Copley Place Expansion and Tower | Back Bay

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Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Usually when affordable units are included in such a development, there is no difference between the amenities available to the 'affordable' units and everyone else's. If the 'affordable' residents want to tell the neighbors what their income level is, that's the only way anyone would find out who they are.

I don't think it would be too hard to learn who the affordable tenants are in a luxury high-rise. Just ask the condo association as to who can't pay the condo fees. For a place like this, the condo fees might easily be $20,000 a year. Or are you proposing that the affordable tenants be exempt from the condo fee?

I wonder how many apartment owners moved out of Harbor Towers when they got their assessment for the HVAC repairs?
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

But aren't condo fees proportional to assessed value? Affordable units usually have limited-equity restrictions, so they stay affordable when the current residents move out.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Aren't affordable units in luxury buildings usually of a lesser grade then the other units? I assume that the fit outs would be a lot cheaper and the square footage a lot smaller. The affordable units would most likely be located on the lower floors, which I?m assuming are harder to sell the multi-million dollar units on. Who wants to drop a ton of money on a unit on the 3rd floor that looks out onto the back ally?

In my opinion, a residential tower should be seen as equivalent to a neighborhood block. There?s usually some variation in income levels on a neighborhood block. The whole point of building with density is building vertically and not horizontally, so as to limit sprawl. Urban sprawl is what comes of making it difficult for the middle class to afford living in a city and forcing them to own cars to commute to work. Seriously, who really wants to waste money to rent a crappy city apartment that is left to fall to rubble by the landlord when you can buy your own little townhouse in a walled-in suburban desert? So I don't see what's so bad about the notion of mixed income levels sharing the same building. It's the inside of the unit where the luxury is present.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Aren't affordable units in luxury buildings usually of a lesser grade then the other units? I assume that the fit outs would be a lot cheaper and the square footage a lot smaller. The affordable units would most likely be located on the lower floors, which I?m assuming are harder to sell the multi-million dollar units on. Who wants to drop a ton of money on a unit on the 3rd floor that looks out onto the back ally?

We live in a new high rise and it's "yes" to all of the above though there are no "affordable units" set aside in the building. The condo's are priced according to the floor it's on and the square footage of the unit. Views matter! The higher up you go, the higher the price tag. So, if a young kid right out of university get's a job in middle management, maybe he/she can afford to buy a small studio on a lower floor while someone or a couple who have higher incomes can afford a larger unit on one of the upper floors. That's usually how "affordable" works. Same with subdivisions though instead of upper floors, it's usually "location, location, location!" and the square footage of the home that matters which is why there arn't many "affordable" homes in Weston, Lincoln, or Sudbury and scores of other towns in the Boston area.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

There is nothing "wrong" with Tent City - I just said that it's an exercise in communism - something that I'm against. That parcel is located in an area that should be generating tax revenue for the city. It's no place for a housing project, and yes, I do know all about the rich history of the Tent City people. If I had been mayor back then, they would have been fire-hosed out and a luxury tower built on site, as planned.

(just stirring up trouble on a boring afternoon)
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

But aren't condo fees proportional to assessed value?

Most condo fees are proportional to square footage, not market value or assessed value. Although, I am most familiar with condos in small multifamily buildings, not highrise condo buildings.

Atlantaden - are condo fees set only by square footage in your condo tower?
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

To my knowledge, Tent City pays property taxes. Am I wrong?

I have no problem with 'communism' when it actually works, which is rare. This property seems to be an example of it working.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

If the rents are capped, then the capitalized income stream net of expenses will yield an artificially low taxable value. Hence artificially low taxes.

That being said, I have no idea how the rent there is structured.
 
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Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

First off- thank goodness, this city's skyline seems to me- to be on life support. We need new towers for every reason you can think of.

As for affordable units- first let me say that it discomforts me that nearly ALL new development in this city is luxury. In theory- should this depress prices of condos and homes in South Boston, JP, Somerville, South, etc? The wealthy leave their rehabbed homes for the towers? Well to me, the biggest issue this city faces is PRICING OUT nearly all of its viable and middle class population.

I forsee Boston as a city of Eloi and Morlocks in the future- with the entire middle class no where to be seen. It's a shame really.

To that point- for this development- use the buyout funds and build moderately prices units elsewhere.

I fully support the tower and I fully support funds to go somewhere for affordable housing. I truly believe in a free market- but just like "trust-busting", Boston can't all just be luxe housing and projects- which I find a troubling trend. Does anyone else think half almost half a mill for an undersized condo "up and coming"- ie not currently trendy neighborhoods is a problem?

We need more growth to depress prices.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Most condo fees are proportional to square footage, not market value or assessed value. Although, I am most familiar with condos in small multifamily buildings, not highrise condo buildings.

The condo law in Massachusetts specifies that condo fees (well, percentage interests, which are what the fees are based on) should be based on market value at the time the first unit is sold, I believe. That said, a lot of condos, particularly in small multi-family buildings, have the percentage interests apportioned based on square footage because, I suspect, the math is easier.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Regarding condo fees: I've lived in hi-rises before.

