Crazy Transit Pitches

A New Idea , Milford to Worcester service...

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Worcester Union


Power Sources
New Inland Northeast Corridor - 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Worcester/East line - 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Pittsfield/Worcester line - 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Woonsocket/Worcester line - 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
North line - Diesel Mutiple Unit
Northwest line - Diesel Mutiple Unit
New London/Worcester line - Diesel Mutiple Unit
 
Davem said:
Who are these people? What is there that is bringing in non-originating trips other then the Esplanade or special events? What am I missing that is between Marlborough and the Charles River that people can't walk between a quarter and third of a mile that justifys THREE subway stops? I really want to know, because I don't see how the Pru, BPL, Copley Place, Back Bay Station, Hynes, and the Boylston retail strip somehow deserve a worse class of service then two blocks of three to five story townhouses and a linear park. You have also not addressed the fact that HALF THE POTENTIAL SERVICE AREA IS WATER. The only iteration of the Riverbank Subway that would be practical would be as an express bypass, because any stations there would be a complete and utter waste of money, with the possible slight exception of the Hatch Shell, where only 1/4 of the service area is water, and it also serves the commercial district on Charles St as well as the other side of the Garden, and of course the Hatch Shell itself.

Also, the Tremont Street subway is the oldest subway in the US. Hardly the world. Not even close. The Boylston Street Subway is circa 1911 I believe, and was built with similar clearances to normal subways everywhere else past the curve at Boylston.

The boylston curve doesnt have to exist, nor does the green line HAVE TO turn north onto Tremont. If we are talking a project on the scale of the Riverbank subway, I'm not sure why we arent talking about splitting the line here as was planned, running the trolleys down Washington to Dudley, and the newly heavy-rail Boylston Street subway through the provision for the Post Office Square extension and tying it into the Silver Line, or something similar. A transfer at Chinatown gets you to Gov't Center just as fine, or you could keep riding to south station for a red line transfer.

BAM, you just alleviated all the congestion from the west in the unfixable section of the Tremont subway, got an orange line transfer sooner then haymarket, cleared the transfer congestion out of Government Center and Park Street, got trolley service to Dudley, made Rifleman happy by heavy railing the bus, AND didnt have to build a redundant subway to serve ducks and two blocks worth of rich people.

You decry the Riverbank for being impractical but then advocate ripping up FiDi and Chinatown? I repeat that the Riverbank is the only feasible alternative route to Kenmore and points beyond from Downtown. I know this is CRAZY transit pitches, but since this conversation has lately been about practicality. Riverbank is the only practical route. There will not be any new tunneling in landfill or the old city except under previously cleared land or under active rights-of-way. Riverbank subway, sub NEC/CAS and extending the Huntington subway are the only underground routes through BBY that will be financially sane this century...
 
Crazy transit pitch? Get a grip on the budget before any new expansion or service increase is contemplated. And any new money from tax increases goes straight into debt service and maintenance of existing infrastructure.
 
Debt service for non-public transit activities? Hrm. That feels suspect.

I agree about maintaining existing infratstructure though.
 
I don't believe the high schools provide buses, at least the magnet schools don't, but you're missing my point in any case. I'm not saying that if the current B line is to be seen as a major commute-driven transit line BU needs 3 stops, not at all. I also don't think that many BU students take the train to avoid a 90-second walk, because it can take 90 seconds to cross Comm. Ave. to the station and wait for the train. They aren't taking the train between consecutive stops, but instead getting on on one side of the Turnpike (where many students live in StuVi and such) and getting off on the other side where classes tend to be, or vice versa. That is in no way different from someone living near Kenmore Square taking the train to work in Copley, and many of those workplaces also sponsor monthly passes, just as many frequent riders buy them for themselves.

Your argument seems to be that BU students don't have a right to a transit system which runs right in front of both ends of their commute and for which they pay as much as many other city residents.
No, no no. My argument is that BU does not have a right to muscle their way into keeping an overabundance of stops that inconveinances every rider of the line except for BU students. Its the same qualm CBS had about the Riverworks stop on the CR, except unlike that issue this does drastically slow down service, and there are adequately accessible stations within a LITERAL stones throw from the ones that should be closed. As for the school buses, I assumed the ones parked on Warren by Brighton High were for it, but I guess they could be for extra curriculars or whatever.

By way of clarification: if BU allowed a couple of stops to be removed, or if there was a subway under the street that only had stops at "BU" and "Agganis," would that resolve our issue?
YES! But considering the suspicious lack of any closures through BU during the abandonment of similarly spaced stops outside of the BU campus, as well as their heavy involvement in both the BU East/Central and the Comm Ave reconstruction projects (which pretty much cemented the station locations further in place with landscaping and infrastructure investment for at least the next 30 years) I seriously doubt they wouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep every single one. I do not think it is fair to allow one private institution to inconvenience the non-BU population of Allston and Brighton with stops that serve only their students, while a consolidation of stops from 8 to 4 would have little to no adverse effect on the commuting patterns you reference in the first paragraph above, but would have a massive positive effect on everyone else on the train that is unaffiliated with BU.

Or is the problem that you don't like sharing the train with college students?
Well, I get off at Hynes because its the location of the Boston Architectural College, which I attend...


On the routing issue, I see your point, but I don't like the idea of building the subway where there isn't development because there's a chance it could come later. That makes a lot of assumptions and it's a huge investment for very little guaranteed return. As F-Line likes to say: prime the pump.
There is more than a chance; it is already happening in Watertown along the river and in the square, as well as at Brighton Landing, Charlesview/Brighton Mills, and the undeveloped side of Union Square. Without any transit other then the 64 (which sucks). I don't think its a far stretch to believe that with a full on subway this trend would continue. This isn't the Orange Line going down the SW corridor we are talking about here, which was and still is undesirable due to perceived safety of the environment. This is already desirable-despite-bad-transit land poised for development. The pump is primed.

Note, that if this was a year and a half ago I would be agreeing with you full on. But with the developments that are coming online in the area, I think the entire focus is going to shift to these easy to develop parcels. And it isn't going to take more then a few buildings to make this area seem desirable into the timeframe that this could realistically be constructed. Remember, Comm Ave and Beacon St were built through farmland, as were many of the ELs that ran into Queens. If you build transit to places people want to go and build, they will. They are already building.


I actually don't think there's anything wrong with streetcars in Oak Square, which looks like it would be beautiful with a landscaped streetcar median and isn't so far from the CBD that HRT is a necessity. The area around New Brighton Landing will have transit service through what will hopefully be a DMU/EMU stop. Watertown lacking fixed-guideway transit is a pretty serious hole in the system, but I still feel like that might be better addressed using the ROW on the north side of the river as an extension of GLX from Union Square. That ROW is built over, but it's certainly easier than a subway tunnel through Brighton and under the river.

Streetcars absolutely, but not heavy rail. My issue with the Watertown Branch from the Arsenal to Porter is exactly that, it goes from the Arsenal to Porter. Really how many people are going that way, versus downtown? The other issue is the same one as the Riverbank subway, who is it serving? The dead people in Mt Auburn and the ducks at Fresh Pond. Even if you got some great TOD at the Shaws site and the Fresh Pond Mall it still doesn't come near to the potential of an All/Bright routing. Then when you get to the Fitchburg line you have redundancy with the Red Line. I also realistically can't see people choosing a looping diversion to get to the red line versus taking the trackless trolley down Mt Auburn Street. It might have a chance if the Red Line is extended out to Lexington for some reverse commuting or the like, but that's at least 50 years out, if ever. I think the best hope for this section of the branch is a bike path.

The new subway, if there is one, should be Huntington Ave first
Absolutely.

