Copper Mill Development | Elm Street and Grove Street | Davis Square

DZH22 said:
I tried a couple things from there, and thought the food (particularly pizza) was better back when it was known as Christo's. My favorite of the semi-local slices to there is Harvard House of Pizza, on Mass Ave between Porter and Harvard Squares. The square slices at Leone's and Pinocchio's are also really good but I think of square pizza as more of a novelty.

The slices at Mortadella Head are supposed to be good but when I tried them they were reheated poorly. From what I remember the dough was hot but the cheese was still cold, one of the worst slices I have ever had.

Mike's is obviously terrible and Domino's is Domino's.

EDIT: Angelina's in Teele is pretty decent, like a poor-man's Regina's. Armando's in Cambridge has solid/huge slices but isn't super convenient.
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Mortadella Head pizza is.. ehh.. I like The Shredder from there but I find the rest of them to be lackluster at best and sometimes just awful.

Dragon Pizza I have a love-hate relationship with. I like the space more than I like the pizza even tho the pizza isn't bad by any stretch - in the words of Dave Portnoy who nailed it, it's very Parmesan Forward / Heavy. Also they are soooo sloppy when serving multiple slices to go. They just throw them in the bag and you get a pile of gooey slop.

My goto these days for "I need pizza now" is just ordering from Joe's in Harvard.

I dont mind Mike's calzones but they're a rarity for me unless I'm forced to go there by friends.

The area could really use a new pizza place or two.
 
Rosarino said:
I appreciate the acknowledgement of the effort although I admit it falls short of the condescension of your google earth tutorial.
Not so much on EIS, shadow study...sure - massing views that satisfy the desires of your heart, negative.
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Glad you appreciated the effort, Andrew!
 
393b40 said:
Mortadella Head pizza is.. ehh.. I like The Shredder from there but I find the rest of them to be lackluster at best and sometimes just awful.

Dragon Pizza I have a love-hate relationship with. I like the space more than I like the pizza even tho the pizza isn't bad by any stretch - in the words of Dave Portnoy who nailed it, it's very Parmesan Forward / Heavy. Also they are soooo sloppy when serving multiple slices to go. They just throw them in the bag and you get a pile of gooey slop.

My goto these days for "I need pizza now" is just ordering from Joe's in Harvard.

I dont mind Mike's calzones but they're a rarity for me unless I'm forced to go there by friends.

The area could really use a new pizza place or two.
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Has Dragon at least become more consistent? When I live in the area, they were my favorite stop for a slice (or, occasionally, a whole pie). But sometimes it would be perfect, and other times it would either be undercooked slop. I like the parm-forward (and agree with the assessment) pizza, but it did push the saltiness toward the brink of being over the top when toppings like pepperoni were added. The area really could use a place that just does a solid NY style slice. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

I wanted to like Mortadella Head, but I just couldn't. Mike's really wasn't a consideration (I don't really do calzones). So when we did pizza, we usually went for Leone's. Growing up not far from PVD, I've always had an affection for the Sicilian style anyway.

For takout, I miss Dakzen the most. The Ba-Mee-Moo-Deng was a longtime favorite.
 
DZH22 said:
I tried a couple things from there, and thought the food (particularly pizza) was better back when it was known as Christo's. My favorite of the semi-local slices to there is Harvard House of Pizza, on Mass Ave between Porter and Harvard Squares. The square slices at Leone's and Pinocchio's are also really good but I think of square pizza as more of a novelty.

The slices at Mortadella Head are supposed to be good but when I tried them they were reheated poorly. From what I remember the dough was hot but the cheese was still cold, one of the worst slices I have ever had.

Mike's is obviously terrible and Domino's is Domino's.

EDIT: Angelina's in Teele is pretty decent, like a poor-man's Regina's. Armando's in Cambridge has solid/huge slices but isn't super convenient.
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Ah, but see it’s primarily the ambiance that I’ll miss. The pizza is fine, but sitting out in that back parking lot on a warm summer night was really great. Looks like this building will fill that whole space.
 
Blackbird said:
Ah, but see it’s primarily the ambiance that I’ll miss. The pizza is fine, but sitting out in that back parking lot on a warm summer night was really great. Looks like this building will fill that whole space.
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For me it's that stupid tight little indoor corner seat and street watching with a beer and a slice or two of pizza. I can't think of any other pizzeria's in the area that have that kind of right on top of the street seating and sell beer.
 
393b40 said:
For me it's that stupid tight little indoor corner seat and street watching with a beer and a slice or two of pizza. I can't think of any other pizzeria's in the area that have that kind of right on top of the street seating and sell beer.
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While we already determined it isn't particularly good, you could pretty much somersault from Dragon Pizza to Mike's in one minute flat. It seems that covers all four of your criteria. (in the area, window seats for street watching, pizza, beer)
 
DZH22 said:
While we already determined it isn't particularly good, you could pretty much somersault from Dragon Pizza to Mike's in one minute flat. It seems that covers all four of your criteria. (in the area, window seats for street watching, pizza, beer)
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I could... but I'd prefer not to 🤣

Unrelated, I just got pizza from Avenue Kitchen and Bar last night. It's Detroit Style so you gotta be into that and not in Davis, but damn it's good. I think my new go to.

General wish is there were more small bars with cozy window seating. I used to adore the little alcove in Hub Pub for similar reasons.
 
I've been living in Davis proximate neighborhoods for like 8 years, and there's never really been that many great pizza options. For pizza in Davis, its currently hard to beat American Flatbread, or just going to teele for Angelinas. Posto was better, but it moved to Assembly, but Ciao in Ball is newer and excellent - its a Neapolitan style place. I don't recall if they have a liquor license, but they have window tables.

