home to an $800 million-plus convention center and a growing number of new hotel, condo and office high-rises.
City officials are exploring plans for a permanent concert venue/meeting hall on the site as well.
Boston City Hall is currently home to 1,200 workers.
?The bustle of this building will increase activity on those new blocks, creating the vitality we envisioned not so long ago, when the waterfront was still just a string of parking lots,? Menino told business leaders yesterday.
The decision to sell City Hall is shaping up to be just one part of a major revamp of Boston?s city government footprint. Some workers also may be shifted to a new city office building in the works in Roxbury?s Dudley Square. City officials also plan to explore the sale of a Court Street building where the Boston School Department is now based.
Link
The Herald said:
Bombshell sale would make Hub history
By Scott Van Voorhis
Boston Herald Business Reporter
Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - Updated: 08:24 AM EST

Mayor Thomas M. Menino, with his bombshell that he plans to sell City Hall and the sorry plaza in front, has put into play what could be the biggest single development project in Boston history.
Menino unleashed his thunderbolt announcement before a crowd of downtown executives at a breakfast meeting of the Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce.
By the time he got back to his fifth-floor office in the concrete bunker city government calls home, Menino said he had a stack of messages from business executives and real estate types.
Menino appears to have had a change of heart since downplaying the idea of selling City Hall when I suggested it in a column last month.
Developers are already talking up the idea of a massive mix of office, condo and hotel high-rises, with 5 million square feet or more.
?I have lots of feedback already, the mayor said.
Menino wasn?t offering up names. But Hub real estate insiders were already drawing up a list of likely contenders for what some are billing as the development opportunity of a lifetime.
At least one top developer, veteran tower builder John Hynes, is already throwing his hat in the ring. Hynes, who built the new State Street headquarters tower near South Station, already has his hands full.
The grandson of a legendary Boston mayor and son of newscaster Jack Hynes is overseeing the redevelopment of the landmark Filene?s complex and drawing up plans for a new neighborhood on South Boston?s waterfront.
But he would make room on his plate to take a swing at redeveloping the 9-acre City Hall site.
?Are you kidding me?? an incredulous Hynes responded when asked if he was interested.?Oh? yeah, I am.?
Still, he?s likely to have some fierce competition.
Other players seen as likely to line up for a shot at this deal include New York?s Tishman Speyer Properties; Prudential Center owner Boston Properties, headed by media mogul Mortimer Zuckerman; and Forest City, known for ambitious mini-city plans.
There?s also an obvious local possibility as well: Alan Leventhal, son of pioneering Boston developer Norman Leventhal and head of a multibillion-dollar Beacon Capital real estate empire.
Norman and his son Alan are best known for Boston landmarks such as Rowes Wharf and the acclaimed Post Office Square park and garage. Norman, meanwhile, served on a mayoral task forced that looked at ways to redevelop City Hall Plaza.
The site is also large enough to attract players from around the world, including investors from both Asia and Europe, Hynes said.
Why so much interest in a windswept piece of property that?s been long reviled as a failure?
Big cities are not creating new land downtown anymore, with few comparable opportunities in other major cities nationally, and maybe beyond. It?s like New York City opening up part of Central Park for tower developers.
?This is city building time,? said top Boston attorney and one-time City Councilor Larry DiCara.
Link
The Herald said:
Plaza plea: Save the brutalism!
By Jay Fitzgerald
Boston Herald General Economics Reporter
Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - Updated: 06:50 AM EST

Perhaps it?s not economically viable.
But I say to those who want to sell and tear down the new Boston City Hall: Save the brutalism!
There?s no doubt that City Hall Plaza as a whole is a disaster - and I can?t blame Mayor Thomas M. Menino for wanting to vacate the ?new? City Hall for Southie, as he proposed yesterday.
But the key words are ?as a whole? when it comes to City Hall Plaza.
There?s no problem with the exterior design of the ?brutalist modern? City Hall, opened in the late 1960s. It?s the desolate plaza outside and utterly depressing interior that numb the soul.


How bad is the vast brick plaza? It was recently put on the Project for Public Spaces? ?Hall of Shame? as one of the worst public gathering places in America.
Let?s not get into the dreary interior, which would make even Bobby ?Don?t Worry Be Happy? McFerrin beg for Prozac if he had to work there every day.
The problem with City Hall Plaza ?as a whole? can be traced to the guiding 1960s philosophy of its architects, Kallmann, McKinnell and Knowles, who reveled in their ?brutalist modern? views.
?We have moved,? architect Gerhard Kallmann once wrote, ?toward an architecture that is specific and concrete, involving itself with the social and geographic context, the program, and methods of construction, in order to produce a building that exists strongly and irrevocably, rather than an uncommitted abstract structure that could be any place and, therefore, like modern man - without identity or presence.?
Brutalalist modern design distilled into brutalist prose.
But sometimes even those trying to shock the bourgeois get things right, and in this case the exterior of ?new? City Hall is striking, original and memorable.
I?m not alone in believing that the exterior has its own elegance. The building has won numerous design awards and is consistently ranked as one of the best buildings of the century.
Saving City Hall might not be a popular idea with developers. Preserving the shell of the building - while gutting the interior and replacing the brick plaza with a beautiful public garden of some sort - would cost millions.
Mayor Menino wants to sell the whole plaza to pay for a ?new new? City Hall in Southie.
But think about it: Do you really believe yet another new drab skyscraper will enhance the post-City Hall Plaza area? Do you really trust the same city government that OK?d the current City Hall Plaza to get it right the second time around in Southie?
A more pragmatic approach has always been to fix what should have been fixed decades ago.
Link
 
statler: what we're forgetting is that the city already owns the South Boston pier parcel. To build on most of the sites we're suggesting would cost real money.
 
Ron Newman said:
statler: what we're forgetting is that the city already owns the South Boston pier parcel. To build on most of the sites we're suggesting would cost real money.
Yeah, I did think of that. I know the City owns a lot of land around town, but I don't which specific parcels they have and which might work as a site for a new City Hall. Plus, long-term they would make more in property tax on waterfront property then what they would spend on buying private land.
 
I can't think of any parcel that's centrally located that would be big enough (besides the Hynes) to house city hall. They could always make city hall taller, instead of wider though. I'm assuming significant infrastructure would have to be built along with city hall though - like the big garage underneath gov center and the like.
 
Toronto, mentioned earlier, is a good example of a high-rise city hall.
 
The buildings at both the new city hall, and the old city hall would need to be world class!

I mean legit world class too...not something that will go away in 20 years.
 
This is some of the most promising news out of city hall in years in regards to municipal infrastructure. I too have thought the Hynes would be a fine location for this project, but with that appearing to be staying around, another idea I have thought of is the possibility of doing an air rights development over the pike at mass. ave behind 360 Newbury. Does anyone think this is feasible or at least a superior option to South Boston?
 
city_hall.jpg

Toronto City Hall

Tokyo_City_Hall-Tower-1-2.jpg

Tokyo City Hall (798 feet - JHT is 790 ft)
 
I hope we've heard the last of the idea of tearing down the Hynes. It is a well-designed, well-used, and well-liked building, in exactly the location it belongs.
 
kmp1284 said:
.... another idea I have thought of is the possibility of doing an air rights development over the pike at mass. ave behind 360 Newbury. Does anyone think this is feasible or at least a superior option to South Boston?

Seems feasible. I wonder how that would work out? Would the State just grant the city the rights? Would they make them pay fair market value? Do the city have ED powers over the Turnpike Auth?
 
That's what I am wondering; what would the acquisition process be in such a situation. Parking would certainly become an issue, but that should not be the primary factor in determining location.
 

Back
Top