One building was 100% market rate. Units on the higher floors did pay more for condo fees per square foot for an identical unit (since most hi-rises have identical floor plates on almost every floor). Their reasoning, I was told, was that upper floors require more use of the electricity. For example, a tenant on floor 29 uses the elevator a helluva lot more than the tenant on floor 3 (I could see the fees of identical units below me in our annual reports...they increased $5-10/month gradually as you go up). I cant' help but think property value of upper floor units (because of views) play a factor.

I've also lived in a building that had an affordable housing component (Strada234). The affordable units in this building were randomly placed throughout. Some were on the 7th floor, but others were on the top (12th) floor with views of the city and/or Zakim Bridge. Some even had balconies (on the 7th and 10th floors). My market rate unit had a worse view than the afforable unit next to mine (which was also larger). The sizes of the affordable units were all varied, too (some studios, some one-bedrooms, some two-bedrooms).

All tenants in the building (affordable or market rate) had access to the concierge and gym. I'm not sure all properties work this way, but this one did. The condo fees for the affordable units were much lower (I'm not sure how they were calculated).

It's also worth noting that a quick look at the Boston Housing Authority's affordable housing page shows that minimum income requirements for a downtown Boston "affordable" condo start at $46,000/year for a single person (which in other parts of the country is a comfortable income for an entire family). Other affordable units are available for a single person earning $70,000/year. The applicants for these units also have to prove they have enough cash for a reasonable down payment (and they require good credit, etc...). It's not like these luxury buildings are housing Section 8 tenants.

That said, I do think the Copley Tower is one example of a luxury hi-rise that should NOT incorporate affordable housing on site. It's connected to Boston's most high-end shopping mall...and is on top of Needless Markup, of all places.

Maybe if it was above the Marshall's, TJ Maxx, and H&M building....
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Agreed- but what is the best way to ensure that the developer's feet are held to the fire that a affordable complex somewhere else in the city goes online at the same time or near it as the tower?

Young professionals don't want to rent forever and unlike San Fran or NYC- many in Boston eventually just bail for the burbs or another city instead of renting in town. I wish I could find a great RE report that came out a few months ago, it outlined how young professionals in NYC, San Fran and LA don't care if they can't own a condo and will continue to pay rent just to be there. On the flip side- Boston, Chicago and Miami were used as prime markets where young professional expect to be able to buy something.

I don't know if it is a cultural thing or what- but I see it practiced in Boston Metro when so many people skip town for Raleigh/Durham, Philly or NYC or just move out by 495 somewhere. And I am talking about hardcore city loving individuals as well...

I apologize for digressing....

As for "affordable" units in this proposed tower- would it be better to produce more affordable units in say JP or South Boston or Brighton etc. As opposed to just a few in the tower- because isn't that how it tends to occur because of buyouts, sq. footage, etc???
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

I don't understand your question.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Just teasing. Our new member is making himself/herself known.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Agreed- but what is the best way to ensure that the developer's feet are held to the fire that a affordable complex somewhere else in the city goes online at the same time or near it as the tower?

What is the law in Boston? Are all developers forced to include affordable housing in their mix? And should they be? What about commercial highrises or a mixed-use building such as the Intercontinental Hotel, the Mandarin, or the W where it's a mix of hotel and condo units? How about rental buildings such as the Archstone developments, Trilogy, or Fallon's Park Lane or Fan Pier? Do they have to provide a certain number of affordable units? I only hear it mentioned with certain buildings but not others.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

What is the law in Boston? Are all developers forced to include affordable housing in their mix?

BRA legal recipe:

1) Create a zoning overlay with unreasonably low building height restrictions in areas that are commercially viable for much greater height. (You do so in the knowledge that this is a "legislative " action that is virtually unreviewable by any court under the seperation of powers doctrine.)

2) Create regulatory scheme with vague approval standards for special permit and/or variance exceptions to height regulations. This vagueness increases your freedom of action.

3) Exact "concessions" for wholly discretionary (and therefore not easily susceptible to judicial review) approval of "extra" height.

No one will make you include "affordable" housing if you want to build, for example, a 120 foot high "skyscraper" in much of the central city. You can build it as of right, and all the rich folk occupants can feel safe.
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Strap yourself firmly in place before reading this...

Why BRA Should Not Approve Simon's Proposed Copley Place Skyscraper Project

Letter to the Editor - by Bob Feldman
The Boston Courant
August 16, 2008

In its recently-filed "Project Notification Form," the debt-ridden, Indianapolis-based Simon Property owner of shopping malls claims its Stuart Street and Dartmouth Street skyscraper construction project "promotes Boston's affordable housing objectives." Yet Simon Property provides no evidence in its PNF that any of its proposed new 280 residential condominium units will be affordable to low-income and moderate-income residents of Boston or that the residential population of its proposed 47-story skyscraper will reflect the current racial diversity of the City of Boston.