I just don't know where it would go once it gets to Brookline Village. It could terminate there, but that doesn't seem long enough and limits suburban access to LMA. It could turn south to JP, but that doubles the OL. My best idea is for it to take over the D Line to Cleveland Circle, then subway up to BC somehow, with the D Line from Newton making a somewhat coordinated transfer and then linking into the C the rest of the way, saving everyone's pet light rail sections. Folks from Newton and Needham would either use the DMU/EMU line along the Pike or the timed transfer at Cleveland Circle for faster Downtown access.
Out to Reservoir I agree, but again I am not going to advocate heavy rail to BC, I just don't see it as that much of a traffic generator. Extending the subway into Newton alone just seems to be a waste, as it will never be built up enough to justify the mode. The only way it might would be to go to Needham. It gets you a 128 park and ride closer than Riverside, Needham has a lot of underused land all along the route that could be built up, and Needham Center itself was supposed to get the Orange Line years ago, showing demand for heavy rail.


You decry the Riverbank for being impractical but then advocate ripping up FiDi and Chinatown?
Why did you bother quoting all of that if you only responded to one part. Answer the first question and get the answer to yours. Again,

WHO is using the three stops in the backbay whos service area is half water?
and then
WHO is using a new connecting line under Essex St?


I repeat that the Riverbank is the only feasible alternative route to Kenmore and points beyond from Downtown. I know this is CRAZY transit pitches, but since this conversation has lately been about practicality. Riverbank is the only practical route. There will not be any new tunneling in landfill or the old city except under previously cleared land or under active rights-of-way. Riverbank subway, sub NEC/CAS and extending the Huntington subway are the only underground routes through BBY that will be financially sane this century...

The Boylston Street subway is the only practical route between Kenmore and Downtown. That's why it was chosen, at the cost of money, time, and against the objections of BERY management over the Riverbank in the first place. Kenmore was designed to be a modal switch transfer station, there is no reason it can't actually be used that way by converting the Boylston Street Subway to heavy rail***. The whole one seat ride thing is absurd, what is the difference in changing between the commuter rail to subway versus a trolley to subway, except that trolley to subway is a cross platform transfer versus walking a few hundred feet and up and down stairs transfer.

***You don't have to split the line at Boylston as you reacted to, I just said you could. You could certainly convert the Tremont Street subway as well. But then you have redundancy with the Orange Line through downtown. You have to either convert both branches of the GLX, or turn the trolleys from those branches at Government Center and send the heavy rail somewhere else at the portal at North Station. You also still have crowding issues at Park Street and Government Center. Is that cost/benefit greater than or less than an Essex Street to Silver Line routing?


The real issue here is that the green line wasn't converted decades ago. The portals were built for heavy rail conversion, as was Kenmore. The non tremont tunnel was built to rapid transit clearances. The real crazy thing here is we are discussing reviving a proposal from 1907 that was shot down in 1911 due to a better routing instead of a long planned and mitigated for proposal to heavy rail the green line that was never canceled or replaced, but put on hold due to economic depression, white flight, the dissolving of two transit authority's, and over a half century of treating the city like shit.
 
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I will tackle the rest of this discussion when I have the time to give it the attention it deserves - but to the question of "is converting the GLX of better cost/benefit than Essex Street -> Silver Line?" the answer is emphatically yes.

Remember, heavy rail can't really handle street running and the argument that we're not ripping up Back Bay because it would cost billions (and no, it's not impossible, it's just a hugely megalithic undertaking and would make the Big Dig look cheap in comparison) applies to the Seaport and Southie as well, and the minute you hit World Trade Center Station, you just lost your dedicated ROW and made going any farther a multi-billion-dollar proposition. World Trade Center is a fine station, but it makes for a terrible terminus - especially considering that you're most of the way into Southie already.

Assuming that the Airport's a no-go either way, it makes more sense to at least try and swing on an LRT Silver Line out to City Point, Harborwalk @ L Street, or Pleasure Bay / Castle Island - even if it isn't doable now, keeping the option open for some point in the future when the MBTA gets over its phobia of new street-running lines is better than closing it off with HRT, because you and I both know that tunneling into Southie is just as DOA a proposition as tunneling into Back Bay would be.

The real issue here, in my opinion, is that we absolutely can't possibly touch the Park-Gov't tunnel, and eliminating it means a permanent segregation of the Gov't-north LRT services from the Park-south ones.

Come to think of it, is there any real reason why we can't just dig the HRT tunnels underneath the existing Red Line and Blue Line tunnels? We'd need to reconfigure Park Street and Government Center no matter what we did anyway, and digging underneath the current tunnels doesn't run afoul of the constraints on either side.
 
I will tackle the rest of this discussion when I have the time to give it the attention it deserves - but to the question of "is converting the GLX of better cost/benefit than Essex Street -> Silver Line?" the answer is emphatically yes.

Remember, heavy rail can't really handle street running and the argument that we're not ripping up Back Bay because it would cost billions (and no, it's not impossible, it's just a hugely megalithic undertaking and would make the Big Dig look cheap in comparison) applies to the Seaport and Southie as well, and the minute you hit World Trade Center Station, you just lost your dedicated ROW and made going any farther a multi-billion-dollar proposition. World Trade Center is a fine station, but it makes for a terrible terminus - especially considering that you're most of the way into Southie already.

Assuming that the Airport's a no-go either way, it makes more sense to at least try and swing on an LRT Silver Line out to City Point, Harborwalk @ L Street, or Pleasure Bay / Castle Island - even if it isn't doable now, keeping the option open for some point in the future when the MBTA gets over its phobia of new street-running lines is better than closing it off with HRT, because you and I both know that tunneling into Southie is just as DOA a proposition as tunneling into Back Bay would be.

The real issue here, in my opinion, is that we absolutely can't possibly touch the Park-Gov't tunnel, and eliminating it means a permanent segregation of the Gov't-north LRT services from the Park-south ones.

Come to think of it, is there any real reason why we can't just dig the HRT tunnels underneath the existing Red Line and Blue Line tunnels? We'd need to reconfigure Park Street and Government Center no matter what we did anyway, and digging underneath the current tunnels doesn't run afoul of the constraints on either side.

Two things about my Essex St thing:

1) I came up with this Essex Street to South Station idea only as an example of the fact that you don't have to build the Riverbank subway to alleviate the issues associated with the Tremont St section. There are other solutions. However, unlike the Riverbank which had no provisions built whatsoever, the P.O. square idea has physical infrastructure as evidence its designers confidence in its future utility.

2) I envisioned it ending at the Black Falcon Terminal, but essentially the same difference as the WTC. Extending it somewhere would be the job of the next generation, just as extending the red line out of Harvard was.

I don't think dead ending it would necessarily be a bad thing because of the current usage patterns of the green line. Only the E goes to Lechmere, and only the C to North Station. Everything else turns at Government Center. This tells me almost everyone from the west's destination is either downtown, or a transfer to another line. If full service isn't justified beyond Government Center, I don't see it being that popular beyond South Station. Linking it up to the Silver Line is just a bonus for the Seaport.

Also, Boylston was historically a transfer station. It was so popular there were plans for a very long time to connect Park St and Boylston into one superstation. I believe, but am not sure, that historically there was more traffic coming in through the pleasant street portal from the south then there was from the west. The only difference is that the Orange Line supplemented, and eventually killed off the southern streetcars, whereas the western ones were the only option.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Park and Gov't Ctr are primarily transfer stations, not so much entrance/exit stations, yes? Therefore I don't think separating the Tremont Subway away from the Boylston Subway would have too much of a negative effect, since the transfers are still there. (Well okay, you loose a one seat transfer to the Blue. This is an issue I can't see fixing without getting this this new line across the harbor. Studies with numbers would have to be done to see if the dual transfer possibility of the green and orange would be sufficient for blue line traffic wishing to go west.

