Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street | Downtown

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

shmessy said:
Plaque buildup in arteries cause heart attacks and death.

Until we develop autonomous blood cells/platelets, etc. (pods), we will need storage points in centralized/wastefully inefficient areas of cities.

Transit is more important than big buildings. With all due respect to Odurandina, building skyscrapers without more efficient transit is simply building a house of cards. If we don't develop new means, enjoy all the new and larger and uglier parking garages to come.
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Building residential skyscrapers in the urban core reduces the stress on transportation by having people live where they work.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Talking about underutilized space in the urban core - there's a large parking lot with footprint comparable to this garage right across the Greenway. Is there any chance of development there?
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Are the economics not there to take the garage down, and rebuild it underground or in a way that will work better in the context of that area?

That garage, doesn't appear to be retrofittable for any halfway decent street wall. It you look at that site, it's one of the best in Boston.

I love towers, but I also think they have there place, So I'm not a person that would fill all of downtown Boston with towers, but in this case, considering what's around it, I would trade height and shadows for a better base/ street wall!

That property done right, could link together so much.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Thing is though parking in downtown is limited. For every garage that is torn down (garden garage, parts of government center garage, etc) it increases prices and demand making remaining garages more profitable.

So the closure of the Garden Garage is big, it just made areas like this and the government center garage a good bit more profitable for TD Garden events, at least until the Garden Garage Development underground parking is complete.

And if the Harbor Garage ever gets torn down the parking here will get that much more valuable.

But then again you may have self driving cars in a few years that will basically erode the value of downtown garages, cause urban car ownership will most likely cease to exist.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

JANAM said:
Building residential skyscrapers in the urban core reduces the stress on transportation by having people live where they work.
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How do the maids, doormen, cleaners, repair personnel, food services, mail and package delivery personnel, etc. get to those buildings?

The folks who live there aren't subsistence farmers.

The city needs commensurate transit improvements.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

It's worse. When we get done with building what's already approved + proposed, then add the bad weather days. It's probably a good thing the BPDA is slow-walking many Downtown area parcels. ....So disappointing to see so many potential medium-cost improvements like the Indigo line type stuff not happening.

shmessy said:
Transit is more important than big buildings.... building skyscrapers without more efficientr transit is simply building a house of cards. If we don't develop new means, enjoy all the new and larger and uglier parking garages to come.
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

shmessy said:
How do the maids, doormen, cleaners, repair personnel, food services, mail and package delivery personnel, etc. get to those buildings?

The folks who live there aren't subsistence farmers.

The city needs commensurate transit improvements.
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Besides the snarky tone, I agree that the City needs transit improvements. My building has maybe 30 employees but 300 residents (and not a subsistence farmer among them :)) Density is one of many solutions.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

http://www.bostonplans.org/document...square-garage-bcdc-presentation-2018-06-2-(2)

Looks like the prior design is out. Discussion around moving the allowed massing into a tower at the Quincy Market corner. The pencil tower looks good, but it essentially leaves the garage as is, as far as I can tell. They could still reclad it, but I'd prefer going to ground level with a narrow strip of offices/retail on the Greenway side.

http://www.bostonplans.org/document...square-garage-bcdc-presentation-2018-06-2-(1)

And the previous meeting, where they pulled the prior design down and VE'd the proposed garage cladding and played around with adaptive reuse.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Option 5 looks the best, but I agree there should be more changes to the garage in that scenario.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Option 5 is barely sketched in, it has no articulation and not at all convincing as a serious proposal. It may just be a scare tactic to try and push consensus to option 4 (the one they really want?) and give the impression they are willing to sacrifice height to appease nimbys.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Brad Plaid said:
Option 5 is barely sketched in, it has no articulation and not at all convincing as a serious proposal. It may just be a scare tactic to try and push consensus to option 4 (the one they really want?) and give the impression they are willing to sacrifice height to appease nimbys.
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I like #4. There's no reason to go short in this location, but I don't think it makes sense to place everything in one corner.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

I think parking garages are perfectly fine. As long as our transit is a mess... the forseeable future, we need garages. Just put them underground. Underground garages literally cause no harm whatsoever to the city and still allow people from outside the city to get there. Boston swells by hundreds of thousands of people every day. Its also a regional hub where many people go to that do not live directly within its borders or with access to rail transit. The reality is that a healthy balance of both is necessary because I dont want to know what the T would look like if nobody drove, it would be a mess. Plus no cars on the road would be boring too they add life, cars, bikes, pedestrians, trains, planes all create city life. We honestly need more garages like the seaport... but underground, nothing wrong with that at all.