That said, Davis Sq retail generally is weaker than folks like to admit. It seems to be loosing the energy it used to have - walking around now compared to a decade ago feels very different, especially in the later evening. A good chunk of energy used to be brought by Tufts students, but since GLX? It feels like it's gone way down, or I'm just getting older. Part of that is the entire Highland side of Davis has always skewed underused, for which the proof is that BOA put a ATM lobby on Elm when they have a full branch on Highland, but the other part is the pending redevelopments which haven't been signing new leases - the old Sligo, Caramel and Oath spaces, or the entirety of Davis Plaza.

It's one of the reasons I'm fully in favor of this - no matter what, once construction is finished the rationale for this segment's redevelopment induced vacancy goes away.
 
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If you won't build this housing, you won't build any housing.
That said...presented commitments around 100% Union labor, 20% inclusionary, the current spread on independent retailers (read: heavy TIAs) free retail spaces to the City...ETC also say this won't ACTUALLY be built any time soon.

In summary, its a nimby/yimby tie, that leans nimby victory; housing supply be damned.
 
maybe I'm getting old but WTF is this? it's nuts.
Just build a street face that looks like it's always been there.
Put three/four levels of apartments above it. Bit of green space in the middle of the block behind the street, Jobs a good one.
Plenty of new housing, urban feel for elm st. No huge tower making everything else look daft.
 
Ruairi said:
maybe I'm getting old but WTF is this? it's nuts.
Just build a street face that looks like it's always been there.
Put three/four levels of apartments above it. Bit of green space in the middle of the block behind the street, Jobs a good one.
Plenty of new housing, urban feel for elm st. No huge tower making everything else look daft.
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Care to expand on 'nuts'? Is it fair to say that if 3-4 levels of housing here carries the day for you that it is the proposed height that is 'nuts'?
 
Rosarino said:
Care to expand on 'nuts'? Is it fair to say that if 3-4 levels of housing here carries the day for you that it is the proposed height that is 'nuts'?
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Yeah, I think so.
You could develop a nice street wall all along Elm st. and up Grove st. 3 over 1. Commercial and residential. You provide extra housing and retail without killing off the urban village feel that Davis has. Put small alleys through to a communal green space behind. Continue at that height throughout the square so that gym at the corner of Grove st. and the community path should have been 4 stories too.
This way, instead of one monolith dominating the square, you spread out the residential load and stay closer to the feel of the square.
I'm not at all opposed to highrise residential. I think the US2 tower in Union works well, but it was built on scrap yards and is at the edge of the square.
Somerville definitely needs more housing stock but it seems mad to start tearing Davis apart while the likes of the innerbelt and Brickbottom sit there hugely under utilized. Put this tower in the back of the innerbelt beside the East Somerville station.
 
Ruairi said:
I'm not at all opposed to highrise residential. I think the US2 tower in Union works well, but it was built on scrap yards and is at the edge of the square.
Somerville definitely needs more housing stock but it seems mad to start tearing Davis apart while the likes of the innerbelt and Brickbottom sit there hugely under utilized. Put this tower in the back of the innerbelt beside the East Somerville station.
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As a general point, I don't really like always pushing new developments towards former industrial land. It's definitely more politically viable, and maybe Boston is particularly drawn to brownfield development since we got the seaport without tearing down too many established communities. But I'm willing to bet that these parcels are industrial instead of residential or commercial because it was low value to begin with, and many of the reasons why it was low value then (e.g. geography) continue to impact values and desirability today. Economically, the most viable/efficient developments are probably in spaces that are already the nucleus of urban activity and are an easier pitch to new residents than some tower in the middle of an industrial waste. I think while some people went overboard with market efficiency-first thinking in the past, we need to bring back a lot of those considerations in public policy today.
 
Ruairi said:
Yeah, I think so.
You could develop a nice street wall all along Elm st. and up Grove st. 3 over 1. Commercial and residential. You provide extra housing and retail without killing off the urban village feel that Davis has. Put small alleys through to a communal green space behind. Continue at that height throughout the square so that gym at the corner of Grove st. and the community path should have been 4 stories too.
This way, instead of one monolith dominating the square, you spread out the residential load and stay closer to the feel of the square.
I'm not at all opposed to highrise residential. I think the US2 tower in Union works well, but it was built on scrap yards and is at the edge of the square.
Somerville definitely needs more housing stock but it seems mad to start tearing Davis apart while the likes of the innerbelt and Brickbottom sit there hugely under utilized. Put this tower in the back of the innerbelt beside the East Somerville station.
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Uncomfortable questions: How close do you live to this development? Do you live closer to Davis than Inner Belt? How is your personal proximity to the project affecting your support of it?
 
Ruairi said:
Yeah, I think so.
You could develop a nice street wall all along Elm st. and up Grove st. 3 over 1. Commercial and residential. You provide extra housing and retail without killing off the urban village feel that Davis has...
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Considering we use the MBTA Communities Act like a bludgeon against actual smaller towns, maybe we should focus here for a second. I don't think a low-growth "urban village" deserves a stop on the red line, the busiest of all our subway lines. I'm not calling this proposal perfect, but if we aren't building tall and dense right by red line stops then what the hell are we even doing? Maybe we should re-route the line to areas that are actually willing to help solve the overall housing problem.

This scale of tower belongs in Davis, Porter, Harvard, Central, etc. Instead we tend to under-build these places, forcing an overbuild in less desirable (and less transit-rich) areas, simultaneously making traffic worse while failing to put a dent into overall demand.

Again, the proposal isn't perfect, especially at street level. However, if your best solution is adding some 3-over-1's, then it's time to reroute the red line directly from Porter to Alewife.
 
I love the (at least perception) of intent to keep the existing businesses, it's something you dont see very often. Its big and bold sure, but its smart development close to the redline and in a commercial area. Build it
 
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