While it would involve underpinning the subway, I believe you could build a new line under the old. However I'm not sure exactly what another tunnel under the existing Red or Blue lines would accomplish? I'm probably just missing something...




There is another point I keep forgetting to bring up. I was in full support of the Riverbank subway for a long time. It was on all my fantasy maps until quite recently. I argued for it. But then I started reading the BTC reports. And really looking at the places it would go and serve. And that is when I became opposed to it.
 
I've been told that converting the existing Green Line tunnel will absolutely destroy all light rail forever and the revolution will have been all for naught if we do it. It will be as though a million residents of Newton and Brookline all cried out at once and were suddenly silenced.

Digging a new tunnel underneath the existing tunnel for the heavy rail Green Line conversion means we can keep the old light rail tunnels around, preventing this dark future from coming to pass.
 
I've been told that converting the existing Green Line tunnel will absolutely destroy all light rail forever and the revolution will have been all for naught if we do it. It will be as though a million residents of Newton and Brookline all cried out at once and were suddenly silenced.

Digging a new tunnel underneath the existing tunnel for the heavy rail Green Line conversion means we can keep the old light rail tunnels around, preventing this dark future from coming to pass.

BACK BAY LANDFILL. The GL tunnel is supported on the same wood pilings the rest of the neighborhood is and protected from groundwater by the same underground network of a zillion pumps. We've been through this before. You're not digging underneath it between Park St. and Hynes...ever.

Riverbank to Kenmore connected to Blue at Charles...yeah, you can do that in a shallow box tunnel on top of the packed roadbed of the Storrow EB carriageway if the road got removed or busted down to a single carriageway. The tunnel would still sit below the level of Back St. at "air rights" level vs. lower cut-and-cover level. As long as you didn't build anything on top of it except grassy fill and air rights road bridges from the side streets over to "Storrow Lane" on the WB carriageway that would avoid all groundwater impacts from BB and the Charles. The only deep-bore portion requiring extra groundwater protection would be the short cutover from Charlesgate under the Muddy River to Kenmore Under. But that clips the very outermost edge of the landfill area at the edge of the bedrock that starts at Kenmore-proper when Beacon St. starts climbing the hill out to Audubon Circle. That is engineering-feasible supported by facts. It was, after all, studied to death over a 20+ year period around turn of the 20th century.


Whatever the fight about the need for a Riverbank, let's please get out of total batshit un-reality about what's physically possible. No amount of raw might is going to allow deep structures built in the Back Bay. Quit getting hung up on this and move on. You're wasting your own time as much as everyone else's stamping feet and getting adamant about this crap.

Look, it's not my intention to keep hammering away at this...but your obstinence about this stuff has totally gone off the deep end the last few pages.
 
No, just the ones that are locked off from public access/usage. That's really my only issue with it, especially given the proximity to at least one (possibly two or three depending on where precisely you draw the property lines for the plant) much better locations that would be accessible and useful to the general public.

Really, the best possible location is probably "no stop at all" considering how close any of those locations and River Works itself are to Lynn. No chance any train can even hit top speed out of one stop before having to slow down for the other.



Low boarding platforms, grade crossings and too-tight curves are three other things that have been around forever, and we're trying to eliminate as many of those things as we possibly can, too.

Actually, much like low boarding platforms, grade crossings, and too-tight curves, all these minor little not-real-issues-in-a-vaccuum pile up and become exponentially worse and worse, until you end up killing yourself with thousands of tiny little paper cuts. Maybe we can't fix all of them, but fixing some of them also makes the ones we can't fix look that much more tolerable.

So, yeah, if we're able to zap every grade crossing on the line, high-level everything up and down, and solve every problem area leading to a speed restriction that's less than 79 mph on the ROW... then yeah, I'll stop bitching about the one tiny little not-really-a-problem that is River Works.

Until that time, 140 riders daily at a Zone 2 fare is $6, $840 daily - multiply that out by 365, we're making somewhere in the vicinity of a whopping $306,000 a year on River Works. It wouldn't cost us anything other than that revenue to drop River Works from the schedule tomorrow, so, sorry that I hold it in about as much regard as I would any grade crossing that we could totally get rid of for $300K.

No, it's not death by a thousand cuts. The time suck is from the speed restrictions, not the stop density. OK...the North Shore Transit Improvements and other studies have gamed this out. Chelsea and Riverworks were supportable on a brisk schedule 30 years ago before the restrictions got slapped down. The intermediate stops and their usage didn't change much...actually, Riverworks usage has shrunk a bit and is bypassed more than it ever was as the GE plant has shed employees. The speed restrictions were what changed.

What part of "the T doesn't maintain Riverworks" is so hard to understand here? It's an inanimate slab of pavement GE maintains to $0 public expense; it's front-door boarding only with zilch impact on the automatic door coaches; and it exempt from ADA. $306K annual offset by $0 in expenses is PROFITABLE. I'll say it again: focus your ire on the Mishawums of the world if you hate low-use flag stops that much. Those are the loss leaders on the commuter rail that the T periodically decides it has to money-dump a slew of cosmetic and accessibility improvements to try in vain to convince people it wasn't a failed experiment.


In tangentially related news, New Hampshire seems to be rallying to finish the Capitol Corridor/NH Main Commuter Rail study. It's too early to tell, but this might be the first signs that New Hampshire is actually maybe getting its act together, in which case there's a non-zero possibility that Portsmouth Commuter Rail is coming down the tracks, and I'd be shocked if it was stopping at Chelsea. We've already got at least one train daily that blows through Chelsea, the 27-minute express trip from Salem you mentioned earlier.

Or, at least, I imagine it would be blowing through Chelsea - but instead, it's crawling through that grade crossing.

It's not a problem, yet - but what's 'working but bad form' in 2013 can certainly balloon into a disaster in 2035. I'd rather have a plan, at least - we don't have to act on it - in place to get rid of the thing if all signs start pointing towards problem, rather than being blindsided in 2035 when "Oops, turns out those things we all dismissed as insignificant non-issues are in fact, Big Problems!"

Death of a thousand paper cuts. Add that grade crossing to the pile with River Works.

For the record, I think that you should be looking at sinking the road and not the tracks, but in the event that the viaduct pilings really are a problem, we'll get a crack at solving that problem when it comes time to replace the Tobin.

That part of the 1 viaduct is not related to the Tobin. The Tobin approach terminates at 4th St. about 1/3 mile away. I don't know how you would ever sink the viaduct or even straighten it there with all the abutting residential density. It straddles property lines. It's damn near impossible to change the configuration without blowing up fewer than 10 houses. All the feasible rework on 1 comes after it returns to embankment-grade after Spruce St. where the next segment of viaduct over Carter St. and Orange St. probably does have flex to realign or sink.

You really wouldn't want to change the grade of the tracks at all because 2nd St., Everett Ave., and Spruce St. are so damn engineering-easy to overpass. N. Shore Transit Improvements have a design and costs (p. 52) in mind for Eastern Ave., which is the most complex of the road overpasses to build because of the extreme width of the road and abutting structures. $19.6M. That's probably lowballed a lot, but say $40M. Figure the potential liability of Chelsea's infamous tanker truck traffic asploding in a giant fireball after evading the gates, and it's worth it on that alone. Establishing that as the high price point, figure similar for Everett Ave. with closeby intersections and less for 2nd St. and Spruce St. overpasses. 3rd St. outright closed. $130-150M for -5 crossings. That is probably half the cost of attempting to grade separate downtown Framingham on the Worcester Line. Who cares if Chelsea station can't be grade separated for 25 more years if ever because of Route 1 dependencies. It's a station stop for both the Eastern Route and future Urban Ring at a low-volume intersection. It's a safe crossing with cosmetic improvements and would be totally unrestricted for an express train if the Everett Ave.- and Eastern Ave.-induced restrictions went away.

