Fairmount Line Upgrade

Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

To the degree where "exemptions" come into place...that's where off-shelf rolling stock in other countries meets every real-world standard of crashworthiness but don't hit the FRA's obsessive-compulsive "buff strength" regs. The stupidity of the FRA regs is sort of like applying automobile crashworthiness metrics from the 1960's to cars today. 50 years ago you drove a "safe" car if it had so much steel in it you were ensured to do more damage to the other guy in a crash than he would do to you. That's why so many cars were built like fuckin' boats back then. It's not real-world crashworthiness. A Prius is more real-world survivable in an accident than some 1971 Buick boat...that's common sense. All these exemptions and agonizingly slow FRA reforms are only to ensure we aren't living by the 1971 Buick boat standard of train crashworthiness. Not 'relaxing' the safety regs to get cheaper trains only so you have to cross your fingers you don't crash. That's where the distinction between RiverLINE DLRV's/time separation and "railroad" DMU's still matters your life in the real world. There's plenty of foreign stock that will never be safe enough for the latter given what traffic (incl. Amtrak and commuter push-pull) it has to mix with here. We just want the stuff that's as safe as your Prius when it gets rear-ended by a '71 Buick boat at a red light. Of which there is plenty to choose from worldwide.

Well put. I think that DigitalSciGuy's original question though (if I can put words in his mouth, which I can't) was whether the T would be issuing an RFP for vehicles that fit the existing buff strength regulations like the SMART vehicles do. The answer to that will most likely be "no."

The T will be buying vehicles that achieve FRA approval, but not necessarily ones that meet the current requirements.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Well put. I think that DigitalSciGuy's original question though (if I can put words in his mouth, which I can't) was whether the T would be issuing an RFP for vehicles that fit the existing buff strength regulations like the SMART vehicles do. The answer to that will most likely be "no."

The T will be buying vehicles that achieve FRA approval, but not necessarily ones that meet the current requirements.

Yeah. It's pointing a dart at what the FRA's gonna do in 1 year (+ 2 years of delays). Which is not a bad idea at this stage if they're front-loading the stuff that isn't such a guessing game. As long as they don't overshoot the target and have to painstakingly revise to the actual FRA ruling, it's just paperwork.

I wouldn't exactly be checking in week-by-week asking if there's been a fast resolution. There ain't gonna be anything fast about how the FRA conducts its business.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

why we don't mix commuter rail and Red Line on the same tracks

Tokyo railroads mix commuter rail and subway.

I would say they're quite a bit more sensible than us in railroad stuff.

Of course, their commuter rail trains aren't the idiotic "1971 Buick boat" style, though.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Well put. I think that DigitalSciGuy's original question though (if I can put words in his mouth, which I can't) was whether the T would be issuing an RFP for vehicles that fit the existing buff strength regulations like the SMART vehicles do. The answer to that will most likely be "no."

The T will be buying vehicles that achieve FRA approval, but not necessarily ones that meet the current requirements.

I have been hearing that they probably will be putting out a final spec that the existing Nippon-Sharyo design can meet, but they are interested in getting multiple bids to see if they can get the price down vs. a negotiated sole source procurement with Nippon-Sharyo. We know they need a high-floor car that meets North American high platform loading gauge requirements, so the majority of "off the shelf" European low-floor designs would not met the spec.

A reminder that the legal notice/procurement document they posted is not yet a final spec with a formal request for bids, but rather a notice to the car building industry that they are finalizing specs and would like to receive comments from builders.

Depending on who gets the Red/Orange order, there might also be some interest in these cars being built by the company that will have a Massachusetts plant. If CNR, CSR, or Rotem get the Red/Orange order and establish a large Massachusetts facility, you can bet any of those three will put together some sort of DMU proposal to counter Nippon-Sharyo's. Remember that Siemens put in a competing bid for the SMART/Toronto order that went to Nippon-Sharyo. They might be interested in dusting that off and bidding, although if they partner up ith CNR or CSR for the Red/Orange order, they might not want to bid against them for the DMU order.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Tokyo railroads mix commuter rail and subway.

I would say they're quite a bit more sensible than us in railroad stuff.

Of course, their commuter rail trains aren't the idiotic "1971 Buick boat" style, though.

