Crazy Transit Pitches

[samsongam]

You don’t have to eliminate any CR lines, the target goal is to increase frequency to Brockton specifically. Beyond that frequency for the CR can be hourly. Does anyone know what the capacity of the OC line is from Braintree-SS? Bi-directional All day hourly frequency for the other 2 lines may be doable. That’s only 6 TPH in the single-track sections.

I appreciate the desire to serve the largest population center between Quincy and Providence/Fall River/ New Bedford, especially compared to the much smaller cities and towns surrounding it. However, it seems a lot better value on the whole to increase Brockton service through CR rather than trying to extend further the longest end of an already branched line.

The cost would be massive to grade separate, build stations, and widen the ROW to accommodate triple tracking (with stations). All that to serve one destination every 9-13 minutes on a much longer trip to Boston. Compare that to the cost of double tracking Braintree to Montello, a turnback track after Campello for short turns, and focusing your money on double tracking through Quincy. This way you improve the frequency/experience for the entire South shore and the short turn could get you to 15-20 minute frequency on a faster trip to the city. As we move closer to battery/electric regional rail, the advantages of heavy rail subway are lessened but expansions will cost a lot more. If they don't bring system wide improvements (like Orange to Reading and sending Haverhill trains via wildcat branch), I think it's pretty hard to argue for their value as a straight swap.

 

[BosMaineiac]

I appreciate the desire to serve the largest population center between Quincy and Providence/Fall River/ New Bedford, especially compared to the much smaller cities and towns surrounding it. However, it seems a lot better value on the whole to increase Brockton service through CR rather than trying to extend further the longest end of an already branched line.

The cost would be massive to grade separate, build stations, and widen the ROW to accommodate triple tracking (with stations). All that to serve one destination every 9-13 minutes on a much longer trip to Boston. Compare that to the cost of double tracking Braintree to Montello, a turnback track after Campello for short turns, and focusing your money on double tracking through Quincy. This way you improve the frequency/experience for the entire South shore and the short turn could get you to 15-20 minute frequency on a faster trip to the city. As we move closer to battery/electric regional rail, the advantages of heavy rail subway are lessened but expansions will cost a lot more. If they don't bring system wide improvements (like Orange to Reading and sending Haverhill trains via wildcat branch), I think it's pretty hard to argue for their value as a straight swap.

I agree with you on the last part, but I wouldn’t downplay the cost of double tracking through Quincy, which will surely be in the billions. The Cape Main ROW appears to already be wide enough for 3 tracks so adding RL tracks likely won’t be as expensive. I’m bringing this up as a consideration for an alternative (which there should be many that are analyzed for a project of this magnitude).

Perhaps tying a RL extension to a RedX proposal is a necessary way to look at this. That was previously the idea of the Columbia junction with the intention of trains terminating at South Station.

 

[Stlin]

I would point out that my original concept for red lining Brockton would have been contigent on a full build of SCR phase 2 (with full double track through the hockomock), as a substitute to quad tracking through Quincy. That would allow you to unload Fall River and New Bedford onto the Stoughton routing. Then by unloading the Middleboro OC line, by transforming it into Red as far as Campello. The two remaining OC lines, Kingston / Greenbush, could probably run happily in a 30min Regional Rail universe despite the single track through Quincy.

You can continue to serve Bridgewater and Lakeville, which even in a regional rail universe were looking at 30min frequencies, via a Campello - East Taunton Dinky. Cape service can be provided by using the middleboro secondary in "reverse" to how Phase 1 SCR uses it - running down the Stoughton branch before taking the middleboro.

 

[BosMaineiac]

I would point out that my original concept for red lining Brockton would have been contigent on a full build of SCR phase 2 (with full double track through the hockomock), as a substitute to quad tracking through Quincy. That would allow you to unload Fall River and New Bedford onto the Stoughton routing. Then by unloading the Middleboro OC line, by transforming it into Red as far as Campello. The two remaining OC lines, Kingston / Greenbush, could probably run happily in a 30min Regional Rail universe despite the single track through Quincy.

You can continue to serve Bridgewater and Lakeville, which even in a regional rail universe were looking at 30min frequencies, via a Campello - East Taunton Dinky. Cape service can be provided by using the middleboro secondary in "reverse" to how Phase 1 SCR uses it - running down the Stoughton branch before taking the middleboro.