You don't NEED perfection here; there is no value-added. It contributes not one extra cut to the death by a thousand cuts. Grade separation only matters in the places where there's a bottleneck on train or road traffic, safety issues, or on a >125 MPH line (which the Chelsea jog physically can never be). It is not a bad thing to have grade crossings when they're unconstrained. Chelsea Station and tiny Oak Island Rd. (which would only go if the Blue Line is sharing the ROW there) can remain forever and do nothing whatsoever to any traffic levels you want to push through this line.

No real argument from me on this, except to say that relocating underneath the viaduct and building out to Spruce Street still leaves the station platforms right up against the grade crossing, and also provides enough space for the MBTA to go hog wild with the overbuilding without having to re-landscape a fairly dense neighborhood - and I doubt that the MBTA can really be talked out of going hog wild, especially since everyone keeps talking about how important Chelsea is going to be.

Abutting the grade crossing on the current location spanning the Arlington/Washington block is the most convenient location if there's an additional ADA egress built up to Washington St. Multiple bus routes touching both ends of the station. You don't get that if you shift it anywhere else. Especially flipping to the viaduct side. There's a lot of upside to be had with ADA access and bus shelters to facilitate the transfers. That's the whole crux of its alleged importance to the T and future as an Urban Ring stop. Plus...abutting a grade crossing at a low volume intersection that can be further protected by traffic signals is the preferred place to site a station when there is a nearby crossing. Trains have the stopping distance to avoid cars and pedestrians. You wouldn't get that shifting up, say, to the Washington-Broadway block when it's going through at a higher speed. And the ADA high platforms are dirt easy and cheap to install at a grade crossing where they can just incline-down 15 feet to the crosswalk. They can get the station accessible by installing a prefab high with prefab shelter, then figuring out Washington access ramps later.

There's no reason whatsoever why we can't drop that street back to surface level and elevate the tracks instead, other than the arbitrary "well it's already been separated out and we're not messing with it anymore" - and, yes, as a package deal with a brand-spanking-new $1B+ bridge, the cost of redoing one grade crossing so that the street goes back to surface level and the tracks are elevated instead is a rounding error. I'd expect that it'd add an even $1 million to the final price tag - or a massive 0.1% cost increase to get rid of all our bridge openings instead of most of our bridge openings.

I have trouble honestly believing that there's any real person who would look at something like that and say "Okay, I'm prepared to sink $1 billion into a brand new bridge, but $1.001 billion is where I draw the line."

No. Because an 80% reduction in Beverly bridge openings buys you all the schedule flex you need, and buys you whole weeks in winter where the thing won't open at all. Stop it with these tactical nuclear strikes...it fucks up abutting residential properties and fucks up a residential intersection where there's already 100% grade separation. If there's zero benefits gained you do not get carte blanche in this universe or one of several parallel universes to blow millions in totally superfluous frills and run roughshod over people's quality of life. That's not noble. It's irresponsible, unethical, and not how this country works. Move on...it's out-of-line.


The Manchester drawbridge can absolutely be disposed of - all the boat facilities are on the other side of the tracks, so it's just a matter of mitigating the loss of this little cove as navigable waters, and it doesn't look to me very much like anything larger than your average speedboat can navigate into that cove already.

No, it can't. The boat landing requires vertical clearance at the grade crossing for pulling boats out for offseason storage in the parking lot. There's not enough running space to elevate the tracks the requisite 25 ft. or whatever after Norton's Point Rd., and you are NOT dictatorially blowing up that overpass either. Move on. It's a stub branchline that doesn't have a ridership ceiling exponentially higher than the pretty robust current service, and isn't tapped out of its own off-main capacity.

I'm not convinced that we can't eliminate Gloucester's drawbridge - we can certainly raise it 10~12 feet without having to touch any existing overpasses. But, even if we can't take care of that bridge entirely, we can mitigate it and zap the other two bridges.

The replacement is going a little higher with a much wider shipping channel underneath. I don't think 10-12 feet high...more like a half-dozen. But the big thing--and the frill the Manchester and Beverly replacements will get--is separate bascules for each track. They raise and lower much faster that way, and permit single-track operation if one track's out of service or has a stuck mechanism. Sort of like a much-minaturized/compact/joined-at-hip version of the North Station draws. All of the NEC bridge replacements are doing this too. It also lets them tear down half the old draw span at a time to install half the new draw span at a time so the line can run single-track during construction without bustitution and still allow openings for the boats.

Separated draw carriageways are the fastest and most reliable type of movable bridge outside of (maximally expensive, for extremely high and wide clearances) lift spans. (Swings like Beverly are the slowest and least reliable). It's vastly better and more nimble than the bridges they're replacing. The existence of draws isn't a bad thing if they move fast enough to keep up with headways. Replacement Rockport bridges of this type can definitely move faster than the highest headways the line can handle. The current ones are small enough that they're not much of a constraint either except for the fact they're so decrepit they keep breaking down.

Or, you know, we can say that none of these bridges are that big of a deal, really, and add all three to that "death of a thousand paper cuts" pile of minor issues not worth bitching over that I've been piling up throughout this post.

Except when it's not a papercut. Jeez...if we follow this logic to the nth degree why do we have any intermediate commuter rail stops at all. Why not grade separate everything, blow up every structure in a curve's path, and run EMU's on 3 minute headways at 150 MPH to the terminus. Sure, it'll only get half the ridership...but who cares?

That's a flippant way of saying that over-counting the number of papercuts is not only counterproductive to solving real problems...at a certain point it crosses into pure masochism.

You don't have to "Fairmount" the line and get headways down to 20 or 15 minutes to have a clock-facing schedule. The important thing is that the train times are all consistent. Frequency is a bonus, don't get me wrong, but if you can get to the point where "the next train is always, always, always going to be X minutes behind the one that just left," then you've got a clock-facing schedule and it doesn't matter if X is 15 minutes or 45/50/60 minutes.

Except...the core commuter rail constituency doesn't need a clock-facing schedule. People from Newburyport and Rockport need a commute-hours schedule and semi-regular 45 min. off-peak without large unexplained gaps. That's it. It's rapidly diminishing returns to keep stuffing through all-day trains that are going to run nearly empty. You think the private RR's would've ever gone bankrupt if there was still demand for that? The commuter rail can't cover its costs with clock-facing off-peak. That's why there's no commuter rail on the continent outside of maybe the Long Island RR's electrified mains that attempts even quasi- clock-facing .

Lynn-Salem is a rapid transit audience. So set a goal of real rapid transit in stages. Build Lynn, make the buses on the outskirts less dysfunctional. Do due diligence on the Eastern Route restrictions so it's firing on all cylinders as a CR line and has good enough headways. DON'T think you're doing them a favor by recasting the CR mode in BRT-like marketing with this clock-facing schedule gimmick. It'll never serve their need or ceiling for full rapid transit, and ultimately becomes a distraction and cop-out against achieving that goal. The logic in setting no price limit on commuter rail upgrades does not wash when the act of attacking all that and then some now punts rapid transit out another generation.

In a perfect universe, cost would never be an object towards getting things done and we could complete all of our infrastructure projects now and forever without ever causing real quality-of-life harm.