Weight is not "idiotic". It's a reflection of diversity of cargo (human or otherwise) on a region's common carrier network. For the same reason allowing pedicabs to share traffic with Mack trucks on the Interstate is a bad idea, running a common carrier rail network means the physics of the weight differentials have to agree with each other enough to be safe. You don't solve that problem by banning the Mack trucks then wondering how the hell you're going to get your pedicab parts delivered to the warehouse now that you've "fixed the glitch". You compromise where the demand is. Each region's rail network does different things in different proportions.

-- Japan: almost zero freight because it's a narrow island surrounded by water ports. Almost total electrification because of small/high-density land area and no fossil fuel reserves. Less need to have every line interoperable with every other line because they can be segregated by purpose with fewer limitations (HSR here, regional there, intermix there but not there). The only thing they have to correct for is speed differential...so, yes, sturdier-built metro stock can intermix. Japan manufactures a lot of worldwide rolling stock, but "Japanese" rolling stock is pretty much only used in Japan because it's too lightweight for most other mixed networks.
-- Everywhere else: there are some significant degree of diesel routes. More land to cover, less density, more cheap gas to not need to electrify the low-density routes. You could never mix metro stock when the railroad stock has to mix large quantities of electric vehicles with large quantities of vehicles carrying internal combustion engine + fuel bulk.
-- More freight vs. less freight: northern Europe has more freight than southern Europe. Scandinavia in particular. Russia has a lot less freight than you'd think given its land mass and natural resources. India has a lot more than you'd think. The U.K. has low volumes, but much higher freight frequencies than mainland Europe. China's sitting on a dilemma as to how much rail freight it needs to develop to ease congestion (and may have erred too much on the side of "lightweight" on some newly built lines to have an easy answer). The type of passenger stock some of these countries buy wouldn't work so well in other countries because their freight profiles are so different.
-- Europe is its own red-tape nightmare. Not because of a nanny state, but because of fragmentation. Lightweight stock in one region can't travel to other regions where there's a heavier mix. They have a headache-inducing array of platform heights and loading guages. So when something has to cross between one area and another it's got to go on this lightweight-designated line, and not that one where it won't fit around the platforms, and requires a transfer here to different equipment. They do transfers immaculately well over there because they don't have a choice; some trains just can't get there from here. But it's got its own downsides for EU officials by making moving people and goods around that integrated economy exceedingly more resource-intensive on the back end than it needs to be. With no easy fix, especially for fixing the disparity where some countries' trains have far less 'portability' than others.


I think it's a gross misrepresentation that the FRA is making us all ride in Mack trucks to punish us out of spite. This buff strength stuff is a semantic difference where they're overly obsessed with the steel in the nose dissipating the force of impact instead of treating the physics of the carbody as a whole. Semantics. With the kind of rail traffic that's run in the U.S. the weight's going to have to be 90%+ the same as it is now to be physically able to dissipate the same force safely. PTC doesn't prevent slow-speed accidents in yard limits where accidents are most common...and yard limits being where nearly all of the continent's largest union stations are located. Signaling doesn't lower the weight differential at all at grade crossings where our roads permit the heaviest trucks in the world (with Congress and the feds considering heavier-still). And you can't ban heavy stuff out of distaste for freights when, like it or not, the U.S. and Canadian economies are the most economically dependent in the world on heavy rail freight and heavy trucking freight.

Likewise, we can't just dictate "BE EUROPE!" and fragment the everloving shit out of our common carrier network to give every special interest their special toys. The U.S., Canada, and Mexico ship freight to every corner of the continent...and each neighboring country owns thousands of miles of freight rail in the other neighboring country. Amtrak has to be able to get from anywhere to anywhere including across the Canadian border; VIA Rail has on-and-off run similar border-crossing routes into the U.S. It is entirely possible within the next 25 years that we'll even have our first border-crossing commuter rail system. GO Transit already hits the Canadian side of Niagra Falls with limited service. Seattle's and Vancouver's CR systems have endpoints separated by only 50 miles (less than the length of the Fitchburg Line). The new Detroit system goes online in about 18 months, and Michigan is tying it in to the hilt with its state-sponsored Amtrak corridor services that it badly wants to get back across the river serving Windsor.

