Crazy Transit Pitches

[George_Apley]

Running with the tangent (feel free to splice it van):

^ I encountered controllers fairly often in Heidelberg. Granted it's a much smaller system than Berlins (only articulated bus and S-Bahn service) but I would see Kontrol at least once a week and they didn't hesitate to dole out those fines to the Schwartzfahrern. The warnings were clearly posted throughout the vehicles in big red signs. I think some of the smaller transit systems in the US should start trying open fare, and hopefully can lead to the adoption by larger systems like Boston and San Francisco.

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Getting back on track with Crazy Transit Pitches; here's another map I cooked up:

http://g.co/maps/5emb7

• Red Line: Burlington Mall-North Stoughton/Rte24
• Green Line HRV: Anderson Woburn-Cleveland Circle, Anderson Woburn-Riverside
• Orange Line: Reading Heights/I93-Forest Hills, Medford Square-Millenium Park
• Blue Line: Salem Depot-Oak Square, Lynn Center-Boston College
• Teal Line: Watertown Square-JFK/UMass, Watertown Square-Roslindale Village
• Yellow Line: Urban Ring: Airport-Seaport-Andrew-Newmarket-Dudley-Brigham-Fenway-BU-Kendall-Lechmere-Sullivan-Chelsea⟲, Northgate-Urban Ring
• Green Line LRV: Wonderland-Forest Hills
• Silver Line: Seaport-Mattapan
• Brown Line: Urban Ring: Sullivan Square-North Station-Park St-Copley Square-Northeastern-Brigham Circle-Coolidge Corner-Allston Village-Harvard Square-Union Square-Brickbottom ⟲
• Indigo Line: Riverside-South Station, Cedar Wood I95-North Station-South Station-Westwood/I95, Cedarwood/I95-Dedham

*Urban ring notations not all the stops, just a general overview of major areas along the route.

 

[Matthew]

San Francisco Muni light rail is open fare above-ground with rear-door boarding and I think they are about to extend it to buses.

Santa Clara VTA is open fare, as is Caltrain and also Seattle's SoundLink.

 

[omaja]

Which thread should this go in?

Some cities are studying whether or not "honor system" systems work for public transportation. Los Angeles estimates it has a 3-5% evasion rate on its light rail and subway system.

Below, results from Denver's light rail system:



Nothing annoys me as much as people sneaking on the train. Well, one thing does, and that's everyone having to board at the front of the train so that no one can sneak on the back. Dropping the fare collections obviously still allows people to cheat (I'm looking at you, college kids) but in the interest of speed and efficiency, should we do away with fare boxes (at least above ground?).

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/co...mass-transit-work-better-smaller-cities/1910/

Absolutely. Combine that with a mechanism allowing one operator to control all doors on Green Line trains and put any second- or third-car operators on patrol for fare compliance across the system. Same could be said of the worthless 'inspectors' all over the place. Or better yet, altogether cut their positions and use the freed funding towards more station, track and train maintenance.

Funny how such 'novel' ideas to make the system infinitely better are met with the utmost resistance from the establishment. If only there were a way to break free from the unending spiral of rising costs and zero increased benefit to the MBTA's network.

 

[datadyne007]

The open fare system also allows all stations to become easily accessible because there are no restrictions with "fare lobbies." Elevators, stairs, and escalators can go directly from the street to the platform.

 

[omaja]

Most places with proof-of-payment systems have some sort of 'compulsory fare zone' though, no? You'd need to have some sort of way to designate it separate from the entrances via stairs/elevators/escalators.

Rethinking this though, I don't think it would be necessary to convert the entire system to POP--fare collection only really negatively impacts the Green Line surface stops. No need to remove the fare gates at stations where they already exist, right?

 

[datadyne007]

Most places with proof-of-payment systems have some sort of 'compulsory fare zone' though, no? You'd need to have some sort of way to designate it separate from the entrances via stairs/elevators/escalators.

Absolutely none in Berlin. FVMs and validation boxes are located on each end of the platform (elevator typically favors one of the ends, but some stations have the elevator in the center). To be honest, to a tourist who hasn't done their homework (which is their own fault), it is rather confusing.

Back to Boston... the E-line has POP machines that have never worked properly since the day they were installed. They mostly just had Windows errors at first and now the screens are just black. The infrastructure is already in place. All they have to do is say we're going to use this. After it gets implemented, those that are too stupid to read signs or do research on the website before they ride the T (mostly MFA goers) deserve the raised $75 fine.

