Copper Mill Development | Elm Street and Grove Street | Davis Square

[Ruairi]

As a general point, I don't really like always pushing new developments towards former industrial land. It's definitely more politically viable, and maybe Boston is particularly drawn to brownfield development since we got the seaport without tearing down too many established communities. But I'm willing to bet that these parcels are industrial instead of residential or commercial because it was low value to begin with, and many of the reasons why it was low value then (e.g. geography) continue to impact values and desirability today. Economically, the most viable/efficient developments are probably in spaces that are already the nucleus of urban activity and are an easier pitch to new residents than some tower in the middle of an industrial waste. I think while some people went overboard with market efficiency-first thinking in the past, we need to bring back a lot of those considerations in public policy today.

The innerbelt and brickbottom are not the same industrial waste areas of say 10 years ago. The community path and GLX station make a huge connectivity difference.
With McGrath coming down, they'll be even more connected. I'd wager that the land value will be similar to Davis in 10 years. I get that Davis is a more profitable project but it's not like one would be viable and the other not.
Again, I'm not proposing nothing at all. I just think this project kinda seems inside out if that makes any sense. I think you could definitely meet the goals of the MBTA communities act by building a series of buildings similar to 154 Broadway along Elm and Grove st.

 

[Ruairi]

Uncomfortable questions: How close do you live to this development? Do you live closer to Davis than Inner Belt? How is your personal proximity to the project affecting your support of it?

I live in East Somerville, right next to the inner belt and Brickbottom.
I lived around Davis and Teele about 10 years ago.
I don't think my proximity really affects my view on the project.

 

[Ruairi]

Considering we use the MBTA Communities Act like a bludgeon against actual smaller towns, maybe we should focus here for a second. I don't think a low-growth "urban village" deserves a stop on the red line, the busiest of all our subway lines. I'm not calling this proposal perfect, but if we aren't building tall and dense right by red line stops then what the hell are we even doing? Maybe we should re-route the line to areas that are actually willing to help solve the overall housing problem.

This scale of tower belongs in Davis, Porter, Harvard, Central, etc. Instead we tend to under-build these places, forcing an overbuild in less desirable (and less transit-rich) areas, simultaneously making traffic worse while failing to put a dent into overall demand.

Again, the proposal isn't perfect, especially at street level. However, if your best solution is adding some 3-over-1's, then it's time to reroute the red line directly from Porter to Alewife.

I think it does belong in Central, but Davis and Central are very different.
I think there could be a good core ring of highrise residential from Central to Union to the inner belt to hood park.
The inner belt is far more connected via transit than Davis. OL, GL E and D all walkable.

Again, put a series of buildings like 154 Broadway along elm and grove and you meet the T communities act requirements.

I'm not on some crusade to see this doesnt happen, I just think dollar signs might be getting in the way of good community based design.

 

[DZH22]

Again, put a series of buildings like 154 Broadway along elm and grove and you meet the T communities act requirements.

154 Broadway is an ugly piece of crap that looks like a preschooler built it out of Duplos. It's also the scale that belongs more in towns like Waltham, not the inner urban suburbs of a major global city. We have a housing crisis precisely because parcels that should be 25+ story towers are instead built as 4-5 story cardboard box landscrapers.

I lived in Davis Square for just over 5 years, spanning 2006-2011. There's a new reality in 2025. Yes this one tower will initially stick out like a sore thumb, but if each red line stop built taller it will visually make more sense. If they don't want to do their part then they shouldn't have a stop on the busiest subway line in the metro.

 

[sean99090900]

The innerbelt and brickbottom are not the same industrial waste areas of say 10 years ago. The community path and GLX station make a huge connectivity difference.
With McGrath coming down, they'll be even more connected. I'd wager that the land value will be similar to Davis in 10 years. I get that Davis is a more profitable project but it's not like one would be viable and the other not.
Again, I'm not proposing nothing at all. I just think this project kinda seems inside out if that makes any sense. I think you could definitely meet the goals of the MBTA communities act by building a series of buildings similar to 154 Broadway along Elm and Grove st.

Either way, this location should take priority because its better situated, following the dollar signs is probably a pretty good approximation of what will get the most units built by directing them towards the best locations first.

 

[as02143]

Interesting to see this would've loved them to render this with the max allowed massing on other nearby properties

 

[Ruairi]

154 Broadway is an ugly piece of crap that looks like a preschooler built it out of Duplos. It's also the scale that belongs more in towns like Waltham, not the inner urban suburbs of a major global city. We have a housing crisis precisely because parcels that should be 25+ story towers are instead built as 4-5 story cardboard box landscrapers.

I lived in Davis Square for just over 5 years, spanning 2006-2011. There's a new reality in 2025. Yes this one tower will initially stick out like a sore thumb, but if each red line stop built taller it will visually make more sense. If they don't want to do their part then they shouldn't have a stop on the busiest subway line in the metro.

if that broadway building was 40 stories high, you'd absolutely love it
Also, not talking about the aesthetics or finish of the building, more the massing.

