I'm not sure we have enough congestion in a CBD itself to warrant a congestion charge scheme. We have a ton of traffic - buts it's mostly on 93 and nowhere to park once you get here. peak Tolls & parking reform should go a long way towards raising revenue that can be used to improve MBTA options.
Congestion toll in Boston?
- Thread starter statler
- Start date
TallIsGood
Active Member
- Joined
- May 30, 2006
- Messages
- 525
- Reaction score
- 122
My first point was that we have continually earmarked more and more revenue to the T and it always claims that it is chronically underfunded. How does money solve, for example, the problem of not planning for new rail cars until it is too late?
My second point was that the T can't get new cars fast enough. Once it really needs new cars, it starts the procurement process. They can't get new cars and capacity that quickly.
kevtron2000
New member
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2014
- Messages
- 97
- Reaction score
- 0
Wouldn't critics say that congestion tolling will increase congestion and just takes away taxpayer money?
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2012
- Messages
- 5,078
- Reaction score
- 1,658
How would it increase congestion?
They wanted to replace the ol fleet at the same time as the bl fleet. They weren't allowed to...
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 5,599
- Reaction score
- 2,710
Not plausibly.
Please read up on how London's worked much better than skeptics believed (there's always going to be some implacable critics, but mostly the whole of London sees why the charge has been good)
We're talking barrier-free / plate-reading gantries that enforce the toll perimeter, so there's no "backup at the tolls"
Whatever you charge more for, you sell less of...in this case, congestion tolls charge more for car-movements on downtown roads. The price acts as a disincentive to use/purchase that "space" and also deters using your car outside the perimeter to get in (i.e. if the charge has kept your car out of the center, your most likely response is to park it a home or a park-and-ride, not to drive to the threshold of the core).
Like this:
Where the white line is the London Congestion-Charge Zone, and red is everyplace that car trips fell from 2001 to 2008
So a congestion charge not only decongests the endpoint of CBD commutes, it also decongests the radial roads leading inward.
Is it a tax? Calling it a user fee is probably clearer...you are charging a dynamic, time-of-day price for a scarce asset (downtown road space). Most taxes aren't quite that market oriented. And really, most of the people who drive to the CBD are wealthy exectutives. For Manhattan, for example, the people who drive in to Manhattan at congested times are estimated to make about 34% more than the average (median?) New Yorker. Either way, it is a small number of rich people clogging the roads that'd better be used for trucks (in which we all partake the goods they ship) and buses (which lots of people use)
And motorists who value their time and enjoy driving faster end up liking it too. If you are an exec downtown who makes {edit:$100/hr,} (a $200k salary) paying $10 to save a half hour of commuting is a bargain
Last edited:
$1,000/hour = $40,000/week = $2MM, not $200k salary
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 5,599
- Reaction score
- 2,710
Yes, extra zero. Point stands at most executive wages ($100/hr or $70/hr after tax) that the value of time saved is well worth the congestion charge--happily paid and readily devoted to speeding the non-car commutes too. Everyone's commutes get faster and the time wasted in commuting gets turned into work or leisure. And you save a lot of gasoline previously wasted on idling
'Speeding the travel of executives' is frankly not a very good argument for congestion pricing. Maybe it will appeal to the 1%, but there are plenty of good arguments that can appeal to everyone else.
The money and resources that can be devoted to quality, reliable public transit is one such argument. The improvement of delivery and emergency services is another. But also you should consider that congestion pricing creates a service that cannot be really offered any other way: the ability to travel point-to-point reliably in a motor vehicle.
Right now in Boston you can walk, bicycle, take the MBTA, drive, unicycle, ski, or whatever. Many people who stick to walk/bike/T sometimes take a taxi service/ZipCar/other car when they have a particular urgency or a trip that is otherwise awkward. We pay the extra dollars for the convenience and the speed, at will. But oftentimes driving is unreliable because of congestion, one of its main downfalls. Well, congestion pricing buys you the ability to have reliable drives. And that's useful for anyone, not just "rich executives" but anyone who needs to travel rapidly and without delay. That probably won't be every day, but it's nice to have when you need it. Oh, and by the way, you get great public transit funding, along with street improvements, as a bonus.