We're not living in a perfect universe. We're living in a universe where, yes, sometimes NIMBY pearl-clutching over the impacts of doing X is just that. And, sometimes, doing X really will cause quality-of-life harm, or require a sledgehammer application of eminent domain, or leave a swathe of destruction in its wake - but, unfortunately, X is also mission critical to the success of project Y, and failure to do X will result in the failure of project Y, possibly to the great detriment of far more people than you 'avoided harming' to begin with.

To be clear, I'm not convinced that the tunnel or tunnels really are mission critical - and, fortunately, it's going to be a long time before we necessarily need to come to that "they are / they aren't" conclusion. As far as the Blue Line component of all this - I'm certainly open to the idea that we cut it at South Salem - my chief argument against cutting it at South Salem is that doing so will probably result in a second garage being built and the first one at North Salem being wasted.

But if the rail tunnel turns out to be mission critical for rail services, and at the end of the day the choice is between leaving ourselves with a crippled set of services OR doing real quality-of-life harm to some people, then, yes, sorry, I'm going to go with "do harm to people." It's not realistic to expect that we do everything that needs to be done without eventually harming somebody, somewhere.

When that time comes, if that time comes, it certainly won't be unilateral - I expect it to be a messy, uphill struggle to get anything big done, with hearings and lawsuits and a lot of very sad stories about the Real Life Impacts on the ground. The difference between you and I is that I expect it to happen anyway - I expect the voices of the people who don't want to live with a broken system to be louder than the people who don't want to live through the collateral impacts of fixing it.

And I'll say it again, that is a horrible and ominous attitude responsible for a great deal of irredeemable destruction to the urban fabric in the name of 20th century "progress". It's antithetical to a representative democracy to have oligarchs and dictators unilaterally telling people what's in their own interests and totally snuffing out input. It's antithetical to people's quality of lives to reduce humans to 'collateral damage' on a map. It's absolute power that corrupts absolutely. It's dehumanizing. If that means backing down on some (non- openly coddled) NIMBY complaints, so be it. The very act of people being allowed to vote their own interests on balance ends up preventing more destruction than it impedes progress. Robert Moses is dead. Stop trying to dig him up. It's off-the-deep-end irresponsible to push this as a default argument to blow up and remake every single inch of transit infrastructure in this state. Even the stuff that ain't broke. Resources are finite. Perfection is impossible. People in this country do (and should) have their quality of life and self-determination given more weight than their leaders...who ostensibly represent, not dictate them. Refusing to ever ever acknowledge that or rationalizing it as an argument for unilateral dictates over the will of stupid rubes is borderline unhinged.
 
We're more than capable of tunneling through Back Bay's fill. It'd require a massive documentation project that would certainly involve a lot of shit getting ripped up so that we could have a precise understanding of everything that's holding Back Bay together instead of a bunch of "rough ideas" and mystery payloads, and then it would require shifting all of this infrastructure around as necessary before you could run a new tunnel, but it is not physically impossible. Fiscally impossible, yes, I as much as said it would cost $20B+ to do, which you either missed or ignored while you were too busy conflating my posts with the guy who's ACTUALLY arguing for converting the Boylston Street Subway so that you could jump over two pages of what I think is some pretty engaging discussion, all so you could "Gotcha!" a post I made clarifying a point for davem. But not physically impossible. Not even close - we've had all the technology we would need to get this underway for decades now. The only thing stopping us is the price tag, political willpower, and all the people we'd have to go through in the process.

Not that it matters either way, since you'll note that the scope of digging a new heavy rail tunnel underneath the existing Central Subway (and not the Boylston Street Subway) is, at absolute most, Boylston Station to North Station, and probably less than that depending on inclines and physical constraints, but also doesn't even come close to touching Back Bay's fill. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure Tremont Street sits on age-old terra firma.

But, hey, as long as we're here, is there anything else you'd like to "Gotcha!" me on?

EDIT:

Neither is sending humans to Mars for $1T impossible. But please tell me what manifest destiny lurks in the mush under the Back Bay that makes proving that humankind can do it worth a cost several billion greater than the Big Dig and introducing severe negative impacts on Boston's highest revenue-generating neighborhood. There is no ridership figure you can pin on that to justify the limit as cost approaches infinity and the limit as engineering feasibility approaches zero worth even a moment's consideration.

Which is why I haven't been arguing that we should do it.
 
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We're more than capable of tunneling through Back Bay's fill. It'd require a massive documentation project that would certainly involve a lot of shit getting ripped up so that we could have a precise understanding of everything that's holding Back Bay together instead of a bunch of "rough ideas" and mystery payloads, and then it would require shifting all of this infrastructure around as necessary before you could run a new tunnel, but it is not physically impossible. Fiscally impossible, yes, I as much as said it would cost $20B+ to do, which you either missed or ignored while you were too busy conflating my posts with the guy who's ACTUALLY arguing for converting the Boylston Street Subway so that you could jump over two pages of what I think is some pretty engaging discussion, all so you could "Gotcha!" a post I made clarifying a point for davem.

Neither is sending humans to Mars for $1T impossible. But please tell me what manifest destiny lurks in the mush under the Back Bay that makes proving that humankind can do it worth a cost several billion greater than the Big Dig and introducing severe negative impacts on Boston's highest revenue-generating neighborhood. There is no ridership figure you can pin on that to justify the limit as cost approaches infinity and the limit as engineering feasibility approaches zero worth even a moment's consideration.
 
No, it's not death by a thousand cuts. The time suck is from the speed restrictions, not the stop density. OK...the North Shore Transit Improvements and other studies have gamed this out. Chelsea and Riverworks were supportable on a brisk schedule 30 years ago before the restrictions got slapped down. The intermediate stops and their usage didn't change much...actually, Riverworks usage has shrunk a bit and is bypassed more than it ever was as the GE plant has shed employees. The speed restrictions were what changed.

What part of "the T doesn't maintain Riverworks" is so hard to understand here? It's an inanimate slab of pavement GE maintains to $0 public expense; it's front-door boarding only with zilch impact on the automatic door coaches; and it exempt from ADA. $306K annual offset by $0 in expenses is PROFITABLE. I'll say it again: focus your ire on the Mishawums of the world if you hate low-use flag stops that much. Those are the loss leaders on the commuter rail that the T periodically decides it has to money-dump a slew of cosmetic and accessibility improvements to try in vain to convince people it wasn't a failed experiment.

Don't think that my single-minded focus on Riverworks means I'm particularly happy with any of those stations, either. This one just happened to be the subject of conversation at the time.

I do understand that the T doesn't maintain Riverworks - that's part of what irritates me about it. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

That part of the 1 viaduct is not related to the Tobin. The Tobin approach terminates at 4th St. about 1/3 mile away. I don't know how you would ever sink the viaduct or even straighten it there with all the abutting residential density. It straddles property lines. It's damn near impossible to change the configuration without blowing up fewer than 10 houses. All the feasible rework on 1 comes after it returns to embankment-grade after Spruce St. where the next segment of viaduct over Carter St. and Orange St. probably does have flex to realign or sink.

I disagree - the entire viaduct portion of the Northeast Expressway is a package deal. Touch one part of it, touch all of it - especially when it comes time for us to actually replace the Tobin Bridge.

Assuming the Tobin Bridge ends up moving when it comes time to replace it, I'd expect it and the viaduct to move closer to Broadway, and ideally, require mostly industrial takes that could be mitigated by providing the freed land formerly occupied by the Expressway. The two parts of the expressway would be permanently disjointed, but I don't think that's a real problem since the Expressway was never finished out to 128 anyway.