We've comparably lucky that the only network fragmentation North America has to deal with on the whole continent are the high platforms on the NEC and associated Northeast commuter rail vs. the low platforms everywhere else. Big deal...Amtrak uses Superliner coaches in the Midwest and West, Amfleets on anything that touches New York or New England, on-platform ADA (wheelchair lifts, mini-highs, etc.) when high-boarding stock has to go in low-boarding territory. Northeastern commuter rail builds collapsible-edge mini-high platforms when it has to run on a designated freight clearance route. Trains passing through differing signal or PTC systems are equipped with 2 different types of signal readouts in the engineer's cab. Freight shippers in any of the 3 countries check the plate letter of the railcar vs. the route they're taking...match the car's letter with a routing of equal-or-higher letter and you're good to go on any rails from Colima to Hudson Bay.

Standardization is a good thing. Canada and Mexico do not complain at all about being led by the nose by 95% of the U.S. FRA's regs. Euro-land with its spaghetti regs and not-totally portable rolling stock is envious of how "common" this continent's common carrier network is. All we want are their passenger services without the headache-inducing network fragmentation.



So...this is all about semantics, not some revolution of cool stuff the evil FRA is repressing. Ditching the buff strength obsession for equal aggregate crashworthiness opens up the market enough for some good options that require less overcustomization. But options on stuff we've already been buying for 30 years. Those ubiquitous old AEM-7's that pull nearly every Northeast Regional are little more than exported Swedish Rc4's that have been pulling nearly every Swedish regional train (and some Swedish freight) for just as long. We just tacked on expensive mods for that buff strength obsession and slapped some purely bureacuratic "Buy American" cost bloat on it for good measure. The "Buy American" bloat for damn sure isn't going away, but the former can and lower the amount of pointless technical overcustomization we do here. But we're already buying the stuff that's appropriate. Amtrak's new Sprinter locomotives are just tarted-up EuroSprinters...boxy, utilitarian, workhorse, kinda-heavy-even-in-their-native-land EuroSprinters. Remove the buff strength steel bloat but keep the even bigger "Buy American" paper bloat and it doesn't change the conversation all that much. I guarantee the same critics are still going to be shrieking about evil gov't bureaucracy and their train not having their cherry-picked favorite features from that S-bahn they used to ride on semester abroad and that badass Shinkansen they saw that one time in Japan (forgetting that Japan rails ≠ German rails ≠ U.S. rails).

It's just not that kind of game changer. It's removing one stubborn layer of inanity from the buying process, not removing every or even most layers of inanity...or changing what it is we're buying. There will never be a situation where the North American common carrier network compromises aggregate safety, or fragments the network. Either of those outcomes would be way worse. And that means will never see one of those DLRV's or other stock that trends a lot closer to subway or light rail use the same yard and terminal as the Acela. Nor are you going to solve that problem by banning the Acela so you can fragment with DLRV's or Japanese stock. Build a new subway line to Route 128 or dedicated maglev to New York if common-carrier rails are too suffocating a constriction to do useful enough things.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

I think it's a gross misrepresentation that the FRA is making us all ride in Mack trucks to punish us out of spite. This buff strength stuff is a semantic difference where they're overly obsessed with the steel in the nose dissipating the force of impact instead of treating the physics of the carbody as a whole. Semantics. With the kind of rail traffic that's run in the U.S. the weight's going to have to be 90%+ the same as it is now to be physically able to dissipate the same force safely.

Why weight? As you said, car manufacturers haven't relied on "weight" for crash protection, over the past few decades. Instead they implement smarter "crash energy management"-style techniques, such as crumple zones.

Why should our passenger trains be built like 1970s tanks-on-wheels when we know that (a) it's not safe, and (b) we have modern crash energy management engineering that's much better.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Why weight? As you said, car manufacturers haven't relied on "weight" for crash protection, over the past few decades. Instead they implement smarter "crash energy management"-style techniques, such as crumple zones.

Why should our passenger trains be built like 1970s tanks-on-wheels when we know that (a) it's not safe, and (b) we have modern crash energy management engineering that's much better.

Weight differential. You realize that it's going to take a whole lot more than molded plastic bumpers and a good-sized crumple zone to stop a 5 MPH yard collision between a DMU and a 30-car freight train with each car carrying 286,000 lbs. of goods? Prius vs. Mack truck doesn't even begin to describe how big a differential the rail network has to account for. That's why I used the "pedicab vs. Mack truck on Interstate" example. There's no motor vehicle on asphalt equivalent comparison. This is bigger than any space-age lightweight Jetsons-shit materials engineering can account for today. Railroad cars that can safely survive a collision with another railroad car need steel...and lots of it...to dissipate that amount of force.