The money and resources that can be devoted to quality, reliable public transit is one such argument. The improvement of delivery and emergency services is another. But also you should consider that congestion pricing creates a service that cannot be really offered any other way: the ability to travel point-to-point reliably in a motor vehicle.
Right now in Boston you can walk, bicycle, take the MBTA, drive, unicycle, ski, or whatever. Many people who stick to walk/bike/T sometimes take a taxi service/ZipCar/other car when they have a particular urgency or a trip that is otherwise awkward. We pay the extra dollars for the convenience and the speed, at will. But oftentimes driving is unreliable because of congestion, one of its main downfalls. Well, congestion pricing buys you the ability to have reliable drives. And that's useful for anyone, not just "rich executives" but anyone who needs to travel rapidly and without delay. That probably won't be every day, but it's nice to have when you need it. Oh, and by the way, you get great public transit funding, along with street improvements, as a bonus.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 5,599
- Reaction score
- 2,710
Agreed. And yes, anyone who ever wants to speed their car trip by paying the charge ($4? $8?) will likely consider it a bargain...saving them from being late for a rare-but-valuable event like a interview or just speeding the everyday commute (which will mostly be used by the 1% (or top 5%).
As you point out it creates a way of beating traffic that is, today, not available at any price short of a helicopter ride.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 5,599
- Reaction score
- 2,710
Re: General MBTA Discussion Thread
Rifleman, No class struggle nonsense, please.
The $5 fee, when somebody else pays it, goes to fund transit that everyone uses. And the bus moves faster in less traffic
The $5 fee, when you pay it, helps you get to a job interview or other key event by car that, today, you'd have to have a helicopter or a fancy apartment to get there faster.
Rifleman, No class struggle nonsense, please.
The $5 fee, when somebody else pays it, goes to fund transit that everyone uses. And the bus moves faster in less traffic
The $5 fee, when you pay it, helps you get to a job interview or other key event by car that, today, you'd have to have a helicopter or a fancy apartment to get there faster.
TheRifleman
Banned
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2008
- Messages
- 4,431
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: General MBTA Discussion Thread
No Class struggle nonsense? Are you serious what city do you live in?
The only people paying the $5.00 will be the working shmuck trying to get in and out of the city to go to work.
I'm all for the state taking out a 100Billion dollar bond out for Massive MBTA infrastructure change as long as there is accountability to make the system efficient for the working class and would also help with housing affordability around the state.
THE MBTA is key to a better quality of life for all citizens of mass which could really help with housing affordability outside the city.
1/2 the Seaport along with Cambridge mass is owned by Shell Corporations and International investors. How is that working out for the locals?
No Class struggle nonsense? Are you serious what city do you live in?
The only people paying the $5.00 will be the working shmuck trying to get in and out of the city to go to work.
I'm all for the state taking out a 100Billion dollar bond out for Massive MBTA infrastructure change as long as there is accountability to make the system efficient for the working class and would also help with housing affordability around the state.
THE MBTA is key to a better quality of life for all citizens of mass which could really help with housing affordability outside the city.
1/2 the Seaport along with Cambridge mass is owned by Shell Corporations and International investors. How is that working out for the locals?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 5,599
- Reaction score
- 2,710
Re: General MBTA Discussion Thread
If you prefer to think in class struggle terms, a $5 congestion tax will mostly be paid by fatcats commuting by car from Weston to their tall building office, and will fund the bus and rail that actual poor and moderate income people use.
We will tax those blood suckers in their Teslas and underground garages, and return the money to the masses on the bus.
How's that, comrade?
If you prefer to think in class struggle terms, a $5 congestion tax will mostly be paid by fatcats commuting by car from Weston to their tall building office, and will fund the bus and rail that actual poor and moderate income people use.