 

[DZH22]

if that broadway building was 40 stories high, you'd absolutely love it
Also, not talking about the aesthetics or finish of the building, more the massing.

It's in a weird transit area and just kind of a weird enclave in general. The 40 story buildings should have all been at Cambridge Crossing, as opposed to the ~6-25 story range we ended up with. Talk about the lamest possible massing. Frankly, anything across Boston/Cambridge/Somerville that's built wider than it is tall is poor massing in my book.

Back to here, if we built 4 stories of residential instead then we'd be leaving about 20 stories worth of units on the table. That doesn't sound like smart "TOD" growth to me. If red line stops should be exempt from height then every single town should sue over the MBTA act.

PS this is unfathomably awful. Aesthetics matter in our historic city and this isn't the type of result we should be emulating.

 

[Ruairi]

It's in a weird transit area and just kind of a weird enclave in general. The 40 story buildings should have all been at Cambridge Crossing, as opposed to the ~6-25 story range we ended up with. Talk about the lamest possible massing. Frankly, anything across Boston/Cambridge/Somerville that's built wider than it is tall is poor massing in my book.

Back to here, if we built 4 stories of residential instead then we'd be leaving about 20 stories worth of units on the table. That doesn't sound like smart "TOD" growth to me. If red line stops should be exempt from height then every single town should sue over the MBTA act.

PS this is unfathomably awful. Aesthetics matter in our historic city and this isn't the type of result we should be emulating.

View attachment 60181

See, I dont mind this. Obviously the side is unpleasant but hopefully that's due to the possibility of an additional building at some point.
This seems like the right size for a residential/commercial area about a 10 min walk from the T.

Like I say, I dont mind height. You're right about CX. but why not build high in an under utilized industrial area on the T rather than building high in a low rise residential neighborhood way further out from the urban core.

I also think it looks funny plonking 30 stories in the middle of one and two story buildings with no gradual step up.
It'll look way more daft than this building on broadway.

 

[Smuttynose]

There’s got to be some kind of happy medium here. There’s a big gap between 4 stories and 20 stories. I appreciate the commitment to retain neighborhood commercial and more housing is good, especially from a location where you can throw a rock to Davis station. I agree that 4-stories here is too small.

But this rendering looks like a spaceship landed in the square. I realize Davis isn’t Nantucket, but it does have its charm. Why not a more traditional 2-3 story pedestrian-oriented facade with a stepped back 5-7 story residential tower (for a total height in the 6 to 10-ish story range)? That would really increase density without totally sacrificing the neighborhood center type vibe.

 

[393b40]

Looks amazing, build it! We need more housing and fuck the NIMBYs. They can get bent.

 

[H2Osquare]

There’s got to be some kind of happy medium here. There’s a big gap between 4 stories and 20 stories. I appreciate the commitment to retain neighborhood commercial and more housing is good, especially from a location where you can throw a rock to Davis station. I agree that 4-stories here is too small.

But this rendering looks like a spaceship landed in the square. I realize Davis isn’t Nantucket, but it does have its charm. Why not a more traditional 2-3 story pedestrian-oriented facade with a stepped back 5-7 story residential tower (for a total height in the 6 to 10-ish story range)? That would really increase density without totally sacrificing the neighborhood center type vibe.

From speaking with a couple of developer and architect friends, because of the switch to the high rise building code they either do 6 stories or start looking at 12+ stories, which makes it difficult to make that 6-10 story range work.

Personally, if bus-only communities like Watertown and Everett can build 6 story buildings on a single bus line, Somerville has a responsibility to do more than 6 stories adjacent to a subway station. I’m sympathetic to the neighborhood center vibes, but those vibes were altered back in 1984 when they opened the red line station, the same way the vibes of Watertown Square and Centre Street were altered when the T killed the A line and truncated the E line.

 

[stick n move]

From speaking with a couple of developer and architect friends, because of the switch to the high rise building code they either do 6 stories or start looking at 12+ stories, which makes it difficult to make that 6-10 story range work.

Personally, if bus-only communities like Watertown and Everett can build 6 story buildings on a single bus line, Somerville has a responsibility to do more than 6 stories adjacent to a subway station. I’m sympathetic to the neighborhood center vibes, but those vibes were altered back in 1984 when they opened the red line station, the same way the vibes of Watertown Square and Centre Street were altered when the T killed the A line and truncated the E line.

Luckily modular construction is opening up that middle ground of 6-10+ stories which used to not pencil out. It used to be that if you were going to build an 8 story building you would need to go full steel frame construction and at that point its so expensive you might as well go 15 stories. These days were just at the beginning (again) of where you can now get load bearing stackable modules which can be stacked up to 10 or more stories. So now after wood frame over steel construction theres modular construction in that middle ground before you get to the next step at reinforced concrete or steel frame construction which is where the costs really balloon.

Heres the clarendon hill development in somerville where theyre building new 7 and 10 story towers.

https://www.dellbrookjks.com/project/clarendon-hill/