 

[George_Apley]

I think it's most appropriate at light-rail street car lines and busses. Convert the Green Line west of Kenmore and Symphony to open fare and all the bus lines. Probably could do this for Zone 1/1A Commuter Rail stops as well. Underground stations for both light and heavy rail would keep the PoP system if only for costs sake. You'd have to work out a hybrid system for controllers to check on the Open Fare lines though. Some sort of handheld Charlie Card reader to make sure all riders have, in fact, purchased a ride.

 

[datadyne007]

Some sort of handheld Charlie Card reader to make sure all riders have, in fact, purchased a ride.

They already exist. Sometimes (very rarely) they will have a person stationed at each end of Longwood Medical Area who effectively acts as fare gates during the evening rush. The station itself becomes a "paid zone." They also use these machines when they do what I like to call "T-busts" when they catch people who get on in the rear and don't pay. They ask you to tap your card and it shows if you paid or if you have a valid LinkPass.

 

[George_Apley]

^ It should be simple to implement then. Of course it won't be...

 

[JohnAKeith]

Made a friend a couple years ago, a young French man. He told us that Americans were weird, they always seemed to respect the law. In Paris, he said, people were always jumping the turnstiles and the cops would do nothing.

He spent the summer in Manhattan. He worked as a tour guide (the guys with the yellow shirts) selling tours. He made up a social security number so that he could get paid (so, he was working illegally but paying taxes & FICA - which he'd never collect!).

He jumped the turnstiles all the time (which is difficult in NYC, isn't it?) After several weeks, he got caught. The fine was $100 which turned out to be what he estimated he had saved from evading fares the prior three weeks. So he kept doing it.

 

[George_Apley]

^ Jeez what must he think of the Germans? They don't even jaywalk...

 

[whighlander]

^ Jeez what must he think of the Germans? They don't even jaywalk...

Compare Boston and LA with respect to cars and pedestrians

Here we have signs, sometimes lights and striped cross walks and even flags which you can borrow to wave when crossing (an initiative of the East Lexington Community Association) -- people are still getting hit and killed even in the suburbs where the traffic is sub 30 MPH -- including one accident in a crosswalk across Mass Ave less than 100m from the Lexington Police HQ

in LA -- they don't bother with all the paraphernalia -- yet when I jumped off the curb mid-block on Wiltshire Blvd -- 8 lanes of traffic panic braked -- and I was only trying to get a picture with a view down the street which i couldn't get from the sidewalk

Flip-side a couple of weeks later while crossing obliquely a small side street in Westwood near UCLA I was stopped and ticketed by a motorcycle cop

 

[Shepard]

Seriously? I hope you didn't pay the fine.

 

[whighlander]

Seriously? I hope you didn't pay the fine.

Shep -- actually I did -- it was $9 and it was hard to get to the courthouse on public transit -- took 3 buses

why did I pay -- well the ticket came at the beginning of a summer of living in Santa Monica and commuting to UCLA -- I was worried that I might get nailed a second time

Besides despite having been in a virtual episode of Adam 12 -- it made me feel like one of those people who were in the epilogue of a Dragnet episode --- "Trial was held in and for the County of Los Angeles in Superior Court of the State of California ..... the [miscreant] is today serving his sentence in San Quentin"

You really can't get anymore LA than that!

 

[HenryAlan]

Yeah, this. We have the same problem here in Providence; Kennedy Plaza (the central bus hub) and the train station are about 10 minutes apart by walking, and are therefore not worth building a streetcar link between. (They're also separated by some unusual geography, making it less feasible yet.) But if you try to do that 10-minute walk in the rain (which I have done), or in wind or snow, it's awful. Your pants get soaked.

That's a real problem that's faced by urban transit planners, imo. You need not only to make your system efficient but also convenient, because, otherwise, people will just keep on driving their cars.

By far, the biggest reason for the often discussed one seat ride, is reluctance by users to make transfers. The situation in Providence is an extreme example, but any system with easy, well designed transfers doesn't need the redundancy that would have to exist to eliminate them. People don't have an issue transferring at Forest Hills, for example. It's easy, straight forward, and pretty dependable.

 

[underground]

Copenhagen used an open system. I can't remember exactly what it was, but the fine was REALLY high. Seemed to work fine. You had to have a photo in your monthly pass book. Maybe the MBTA could make some money on the side operating photo booths at their stations?