Yes, I do recall seeing your proposal for that. Definitely an alternative worth exploring!

 

[samsongam]

I agree with you on the last part, but I wouldn’t downplay the cost of double tracking through Quincy, which will surely be in the billions. The Cape Main ROW appears to already be wide enough for 3 tracks so adding RL tracks likely won’t be as expensive. I’m bringing this up as a consideration for an alternative (which there should be many that are analyzed for a project of this magnitude).

Perhaps tying a RL extension to a RedX proposal is a necessary way to look at this. That was previously the idea of the Columbia junction with the intention of trains terminating at South Station.

Yeah I think it's an interesting idea, definitely worth considering within the scope of just Brockton because it provides the best possible frequency, but I don't think it's better on much else.

I don't mean to downplay the cost of a fourth track through Quincy, it's going to be an incredible amount of money. I just think that you get a whole lot more for that money in comparison. Converting the ROW to Red Line standards is also going to be a whole lot of money. The ROW is wide enough in most places except for the most important spot in Downtown Brockton, where it is mostly surrounded by private property. It would be very expensive to put additional fully enclosed platforms with fare-gates here. If you try to save on costs by bypassing Brockton entirely on the CR, Brockton riders lose their access South of Campello forever. You'd also have to rebuild and add very expensive bridges/ elevated sections not to mention a yard somewhere.

It's not exactly apples to apples, but consider how much GLX cost (more expansive land purchases closer to Boston and poor management/planning from the beginning) for much smaller green line trains on a mostly existing ROW and with all the station downgrades (removal of faregates in particular). $2.3 billion for less than half the length of a Brockton red line extension.

For me it's a question of do we spend a lot of money to provide better service to the 6th most populous city in Mass alone, or do we spend a little more money than that to provide close to as good service to the 6th most populous city as well as much more improved service to the 7th, 8th, 9th (New Bedford and Fall River, depending on funding/timing of SCR 2), 20th, 23rd, 28th, 42nd, 49th, and more. (Everett is 27, Chelsea is 40, and Wellesley is 64 for reference). Now I know population is not a perfect metric either but I just want to show how many more people's lives will improve in addition to Brocktonians ( I think it's 6 to 15 times the reach depending on if SCR 2 has been completed) by focusing Quincy double instead of trying to extend Red. To me it seems like a no-brainer which is better at the end of the day and you definitely can't justify doing both, but maybe there's something I'm missing or my valuations are off.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

BAT buses across the street from Brockton station depart every :30 on the :30/:00 at peak with only a couple schedule outliers for longer routes, so for getting around the city with transfers 6-minute Red Line branch frequencies are somewhat wasted because you'll be laying over for a few Red frequencies' worth on the transfers. The ridership bump to 6 min. rail frequencies from the :15 or so that a properly upgraded Regional Rail could provide (if you supplemented :30 to Middleboro with some Brockton Station short-turns and made use of the extant third track downtown for layovers) is not that large. I think :30 Regional Rail to start (by double-tracking the mainline to Braintree to uncork that frequency on all 3 branches) and then :15 short-turns as a later reach probably satisfies all the demand you're gonna get from that Gateway city.

 

[Tallguy]

I think if the red line’s going past Braintree it has to go to Brockton. That’s where the density is. Would a red line extension to Brockton plus cape main mostly single track through Brockton be a better value than an OC double track project? I’m not sure but it may be worth exploring. I assume that to do this, SCR phase 2 would be a prerequisite. The RL would extend to Campello and absorb Holbrook/Randolph and Montello. Dual CR/RL station at Brockton center. I count 5 grade crossings that should be eliminated. The ROW looks to be at least 3 tracks wide, maybe 4 tracks in some spots allowing for passing tracks in some locations for the CR. It’s at least something that should be looked into as an alternative to OC double track to see how it pencils out.

First, SCR is doing well enough that the powers that be will fight changes. But if you can give all OC slots to that branch and run GB and Plymouth as RL with batteries. The Braintree Line will have slack where you could slide in 30 minute service to each branch til you get to UMass. Send them to Seaport.