You really wouldn't want to change the grade of the tracks at all because 2nd St., Everett Ave., and Spruce St. are so damn engineering-easy to overpass. N. Shore Transit Improvements have a design and costs (p. 52) in mind for Eastern Ave., which is the most complex of the road overpasses to build because of the extreme width of the road and abutting structures. $19.6M. That's probably lowballed a lot, but say $40M. Figure the potential liability of Chelsea's infamous tanker truck traffic asploding in a giant fireball after evading the gates, and it's worth it on that alone. Establishing that as the high price point, figure similar for Everett Ave. with closeby intersections and less for 2nd St. and Spruce St. overpasses. 3rd St. outright closed. $130-150M for -5 crossings. That is probably half the cost of attempting to grade separate downtown Framingham on the Worcester Line. Who cares if Chelsea station can't be grade separated for 25 more years if ever because of Route 1 dependencies. It's a station stop for both the Eastern Route and future Urban Ring at a low-volume intersection. It's a safe crossing with cosmetic improvements and would be totally unrestricted for an express train if the Everett Ave.- and Eastern Ave.-induced restrictions went away.

You don't NEED perfection here; there is no value-added. It contributes not one extra cut to the death by a thousand cuts. Grade separation only matters in the places where there's a bottleneck on train or road traffic, safety issues, or on a >125 MPH line (which the Chelsea jog physically can never be). It is not a bad thing to have grade crossings when they're unconstrained. Chelsea Station and tiny Oak Island Rd. (which would only go if the Blue Line is sharing the ROW there) can remain forever and do nothing whatsoever to any traffic levels you want to push through this line.

Since I'm in the mood to confess already anyway, I'm going to confess that I want that crossing gone because I predict that otherwise, Chelsea Station is going to become the northside equivalent of Boston Back Bay, which I'd like to see avoided if possible.

Abutting the grade crossing on the current location spanning the Arlington/Washington block is the most convenient location if there's an additional ADA egress built up to Washington St. Multiple bus routes touching both ends of the station. You don't get that if you shift it anywhere else. Especially flipping to the viaduct side. There's a lot of upside to be had with ADA access and bus shelters to facilitate the transfers. That's the whole crux of its alleged importance to the T and future as an Urban Ring stop. Plus...abutting a grade crossing at a low volume intersection that can be further protected by traffic signals is the preferred place to site a station when there is a nearby crossing. Trains have the stopping distance to avoid cars and pedestrians. You wouldn't get that shifting up, say, to the Washington-Broadway block when it's going through at a higher speed. And the ADA high platforms are dirt easy and cheap to install at a grade crossing where they can just incline-down 15 feet to the crosswalk. They can get the station accessible by installing a prefab high with prefab shelter, then figuring out Washington access ramps later.

Fine.

No. Because an 80% reduction in Beverly bridge openings buys you all the schedule flex you need, and buys you whole weeks in winter where the thing won't open at all. Stop it with these tactical nuclear strikes...it fucks up abutting residential properties and fucks up a residential intersection where there's already 100% grade separation. If there's zero benefits gained you do not get carte blanche in this universe or one of several parallel universes to blow millions in totally superfluous frills and run roughshod over people's quality of life. That's not noble. It's irresponsible, unethical, and not how this country works. Move on...it's out-of-line.

I think there's great benefit to be conveyed by eliminating 100% of the bridge openings instead of just 80% (especially since we can't predict how the 20% remaining crossings would apply to future traffic), and I'm not seeing how it's going to fuck up abutting residential properties. There will be temporary disruption to the street, but other than that, it shouldn't require any additional takes. Neither the street profile nor the ROW profile should change any, only the relative elevation would flip.

No, it can't. The boat landing requires vertical clearance at the grade crossing for pulling boats out for offseason storage in the parking lot. There's not enough running space to elevate the tracks the requisite 25 ft. or whatever after Norton's Point Rd., and you are NOT dictatorially blowing up that overpass either. Move on. It's a stub branchline that doesn't have a ridership ceiling exponentially higher than the pretty robust current service, and isn't tapped out of its own off-main capacity.

I want to point out that I said we'd keep that grade crossing and eliminate the drawbridge - in other words, just replace the draw with a fixed-span equivalent and close off that cove to water traffic. It's not a particularly large cove and there's nothing but docks in it, docks which can be easily moved to the other side of the tracks.

The replacement is going a little higher with a much wider shipping channel underneath. I don't think 10-12 feet high...more like a half-dozen. But the big thing--and the frill the Manchester and Beverly replacements will get--is separate bascules for each track. They raise and lower much faster that way, and permit single-track operation if one track's out of service or has a stuck mechanism. Sort of like a much-minaturized/compact/joined-at-hip version of the North Station draws. All of the NEC bridge replacements are doing this too. It also lets them tear down half the old draw span at a time to install half the new draw span at a time so the line can run single-track during construction without bustitution and still allow openings for the boats.

Separated draw carriageways are the fastest and most reliable type of movable bridge outside of (maximally expensive, for extremely high and wide clearances) lift spans. (Swings like Beverly are the slowest and least reliable). It's vastly better and more nimble than the bridges they're replacing. The existence of draws isn't a bad thing if they move fast enough to keep up with headways. Replacement Rockport bridges of this type can definitely move faster than the highest headways the line can handle. The current ones are small enough that they're not much of a constraint either except for the fact they're so decrepit they keep breaking down.

Fundamentally, the existence of any kind of movable bridge represents the potential for things to be screwed up due to factors entirely outside of our control (read: the marine industry.) I would like to minimize the number of opportunities for giant boats to cause a train to be an hour late, since unlike most of the things that cause Amtrak/Commuter Rail to be late today, "delayed by open drawbridge" is both an easily preventable occurrence and pretty well outside of the railroad's control.

Except when it's not a papercut. Jeez...if we follow this logic to the nth degree why do we have any intermediate commuter rail stops at all. Why not grade separate everything, blow up every structure in a curve's path, and run EMU's on 3 minute headways at 150 MPH to the terminus. Sure, it'll only get half the ridership...but who cares?

That's a flippant way of saying that over-counting the number of papercuts is not only counterproductive to solving real problems...at a certain point it crosses into pure masochism.

I don't think we're at the point where we've crossed over into pure masochism yet.

Except...the core commuter rail constituency doesn't need a clock-facing schedule. People from Newburyport and Rockport need a commute-hours schedule and semi-regular 45 min. off-peak without large unexplained gaps. That's it. It's rapidly diminishing returns to keep stuffing through all-day trains that are going to run nearly empty. You think the private RR's would've ever gone bankrupt if there was still demand for that? The commuter rail can't cover its costs with clock-facing off-peak. That's why there's no commuter rail on the continent outside of maybe the Long Island RR's electrified mains that attempts even quasi- clock-facing .

Lynn-Salem is a rapid transit audience. So set a goal of real rapid transit in stages. Build Lynn, make the buses on the outskirts less dysfunctional. Do due diligence on the Eastern Route restrictions so it's firing on all cylinders as a CR line and has good enough headways. DON'T think you're doing them a favor by recasting the CR mode in BRT-like marketing with this clock-facing schedule gimmick. It'll never serve their need or ceiling for full rapid transit, and ultimately becomes a distraction and cop-out against achieving that goal. The logic in setting no price limit on commuter rail upgrades does not wash when the act of attacking all that and then some now punts rapid transit out another generation.

A regular 45-minute off peak schedule is the only thing I really want for the commuter rail side of this. That's my main goal here, getting to the point where a regular 45-minute schedule is doable. If you don't want me to call it clock-facing, I won't call it clock-facing.

