Copper Mill Development | Elm Street and Grove Street | Davis Square

Dr. Rosen Rosen said:
Update

View attachment 29719

www.wickedlocal.com

Davis Square in Somerville is about to look different, but not everything is changing

UK dorm developer Scape Development is building a 4-story lab in Davis Square, replacing existing businesses with new commercial space.
www.wickedlocal.com
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Boooo. Not because of the project or even the loss of some neighborhood favorites. It's another lab, in a spot that should be something much more interesting. I loved the student housing. I'd be happy with suite housing. It would be an interesting spot for senior housing. If WeWork is still alive, Davis is perfect for a flexspace.

Instead we get a lab superblock with a pretty uninspired design, certainly unworthy of the neighborhood.
 
The residents in the area hyperventilated about the earlier student housing proposal, so Scape came up with this. I think it’s crap, but it’s the crap that the NIMBYs can stomach.
 
I never thought the student housing proposal made sense, since the square is about a mile from the closest campuses of any sort. On the other hand, I don't think there's a lamer use of land in the metro than for a 4 story lab, and our "dense inner city" areas are becoming rife with them. It's a real epidemic of bad architecture, overbearing yet simultaneously underwhelming proportions, and an overall uninspired cityscape. I lived in Davis Square for a few years and the last thing that belongs on this parcel is a superblock lab. Yuck.
 
The article says “the city rezoned the area to disallow residential use.” That’s why Scape went the lab direction.
 
got a bad feeling that tax greed from the city could wreck both Davis and Union.
There's a whole inner belt/McGrath/boynton yards/Assembly to fill full of lab space, why in the name of christ would you put a lab in the middle fo davis. Just put a nice mix of residential and commercial, even a hotel, make it fit in.
It's not rocket science, or maybe it is, I dunno.
 
Ruairi said:
got a bad feeling that tax greed from the city could wreck both Davis and Union.
There's a whole inner belt/McGrath/boynton yards/Assembly to fill full of lab space, why in the name of christ would you put a lab in the middle fo davis. Just put a nice mix of residential and commercial, even a hotel, make it fit in.
It's not rocket science, or maybe it is, I dunno.
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I've never quite understood the difference between lab space and office space for these "neighborhood character" arguments. Davis Sq retail has been asking for my day time traffic for years. Lab space will bring in workers during the day. Who cares if it is from office or lab space? Personally I would have loved to see a 6+ story residential building in this space, but a nice multistory lab space is still great land use compared to most commercial lots in the area.
 
Labs are built differently - less dense, more energy intensive, and less street interaction. Also have very large and loud 24 hour exhausts, and more controlled loading docks. Anecdotally, occupants typically come in and stay for the duration of work hours, and have fewer visitors than an office building.

From my world...
Less people per SF than you'd think:
Office space - 250SF per person
Labs - 550SF per person (bench+desk)

Structural - Clear height - labs use higher floor to ceiling height - 15+ feet typically. A lab floor also needs to be oversized due to equipment weights - for the energy space I'm looking at 125+ lbs/SF.

Energy use - expect at least double - mine is triple. Energy Star averages for reference:
Lab EUI - 115
Office EUI- 52
 
obvious_bicycle said:
I've never quite understood the difference between lab space and office space for these "neighborhood character" arguments. Davis Sq retail has been asking for my day time traffic for years. Lab space will bring in workers during the day. Who cares if it is from office or lab space? Personally I would have loved to see a 6+ story residential building in this space, but a nice multistory lab space is still great land use compared to most commercial lots in the area.
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I'm not really arguing the toss between lab and office. I just think there's an opportunity here to build some nice town houses, some with store fronts on the ground floor and use them to hide some commercial interest in the space behind.
It's not that difficult to create a nice street with lots of life but it does take a bit more effort than bulldozing the lot and building a four story land yacht lab.
I could be wrong, maybe it'll look great, breath more life in to Davis and maximize the T and community path but I doubt it.
 
Vagabond said:
Labs are built differently - less dense, more energy intensive, and less street interaction. Also have very large and loud 24 hour exhausts, and more controlled loading docks. Anecdotally, occupants typically come in and stay for the duration of work hours, and have fewer visitors than an office building.

From my world...
Less people per SF than you'd think:
Office space - 250SF per person
Labs - 550SF per person (bench+desk)

Structural - Clear height - labs use higher floor to ceiling height - 15+ feet typically. A lab floor also needs to be oversized due to equipment weights - for the energy space I'm looking at 125+ lbs/SF.