But in its PNF, Simon Property does admit that if its skyscraper is built, during the lunch period of the workweek when Copley Square is most frequently used by local office workers in the autumn, 20 percent of Copley Square will then be under a shadow. As page 3-2 of the PNF notes:

"From October to February, additional shadow resulting from the Project will reach Copley Square ... around 12:00 noon ... affecting... 20% of the area of Copley Square at any one time. From November to February 23, new shadow from the Project will sweep across Copley Square starting around 11:00 a.m., again affecting ... 20% of the area of Copley Square at any one time."

Simon Property also indicates that an uncomfortable new wind tunnel along Stuart Street will be created if its skyscraper is built. As page page 3-2 of its PNF observes: "Wind conditions along Stuart Street may ... require ... mitigation due to the ... channeling effect between the Project and surrounding existing buildings, which could increase pedestrian level horizontal wind..."

If Simon Property is allowed to start building its luxury condominium skyscraper on Stuart Street and Dartmouth Street, for at least 3 years (between Fall 2009 and Fall 2012) around 1,700 construction workers will be disturbing the quality of life between 7 a.m. and 6 p.m. each weekday for commuters, local residents, local office workers and local hotel guests and shoppers. And, as the PNF also notes, to construct Simon Property's skyscraper "night hours will be required as determined by the Mass Turnpike Authority for work on the Mass Pike," which will disturb the quality of life for local residents and local hotel quests during the night.

Since the new residents of the 280 luxury condominium units in Simon Propoerty's planned skyscraper are each expected to own at least one automobile, over 15 percent of the 1,558 parking spaces now controlled by Simon Property in the Copley Place Center and Tent City (Dartmouth) garages will then be just reserved for the new residents of the Stuart and Dartmouth Street skyscraper, if the project is built. The number of available parking spaces for use by local workers, local shoppers and local residents will thus be decreased by 297, since "297 parking spaces will be reassigned to provide parking for the residential units," according to page C-1 of the PNF.

IF Simon Property is allowed to begin its three-year construction project, negative "air-quality impacts from fugitive dust may be expected during the early phase of construction and during demolition," according to page 3-6 of Simon's PNF. In addition, "The Project will generate solid waste;" and "solid waste generated" by the project "will be approximately 1,010 tons per year," according to Simon's PNF.

In addition to possibly creating nighttime traffic problems on the Mass Pike when Simon's construction workers are authorized to make noise during night hours, additional daytime traffic jams on Stuart Street and Dartmouth Street may also be created by Simon's project because it will produce decreased automobilelane width at the Stuart and Dartmouth Street intersection.

Although Simon Property's skyscraper will be located very near to a skyscraper which was plagued by unpredictable post-construction problems, the John Hancock Building, the PNF doesn't seem to indicate why its skyscraper WON'T be plagued by similar unpredictable post-construction problems as was the John Hancock Building. As the book Skyscraper by KArl Sabbagh observed:

(pardon the interruption, but this ass clown just used physical proximity to blatantly instill fear in the readers!)

"The windows of the John Hancock Building in Boston provide one example of the unpleasant surprised lying in the wait for the best of architects and construction managers. One November day in 1972 a pane of glass fell out of the newly-completed sixty-story building. IT was the first of hundreds of panes that were shower down on the Boston passers-by ... It took four years of falling glass for the architects and construction company to decide what to do ... The true cause of the failure was never made public ... It has been estimated that the total cost of the John Hancock problem, including replacing all 10,344 panes of glass, was more than the original cost of the building, $95 million..."

The same book also recalled that when a skyscraper is constructed:

"The effects of the project will inevitably spread far beyond the boundaries of the site. The constant stream of trucks to and from the site, some bringing concrete, others carring away rubble to dumps ... disrupts ... the already busy traffic ... Buses sometimes have to mount the pavement to skirt around the trucks...

"The history of construction is littered with disasters caused by a failure to appreciate the impact of loads and forces on steel connectors and supports. In July 1981 two walkways in thr lobby of the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Kansas City collapsed, killing 113 people and injuring more than 180..."

Simon Proerty's PNF also doesn't seem to fully disclose how tall its 57-story skyscraper will actually be, since its height estimate of 569 feet apparently doesn't include the additional feet added to the proposed skyscraper's height by its "mechanical penthouse."

The City of Boston, under the October 4, 1979 U.S. Court of Appeals Ninth Circuit decision in the Hass vs. City and County of San Francisco and California, has the right to stop high-rise buildings for "quality of life reasons." So the BRA should not authorize Simon Property to substitute a larger, high-rise residential building of luxury condominiums for the current building it owns at the Nieman-Marcus site, just because the construction project may be financially advantageous to the Simon Property Group and to Nieman-Marcus. As a New England court ruled in the 1931 Thayer vs. Hartford decision:

"The substitution for an old building of a new one--three times larger--with a corresponding increase in the nonconforming use ... is permissible only for circumstances more compelling than the improved physical appearance of the premises or a more advantageous financial return to the owner."

Email the Courant at: letters@bostoncourant.com
 
Re: Copley Place plan calls for condo tower

Time for a rebuttal letter?
 
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