Yes, Salem's a rapid transit audience... in 2050. I don't think you're necessarily doing them any favors either by insisting that we can't ever improve their commuter rail experience before 2050 or else... what, exactly? I'm not saying "do this instead of rapid transit," I'm saying "do this because it can be done today and will improve the situation temporarily while we wait until rapid transit is feasible."

This isn't either-or. I'm not arguing either-or - I'm arguing do one now and the other later.

And I'll say it again, that is a horrible and ominous attitude responsible for a great deal of irredeemable destruction to the urban fabric in the name of 20th century "progress". It's antithetical to a representative democracy to have oligarchs and dictators unilaterally telling people what's in their own interests and totally snuffing out input. It's antithetical to people's quality of lives to reduce humans to 'collateral damage' on a map. It's absolute power that corrupts absolutely. It's dehumanizing. If that means backing down on some (non- openly coddled) NIMBY complaints, so be it. The very act of people being allowed to vote their own interests on balance ends up preventing more destruction than it impedes progress. Robert Moses is dead. Stop trying to dig him up. It's off-the-deep-end irresponsible to push this as a default argument to blow up and remake every single inch of transit infrastructure in this state. Even the stuff that ain't broke. Resources are finite. Perfection is impossible. People in this country do (and should) have their quality of life and self-determination given more weight than their leaders...who ostensibly represent, not dictate them. Refusing to ever ever acknowledge that or rationalizing it as an argument for unilateral dictates over the will of stupid rubes is borderline unhinged.

I'm not denying that attitudes like mine are at the root cause of a lot of damage done in the past. I'm not. And I'm really very sorry for all the damage that was done in the past and that will be done in the future because of people with attitudes like mine who are calling the shots and choose to go forward anyway with the wind at their backs and the support of a thousand people who stand to benefit for every one person who gets trampled by progress that wasn't on their side.

But I'm not going to apologize for doing it anyway, because while I may ultimately be in the wrong for being so forward, I believe that "first do no harm" is an insane overcorrection and doesn't really work.

Doing no harm is impossible. I'm sorry. I'm not pursuing perfection - I argue for perfection, but I accept being argued/negotiated/mitigated down to "good but not perfect." I'm pursuing "actually works," and I'm afraid that sometimes you're going to have to go through people for "actually works." I like to think that I'm at least honest and upfront about the collateral damage, rather than trying to hide or obfuscate the amount of real-world harm that might be done.

You go back far enough and I'm sure an awful lot of people had to suffer when the very first rights-of-way were mapped out by the nascent railroad industry. I'm sure that even back in the 1800s, there were people who lost everything as we pushed out and pushed forward. That didn't change when what we were building changed. Robert Moses was not the first person to come along and do what he did, and no matter what you or I or anyone else on this forum says, does, or thinks, he's not going to be the last person to do it, either.

And for the record, I'm sorry for snapping at you.
 
I do understand that the T doesn't maintain Riverworks - that's part of what irritates me about it.

So your mad that the MBTA doesn't have to pay a cent for a station and has a guaranteed income from GE and its employees?

Are you mad that New Balance is building a Brighton Station, too?
 
So your mad that the MBTA doesn't have to pay a cent for a station and has a guaranteed income from GE and its employees?

Are you mad that New Balance is building a Brighton Station, too?

There's a difference between the station that GE built for itself and the station that New Balance is building for Brighton, namely, New Brighton Landing is actually in a location that's useful for the general public.

Also, New Balance isn't checking IDs at the door and turning away everyone who doesn't work for them.

(FYI, if GE was willing to move Riverworks up to Commercial Street/Lynnway and make it publicly accessible, I'd be thrilled.)
 
the guy who's ACTUALLY arguing for converting the Boylston Street Subway so that you could jump over two pages of what I think is some pretty engaging discussion, all so you could "Gotcha!" a post I made clarifying a point for davem.

CBS, I'm still looking forward to your rebuttal. Everyone else who wants to/has chimed in too.

I'll admit, I'm just not as interested in commuter rail as rapid transit. Yes I can tell the difference between a F40 and a geep while theyre flying by at 68mph, but at this point I could be a tour guide of the subway. I think it all stems from my urban exploration obsession, tunnels are just more fun.


As for the whole riverworks issue, I don't have a problem with it for all the reasons stated above. There is an employees only platform at BET too, although that obviously is a different animal. I would imagine if the blue line ever did get extended an RT stop would be required to be publically accessable. However at this point I think even if the CR stop was moved and opened to the public, its so far away from anything no one other than GE employees would use it anyway.

What I think SHOULD HAVE happened is that the Lynn garage not have been built in the first place, but placed at Riverworks instead. But unless the thing collapses in on itself a'la Quincy Center I don't think that will happen anytime soon.
 
So many things to quote and so many conversations going, I'm just going to direct this at davem:

The problem with sending any sort of HRT to Watertown from Brighton is going to be the Turnpike crossing. While I'm sure it's physically possible to construct a deep bore subway tunnel under a trenched expressway, it would likely be incredibly expensive (not to mention making for some incredibly long systems of escalators. My best idea would be a combo DMU/HRT station underneath the Gateway Center, with essentially a cut-and-cover underneath the DMU platform, but that seems like it would mean closing half the highway at a time to build the tunnel. The alternative would be a station something over 100 feet beneath the level of the street. It would be incredibly expensive to do, and a street-running LRT line that traverses Watertown Square, Newton Corner traffic, AND the Circle of Death interchange (the most dangerous in the state)? That's simply unthinkable.

The fact remains that if you want to serve new developments at Beacon Park Yards, New Brighton Landing, etc, there already is an available and easily usable corridor in the Worcester Line, which connects all of those points with Downtown. In the case of Watertown, Arsenal St. is primed for some sort of transit corridor. It's not just a question of whether people in Watertown want to get to Porter. Beyond Porter, it's 4 stops before North Station counting an infill between Porter and Union Square. Yes, you pass Fresh Pond, but that's about 3/4 mile of a 7.5 mile line - riding it all the way in would be like Chestnut Hill to Park St, which seems pretty manageable to me.

One issue with that line is that the ROW is not entirely available, leading to the question of whether you would use the old ROW and have to take land (largely parking lots, but 1 building) or whether you could build it into the Arsenal St. median, which I'd prefer. For the Greenway, well, you could build a parallel trail/LRT thing.

One more thing: no way Newton isn't dense enough for HRT but Needham is. I've done a whole explanation before of why a 128 park-and-ride at Gould St. makes less sense than one at Riverside, so I won't do that again. Suffice to say: very few highway drivers would reach it before another existing park-and-ride.
 
Don't think that my single-minded focus on Riverworks means I'm particularly happy with any of those stations, either. This one just happened to be the subject of conversation at the time.

I do understand that the T doesn't maintain Riverworks - that's part of what irritates me about it. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

Riverworks isn't accessible to anything except the GE plant, so why should the public maintain it? It is technically open to the public if you're willing to walk 1/3 mile down the rear access driveway from Route 107...but who does that? Flag stops with that light a usage are exempt from ADA; there is nothing legally compelling anyone to put frills on that one. Are you suggesting the T plunk $75M to build a whole new West Lynn station up by Commercial St./Bike to the Sea right this instant? And make it a headway-dragging full-time stop? For aesthetic hegemony with the rest of the stops? While we're twisting ourselves in knots about death from thousand cuts? And lamenting that the T spends too much on station frills it doesn't need to?

I disagree - the entire viaduct portion of the Northeast Expressway is a package deal. Touch one part of it, touch all of it - especially when it comes time for us to actually replace the Tobin Bridge.