We will tax those blood suckers in their Teslas and underground garages, and return the money to the masses on the bus.
How's that, comrade?
Equilibria
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2007
- Messages
- 7,004
- Reaction score
- 8,129
Re: General MBTA Discussion Thread
Not to engage in this silliness, but actually, you'd mostly be taxing working class people forced out of inner-city, transit-accessible neighborhoods to the 495 belt by those same Tesla-driving fatcats, while giving the money to the transit those fatcats use to get to the bar.
Tax the fatcats wherever they are, and however they choose to commute, and use that money to fund transit among many other public improvements.
Not to engage in this silliness, but actually, you'd mostly be taxing working class people forced out of inner-city, transit-accessible neighborhoods to the 495 belt by those same Tesla-driving fatcats, while giving the money to the transit those fatcats use to get to the bar.
Tax the fatcats wherever they are, and however they choose to commute, and use that money to fund transit among many other public improvements.
Equilibria
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2007
- Messages
- 7,004
- Reaction score
- 8,129
Re: General MBTA Discussion Thread
The advent of anonymized point-to-point data means we're finally at a stage where there can be. I'm not sure that anyone's done that work yet.
The advent of anonymized point-to-point data means we're finally at a stage where there can be. I'm not sure that anyone's done that work yet.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 5,599
- Reaction score
- 2,710
Re: General MBTA Discussion Thread
What "working class" people drive to jobs in Back Bay, Seaport, Longwood, and Downtown?
Parking is $20 ~ $30 /day in these places.
Workers in the 495 burbs definitely do drive to jobs within 128, but not to the pricey white collar hubs in the central core.
Service workers and sub-$100k workers in the core get there by transit.
(Talked to my peeps at BIDMC: only doctors and top nurses drive alone. For others it is carpool, bike, or transit to Longwood)
(Talked to my PWC peeps in Seaport: only partners and Sr Mgrs drive.)
What "working class" people drive to jobs in Back Bay, Seaport, Longwood, and Downtown?
Parking is $20 ~ $30 /day in these places.
Workers in the 495 burbs definitely do drive to jobs within 128, but not to the pricey white collar hubs in the central core.
Service workers and sub-$100k workers in the core get there by transit.
(Talked to my peeps at BIDMC: only doctors and top nurses drive alone. For others it is carpool, bike, or transit to Longwood)
(Talked to my PWC peeps in Seaport: only partners and Sr Mgrs drive.)
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 5,599
- Reaction score
- 2,710
Re: General MBTA Discussion Thread
London data shows (1) everyone is better off and (2) high income people mostly pay it (3) moderate income people benefit from improved bus & train on most days and are glad to pay the fee to solve the occasional crisis.
London data shows (1) everyone is better off and (2) high income people mostly pay it (3) moderate income people benefit from improved bus & train on most days and are glad to pay the fee to solve the occasional crisis.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 5,599
- Reaction score
- 2,710
Re: General MBTA Discussion Thread
(I am assuming that all the pickup trucks with NH plates on 93 are heading for construction sites, where parking is being provided. These will pay more when on a job in the core )
(I am assuming that all the pickup trucks with NH plates on 93 are heading for construction sites, where parking is being provided. These will pay more when on a job in the core )
Re: General MBTA Discussion Thread
I used to work at BIDMC and almost all the nurses drove to work, and they drove alone, in my department. I doubt that’s changed much, especially since a lot of them lived quite far away... but Beth Israel has increased their parking rates, I do know that. I wouldn’t be so quick to assume people aren’t paying more than they can afford to drive alone.
I used to work at BIDMC and almost all the nurses drove to work, and they drove alone, in my department. I doubt that’s changed much, especially since a lot of them lived quite far away... but Beth Israel has increased their parking rates, I do know that. I wouldn’t be so quick to assume people aren’t paying more than they can afford to drive alone.