I remember going to Sevilla Spain as a tourist that city is like an untouched jewel from centuries past and as a tourist driving from a military base we had to park somewhere and we found a perfectly hidden underground garage. I would guarantee Paris has them as well.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

stick n move said:
Plus no cars on the road would be boring too they add life, cars, bikes, pedestrians, trains, planes all create city life. We honestly need more garages like the seaport... but underground, nothing wrong with that at all.
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Just want to point out that the presence of these cars prevents meaningful improvements for pedestrians, cyclists, and transit since they are trying to accommodate traffic and parking needs. Bus lanes, bike lanes, and wider sidewalks all take the backseat because parking garages need access routes.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

stick n move said:
I think parking garages are perfectly fine. As long as our transit is a mess... the forseeable future, we need garages. Just put them underground. Underground garages literally cause no harm whatsoever to the city and still allow people from outside the city to get there. Boston swells by hundreds of thousands of people every day. Its also a regional hub where many people go to that do not live directly within its borders or with access to rail transit. The reality is that a healthy balance of both is necessary because I dont want to know what the T would look like if nobody drove, it would be a mess. Plus no cars on the road would be boring too they add life, cars, bikes, pedestrians, trains, planes all create city life. We honestly need more garages like the seaport... but underground, nothing wrong with that at all.

I remember going to Sevilla Spain as a tourist that city is like an untouched jewel from centuries past and as a tourist driving from a military base we had to park somewhere and we found a perfectly hidden underground garage. I would guarantee Paris has them as well.
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Barcelona has underground garages everywhere.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

sm89 said:
Just want to point out that the presence of these cars prevents meaningful improvements for pedestrians, cyclists, and transit since they are trying to accommodate traffic and parking needs. Bus lanes, bike lanes, and wider sidewalks all take the backseat because parking garages need access routes.
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I dont think so. Theres only a few garages. For garages to do that to the whole city theyd have to be on every street, which theyre not. Not even close.

We have different views though I dont want cars to go away, I like cars and I like driving. I think driving should be for those outside the city without transit. If your in the city train/uber/bus unless your going to see someone outside the city. Taking a car into the city is cool too, I just wish almost everyone that lives in Boston would take the train. There is definitely room and a need for both.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

stick n move said:
I dont think so. Theres only a few garages. For garages to do that to the whole city theyd have to be on every street, which theyre not. Not even close.

We have different views though I dont want cars to go away, I like cars and I like driving. I think driving should be for those outside the city without transit. If your in the city train/uber/bus unless your going to see someone outside the city. Taking a car into the city is cool too, I just wish almost everyone that lives in Boston would take the train. There is definitely room and a need for both.
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The issue with adding garages/spaces is that a large majority of people will always be willing to sit in traffic if they know they will have a place to park when they get to the city. If you want to truly encourage public transportation usage, you have to reduce the availability of parking.

And as sm89 stated, focusing on car infrastructure takes away road space and investment dollars from other more efficient (and much cheaper per person) transportation options.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Equilibria said:
PDA development plan (I assume this is from last month's BCDC meeting):

For some reason I'm having trouble stripping this link... hope it works.

http://www.bostonplans.org/documents/projects/development-project-filings/pda-(1)
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Yeah, there's something weird going on with the link. I manually navigated to it, and was able to get it to work; here it is:
http://www.bostonplans.org/getattachment/612e59d4-d2c6-4ded-82eb-b67abd593c15

(Meanwhile, odd that the date is not filled in on the coversheet).

Regarding the design: it looks like the tower concepts are gone and we are back to a short "spiral" type concept.
 
Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

i have a fresh idea for the project; ask the development team what they want to do w/ no oversight from Boston residents, iag's or agencies whatsoever (save for Massport/FAA).

I'm semi-serious here. This idea can result in nothing worse than the eyesore that exists now (from a process that has already ground down any good outcome to a halt).

It's the heart of Downtown: The team/all on their own can & will produce a great result–w/ good urbanism, maximum utility, & revenue-producing value–but more importantly–put more people within walking distance of where they'll work and play. ....Think of 200 Clarendon: Every unremarkable thing you can say about redevelopment at Harbor Garage–you can say about this site! Blind faith in capitalism at Dock Square!

The actual outcome–obvious and transparent;

A great project turned into fucking garbage.

This should infuriate Marty Walsh.
 
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Predictably, every possible ounce of visual interest and vitality have been bled form the concept. I recall criticizing the the initial design as "Bjarke Ingels on the cheap." The new renderings are so watered down, you can't even see the influence anymore. Another inhabitable massing model. Yay!
 
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