Assuming the Tobin Bridge ends up moving when it comes time to replace it, I'd expect it and the viaduct to move closer to Broadway, and ideally, require mostly industrial takes that could be mitigated by providing the freed land formerly occupied by the Expressway. The two parts of the expressway would be permanently disjointed, but I don't think that's a real problem since the Expressway was never finished out to 128 anyway.

Yeah...and when exactly is the Tobin expected to be ripped down and replaced? Not before 2050; it's currently 62 years into a hundred-year design lifespan. And if they decide another major rehab is better value than an outright replacement, that might hit 125 years. It's not the Tappan Zee, ready to topple over...fugly-looking and invasive as it is that thing is it's a cantilevered truss overbuilt that there is no structural or traffic-related justification for MassHighway to prematurely replace it. You can't tie an unrelated bridge of unknown final lifespan outside of the MBTA's jurisdiction to the planned zapping of one non-critical grade crossing. Project scope isn't this unlimited thing that can balloon and start sucking up every civilly engineered structure in ever-widening radius around some little fiddely bit. Tobin replacement's a separate thread, separate project scope altogether. You have to treat its existence--and its existence forcing that grade crossing's existence--as a constant within this project scope.


Since I'm in the mood to confess already anyway, I'm going to confess that I want that crossing gone because I predict that otherwise, Chelsea Station is going to become the northside equivalent of Boston Back Bay, which I'd like to see avoided if possible.

Who said it's going to become the northside's BBY equivalent??? It's max build is as one intermediate stop of moderate importance on the Urban Ring, a minor intermediate stop on the third or fourth-largest CR main on the system, and a bus transfer for 3+ well-patronized Chelsea routes a little bit sub- "key bus routes" on the system. It will always be an intermediate with all services passing through, and always be smaller than a genuine hub like Lynn. It barely cracks the Top 10 in potential ridership on proposed UR stops, because of how many large-ridership hubs are already included on the UR routing. What in the bloody hyperbole hell puts it in BBY's universe on utilization?

I think there's great benefit to be conveyed by eliminating 100% of the bridge openings instead of just 80% (especially since we can't predict how the 20% remaining crossings would apply to future traffic), and I'm not seeing how it's going to fuck up abutting residential properties. There will be temporary disruption to the street, but other than that, it shouldn't require any additional takes. Neither the street profile nor the ROW profile should change any, only the relative elevation would flip.

Which you CAN'T do without cutting River St. off the neighborhood street grid. The intersection rests on the bridge's abutments. Reconfigure River to preserve the intersection and you have to blow up minimum 3 residences.

There are NO additional headways you can cram through Beverly on the 20% of seasonally-skewed bridge openings remaining. The branches (esp. Rockport) don't have capacity ceiling for it to matter, Beverly itself is outside the scope of the rapid transit headway audience, and the tentatively planned higher dual-track bascule can open/close faster than the time it would take to delay any train on either side of even a clock-facing schedule. Not even the NEC needs all its movables eliminated to hit its tippy-top throughput. It's only a handful of the vexing ones on major navigable waterways--clustered almost entirely on the NHV-NLD segment--that present any real constraints. Beverly Draw and the Eastern Route don't even belong in the same conversation.

Produce some empirical evidence that this matters outside of your own sense of aesthetic perfection.

I want to point out that I said we'd keep that grade crossing and eliminate the [Manchester] drawbridge - in other words, just replace the draw with a fixed-span equivalent and close off that cove to water traffic. It's not a particularly large cove and there's nothing but docks in it, docks which can be easily moved to the other side of the tracks.

Fundamentally, the existence of any kind of movable bridge represents the potential for things to be screwed up due to factors entirely outside of our control (read: the marine industry.) I would like to minimize the number of opportunities for giant boats to cause a train to be an hour late, since unlike most of the things that cause Amtrak/Commuter Rail to be late today, "delayed by open drawbridge" is both an easily preventable occurrence and pretty well outside of the railroad's control.

That's a very busy cove. Not Gloucester-level traffic and not a large cove, but the in/out traffic is very heavy and it has legally-protected marine priority. That rests on 150 years of caselaw preventing a RR monopoly from doing exactly what you're proposing: steamroll other modes out of existence at-will. That's not going to change. Manchester-by-the-Sea's economy is more reliant on the revenue that cove pumps in than it is the Rockport Line and whatever schedule ceiling the Rockport Line can handle.

Understand, though, that marine priority ≠ schedule priority. Marine priority means the bridge stays open for at-will marine moves whenever there's not a train. The trains do get allotted schedule closings when they are in range. A yacht owner can't override that and demand instant gratification. So who frickin' cares when it doesn't constrain even the largest schedule Rockport can handle? And who cares when a replacement bascule with quicker movable spans for each track can open/close faster than a moving train departing Beverly Farms would ever reach it?


A regular 45-minute off peak schedule is the only thing I really want for the commuter rail side of this. That's my main goal here, getting to the point where a regular 45-minute schedule is doable. If you don't want me to call it clock-facing, I won't call it clock-facing.

And we're 15 minutes from that point today. So fix the speed restrictions, the reliability concerns with the two mainline draw spans, and make train meets stageable through the tunnel with double-track platforms on each end and you are at 45 minute headways without blowing up anything.

If that's your goal why are you fixating on billion-dollar solutions that displace neighborhoods and cause economic harm to vital marine traffic? You're there. Why the tactical nuclear strikes when you're already there? You don't gain anything more except Transit OCD indulgence and power to push people around. If you're arguing that the ends justify the means, then your ends are quite different than 45 minute headways.

Yes, Salem's a rapid transit audience... in 2050. I don't think you're necessarily doing them any favors either by insisting that we can't ever improve their commuter rail experience before 2050 or else... what, exactly? I'm not saying "do this instead of rapid transit," I'm saying "do this because it can be done today and will improve the situation temporarily while we wait until rapid transit is feasible."

This isn't either-or. I'm not arguing either-or - I'm arguing do one now and the other later.

Does blowing up the Tobin count as something we can do before 2050? If you're going to hold rapid transit to a timeline, then sort out some coherence in the timeline for all this other billions in frills beyond "45 minute headways".



I'm not denying that attitudes like mine are at the root cause of a lot of damage done in the past. I'm not. And I'm really very sorry for all the damage that was done in the past and that will be done in the future because of people with attitudes like mine who are calling the shots and choose to go forward anyway with the wind at their backs and the support of a thousand people who stand to benefit for every one person who gets trampled by progress that wasn't on their side.

But I'm not going to apologize for doing it anyway, because while I may ultimately be in the wrong for being so forward, I believe that "first do no harm" is an insane overcorrection and doesn't really work.

Doing no harm is impossible. I'm sorry. I'm not pursuing perfection - I argue for perfection, but I accept being argued/negotiated/mitigated down to "good but not perfect." I'm pursuing "actually works," and I'm afraid that sometimes you're going to have to go through people for "actually works." I like to think that I'm at least honest and upfront about the collateral damage, rather than trying to hide or obfuscate the amount of real-world harm that might be done.

You go back far enough and I'm sure an awful lot of people had to suffer when the very first rights-of-way were mapped out by the nascent railroad industry. I'm sure that even back in the 1800s, there were people who lost everything as we pushed out and pushed forward. That didn't change when what we were building changed. Robert Moses was not the first person to come along and do what he did, and no matter what you or I or anyone else on this forum says, does, or thinks, he's not going to be the last person to do it, either.

And it's attitudes like that that allowed history to happen, and history to repeat itself. Once you throw out the obligation to "do no harm" in a representative democracy you're on the path to absolute power that corrupts. You're not clarifying that stance, you're doubling-down on it. That's horrifying.
 

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