There is no bureaucratic wand you can wave to make railroad trains as not-heavy as subway trains, or trains from countries with the least-heavy rail traffic work in countries with the heaviest rail traffic. Not without lethally compromising safety. We buy modified Euro stock today. Have been ever since the U.S. railcar industry went kaput. That Euro stock we buy today is not light in its Euro form. You're severely overestimating the size and menace of the FRA boogeyman if you think a simple policy letter is the only thing standing in our way from buying Japanese trains. That stuff is not safe to operate here. Or in most of Europe. We'll be buying the same German-, Swedish-derived trains as before. And doing *some* modifications to them. We just won't be doing this one singularly pointless set of modifications to one part of the train (the nose/ends) all in the name of "buff strength" OCD. It's a minor change. It doesn't open the floodgates to anything-goes. And it most certainly doesn't keep "Buy American" from making our trains more expensive to buy than countries overseas.


Like I said, if you want to be freed from the banality of mixing with common-carrier traffic, build something completely separate and outside the common-carrier network like a dedicated rapid transit line. What we have has got to serve the needs of many masters, and even the Euros would agree that our rail network is the envy of the world when it comes to standardization for any user. Live with it, embrace it, extend it. Just don't mistake it for something it's not.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

http://blog.mass.gov/transportation/mbta/commuter-rail-weekend-service-returning-on-3-lines/

Widely-expected announcement of expanded southside weekend commuter rail service skips over Fairmount. Greenbush and Kingston/Plymouth get Sat. and Sun. schedules restored and Needham gets Sat. schedules restored starting Dec. 27.

Fairmount...nothing. :rolleyes:

As it should? The Fairmount weekday numbers are anemic. What's the benefit of providing weekend service if there is nobody there to use it?
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

I would argue the service needs to be there first if we're going to get people to use it. The presence of the service will also generate economic development, such as housing, office and retail space being built near the stations.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Yeah, it's sort of unfair to say no to expansion based on low ridership. Who would want to use transit that's expensive and barely comes any way?
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

As it should? The Fairmount weekday numbers are anemic. What's the benefit of providing weekend service if there is nobody there to use it?

Umm...because that's the line they're trying to grow with magic Indigo pixie dust? Guess what...run zero service and you get zero riders. Run only 4 rush hour trains per peak and 40-60 minute headways on the off-peak...and you get anemic ridership. Shut down at 10:00pm and you get anemic ridership. It's useless service. Every single bus route that bisects this corridor has equal or better frequencies...and some of those buses don't have very good frequencies at all. People have no choice but to take the same old slow bus into a Mattapan or Forest Hills or Dudley/Roxbury Crossing transfer because these headways offer absolutely bupkis that's any more convenient or usable.

This is pathetic. Commuter rail has the most spare equipment they've ever had and the layover yard next door at Readville is nearly empty most of the service day. And yet they pass this line over yet again without so much as 1 stinking extra train the whole week. This service plan was supposed to be ramping up big 2 years ago. Are we really supposed to take them at their word that quasi- rapid-transit frequencies are ever coming to this line with the intransigence on display here? This is getting to be JP and Roxbury shit-all-over-the-neighborhood bad with the broken promises.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Regarding ridership on the Fairmount Line:

Is there any way to access information about total ridership numbers, station-by-station, and not just inbound-only trips? If this line truly has elements of rapid-transit, which was the MBTAs goal, why not count ridership as such? It should not be treated as an inbound morning, outbound evening commute line. Tracking ridership in both directions the way the Red/Orange/Green/Blue/Silver/Bus do would be a start.

On a related note, I have been using Porter Station for outbound trips on some mornings. It is very clear that this stop (and many others Zone 1A stops) is very popular among reverse commuters. Their (our) rides are never counted among ridership data. Nobody takes the train inbound from Porter - I mean the Red Line is right there! So counting only inbound riders is foolish and misleading.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Regarding ridership on the Fairmount Line:

Is there any way to access information about total ridership numbers, station-by-station, and not just inbound-only trips? If this line truly has elements of rapid-transit, which was the MBTAs goal, why not count ridership as such? It should not be treated as an inbound morning, outbound evening commute line. Tracking ridership in both directions the way the Red/Orange/Green/Blue/Silver/Bus do would be a start.

On a related note, I have been using Porter Station for outbound trips on some mornings. It is very clear that this stop (and many others Zone 1A stops) is very popular among reverse commuters. Their (our) rides are never counted among ridership data. Nobody takes the train inbound from Porter - I mean the Red Line is right there! So counting only inbound riders is foolish and misleading.