 

[Matthew]

Easy transfers and general people-flow inside stations is critical, and also seems to be something neglected by modern builds.

Just follow the crowd at North Station during rush-hour sometime. The subway station itself seems rather sensibly laid out, with potential cross-platform transfers, but the route from the subway to the commuter rail platforms is a mess. Which is a shame since North Station really could use a good transfer since it is in such an sub-optimal location.

Even South Station has this problem: everyone coming from the Red Line is squeezed through a tiny set of double doors in order to get to the main station. Normally not a problem, but at rush hour, it's a bottleneck. If you're going in the reverse direction, you're probably better off going outside and around.

 

[czsz]

Compare Boston and LA with respect to cars and pedestrians
in LA -- they don't bother with all the paraphernalia -- yet when I jumped off the curb mid-block on Wiltshire Blvd -- 8 lanes of traffic panic braked -- and I was only trying to get a picture with a view down the street which i couldn't get from the sidewalk

Probably has to do with the fact that LA drivers were relatively shocked by a pedestrian crossing whereas Boston drivers are always huffily trying to get where they're going in spite of all the pedestrians in their way.

I'm always amazed how much antipathy I have toward pedestrians (given I am one, most of the time) as soon as I get behind the wheel in Boston. Someone needs to do a version of the Stanford Prison Experiment involving this phenomenon.

Copenhagen used an open system. I can't remember exactly what it was, but the fine was REALLY high. Seemed to work fine. You had to have a photo in your monthly pass book. Maybe the MBTA could make some money on the side operating photo booths at their stations?

A lot of systems in Europe have this honor system approach. They also need to keep a lot of cops employed checking passes, and have ridiculously strict laws allowing cops to drag you to an ATM to withdraw your fine on the spot (I don't think this would pass due process muster in the US).

 

[George_Apley]

Probably has to do with the fact that LA drivers were relatively shocked by a pedestrian crossing whereas Boston drivers are always huffily trying to get where they're going in spite of all the pedestrians in their way.

I'm always amazed how much antipathy I have toward pedestrians (given I am one, most of the time) as soon as I get behind the wheel in Boston. Someone needs to do a version of the Stanford Prison Experiment involving this phenomenon.

This. I notice myself doing this all the time. As soon as I turn on the car my allegiance shifts to being a road warrior and having no patience at all for pedestrians pulling jaywalk stunts that I do myself without hesitation when I'm the one walking about.

 

[omaja]

Getting back on track with Crazy Transit Pitches; here's another map I cooked up:

http://g.co/maps/5emb7

• Red Line: Burlington Mall-North Stoughton/Rte24
• Green Line HRV: Anderson Woburn-Cleveland Circle, Anderson Woburn-Riverside
• Orange Line: Reading Heights/I93-Forest Hills, Medford Square-Millenium Park
• Blue Line: Salem Depot-Oak Square, Lynn Center-Boston College
• Teal Line: Watertown Square-JFK/UMass, Watertown Square-Roslindale Village
• Yellow Line: Urban Ring: Airport-Seaport-Andrew-Newmarket-Dudley-Brigham-Fenway-BU-Kendall-Lechmere-Sullivan-Chelsea⟲, Northgate-Urban Ring
• Green Line LRV: Wonderland-Forest Hills
• Silver Line: Seaport-Mattapan
• Brown Line: Urban Ring: Sullivan Square-North Station-Park St-Copley Square-Northeastern-Brigham Circle-Coolidge Corner-Allston Village-Harvard Square-Union Square-Brickbottom ⟲
• Indigo Line: Riverside-South Station, Cedar Wood I95-North Station-South Station-Westwood/I95, Cedarwood/I95-Dedham

*Urban ring notations not all the stops, just a general overview of major areas along the route.

Very nice -- lots of similarities between your ideas and mine. I notice is there are a lot of long extensions into the burbs (Salem, Stoughton, Woburn Anderson, Reading) that might be better served by regional lines a la the RER/S-Bahn/Cercanias systems in Europe? Also, what's the thought behind two different rings?

Still working on the stylized map version, but here's the Google Maps version I have going now. I've taken a liking to how Paris has its system organized, so what you see is 13 local 'Metro' lines and 4 commuter/express 'RER' lines.

If only we had the political will, community support and budget to give us a true public transportation renaissance. Such a shame we're lacking in the political visionary department.