Energy use - expect at least double - mine is triple. Energy Star averages for reference:
Lab EUI - 115
Office EUI- 52
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I agree with this, but feel you're missing one key element of difference (which might admittedly be relatively minor) that works in the opposite direction:
Comparatively fewer in-office amenities in labs, such as high-quality on-site coffee lounge w/ barista, quality on-site cafeteria with star chef, etc. A glitzy tech office can entrap a worker for a whole day without them feeling compelled to step out to get better things to eat/drink than are available within. Whereas, I have been surprised (onstensibly/anecdotally) by some of the foot traffic in/out of labs during the day (though this abruptly cuts off at the end of the work day) with people carrying in coffee or lunch bought outside. This relates to nearby businesses being supported.
 
Vagabond said:
Labs are built differently - less dense, more energy intensive, and less street interaction. Also have very large and loud 24 hour exhausts, and more controlled loading docks. Anecdotally, occupants typically come in and stay for the duration of work hours, and have fewer visitors than an office building.

From my world...
Less people per SF than you'd think:
Office space - 250SF per person
Labs - 550SF per person (bench+desk)

Structural - Clear height - labs use higher floor to ceiling height - 15+ feet typically. A lab floor also needs to be oversized due to equipment weights - for the energy space I'm looking at 125+ lbs/SF.

Energy use - expect at least double - mine is triple. Energy Star averages for reference:
Lab EUI - 115
Office EUI- 52
Click to expand...

I think you are sort of splitting hairs with people per square foot. My office utilization is way down, with the majority of chairs empty the majority of days. I suspect that lab utilization is not. And going forward, I don’t see people tolerating jam-packed office layouts for much longer. If companies want office workers to come in, they’ll need to offer a comfortable in-office experience.

Count me in the camp that would prefer more square footage (likely through additional floors), but I don’t see lab as inferior to office for urban vibrancy. Davis could really use some daytime foot traffic and ANY commercial use is welcome in my book.
 
Not really sure Sligo closing has anything to do with this development. A counter example is Dragon Pizza just expanded into the adjacent space so there must be some dialog with the landlord at this point that construction is not imminent.
 
393b40 said:
Not really sure Sligo closing has anything to do with this development. A counter example is Dragon Pizza just expanded into the adjacent space so there must be some dialog with the landlord at this point that construction is not imminent.
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having tossed back a few this afternoon (and grabbed a final shirt to replace my threadbare sligo tee from the '90s) and talking to the staff, this closing is 100% due to the development.
 
chrisbrat said:
having tossed back a few this afternoon (and grabbed a final shirt to replace my threadbare sligo tee from the '90s) and talking to the staff, this closing is 100% due to the development.
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Interesting... weird that Dragon just renovated and opened the space next to their pizzeria. I'm not convinced anything is imminent vs Sligo ownship got a good offer for their liquor license and decided to exit stage left knowing the clock is ticking.
 
393b40 said:
Interesting... weird that Dragon just renovated and opened the space next to their pizzeria. I'm not convinced anything is imminent vs Sligo ownship got a good offer for their liquor license and decided to exit stage left knowing the clock is ticking.
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you could well be correct. i didn't ask to see any docs or anything; just shot the shit with them and reported what i was told.
 
393b40 said:
Interesting... weird that Dragon just renovated and opened the space next to their pizzeria. I'm not convinced anything is imminent vs Sligo ownship got a good offer for their liquor license and decided to exit stage left knowing the clock is ticking.
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Is there a more egregious issue in the commonwealth than the liquor license issue? Even if someone doesnt drink its still effecting the entire restaurant industry. Its shockingly bad and there's gotta be politicians on the take. Its a system working against the little guy and the common man
 
Suffolk 83 said:
Is there a more egregious issue in the commonwealth than the liquor license issue? Even if someone doesnt drink its still effecting the entire restaurant industry. Its shockingly bad and there's gotta be politicians on the take. Its a system working against the little guy and the common man
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Politicians on the take? Lol, no. The world isn't a giant conspiracy theory.

In the case of liquor laws, it's really simple: the vast majority of people would absolutely love to see more liquor licenses. . . but it's not really an important issue to that majority. But to whom is it a very important issue? Current restaurant and bar owners, who already paid hundreds of thousands for their license, and who depend on the existing system to provide them with an incredibly valuable asset that they can unload when they need to.

So in short: the people who really care about the liquor license regime in Massachusetts don't want it to change, and lobby hard to keep things the way they are. Meanwhile, there isn't really any interested party to organize an active opposition to them. That's all there is to it.
 
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