Agree. Amtrak counts boardings AND alightings for every stop on its system. And some T and MPO transit studies have provided that data, especially when analyzing specific stations. It may not be monitored as comprehensively as the boardings reported in the Blue Book, but they have to be monitoring it. Except for freebies like Porter-North Station inbound every interzone fare is accounted for by fare receipts.

Also frustrating the Blue Book doesn't segment terminal boardings by line; you can't extrapolate South Station vs. Back Bay and which lines put the proportionately heaviest load on BBY. Or segment stops served by multiple lines by the share for each line. You can't tell how much of Ruggles, Hyde Park, 128, and Canton Junction gets divvied up amongst Providence, Stoughton, Franklin, or Needham schedules. Can't tell how much of everything Beverly-south comes from Newburyport trains vs. Rockport trains. There probably are some interesting ridership splits, especially when NEC interzone commutes and picking and choosing schedules based on rush hour overcrowding comes into play.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Regarding ridership on the Fairmount Line:

Is there any way to access information about total ridership numbers, station-by-station, and not just inbound-only trips? If this line truly has elements of rapid-transit, which was the MBTAs goal, why not count ridership as such? It should not be treated as an inbound morning, outbound evening commute line. Tracking ridership in both directions the way the Red/Orange/Green/Blue/Silver/Bus do would be a start.

On a related note, I have been using Porter Station for outbound trips on some mornings. It is very clear that this stop (and many others Zone 1A stops) is very popular among reverse commuters. Their (our) rides are never counted among ridership data. Nobody takes the train inbound from Porter - I mean the Red Line is right there! So counting only inbound riders is foolish and misleading.

When I lived in Davis and worked in City Square I took it occasionally, but was one of the (admittedly few) riders taking it inbound in the morning. It was probably longer than the 89 Bus to Sullivan to 92/93 to Charlestown but was surprisingly more predictable. There were definitely more riders getting off and heading into the Red Line than getting on as well.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Umm...because that's the line they're trying to grow with magic Indigo pixie dust? Guess what...run zero service and you get zero riders. Run only 4 rush hour trains per peak and 40-60 minute headways on the off-peak...and you get anemic ridership. Shut down at 10:00pm and you get anemic ridership. It's useless service. Every single bus route that bisects this corridor has equal or better frequencies...and some of those buses don't have very good frequencies at all. People have no choice but to take the same old slow bus into a Mattapan or Forest Hills or Dudley/Roxbury Crossing transfer because these headways offer absolutely bupkis that's any more convenient or usable.

This is pathetic. Commuter rail has the most spare equipment they've ever had and the layover yard next door at Readville is nearly empty most of the service day. And yet they pass this line over yet again without so much as 1 stinking extra train the whole week. This service plan was supposed to be ramping up big 2 years ago. Are we really supposed to take them at their word that quasi- rapid-transit frequencies are ever coming to this line with the intransigence on display here? This is getting to be JP and Roxbury shit-all-over-the-neighborhood bad with the broken promises.

I'm not saying the weekday ridership shouldn't be poor, I'm just saying that it is and we should focus on improving THAT first before even thinking about weekend service. It seems like we are trying to solve one problem by creating another. It's obviously tough to have commuter rail level service in a corridor where car ownership is much lower than your average commuter rail community and there is a need for dependence on reliable and frequent rapid transit.

In general, I don't see the allure of expanding weekend commuter rail service (over other service improvements). Perhaps I'm incorrect in my assumption, but I would think most commuter rail riders have a car or access to one. For weekday service, the benefit is avoiding traffic on major highways and avoiding the high cost of parking in the city. This is weighed against the cost of a ticket. On weekend service, highway traffic is much less (though the Expressway can be brutal in the summer) and parking costs are at a 2/3 discount. Add in the flexibility of driving, speed of the trip and the infrequent weekend service and it is difficult to compete, which is why ridership is only 20% of a typical weekday.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

I'm not saying the weekday ridership shouldn't be poor, I'm just saying that it is and we should focus on improving THAT first before even thinking about weekend service. It seems like we are trying to solve one problem by creating another. It's obviously tough to have commuter rail level service in a corridor where car ownership is much lower than your average commuter rail community and there is a need for dependence on reliable and frequent rapid transit.

In general, I don't see the allure of expanding weekend commuter rail service (over other service improvements). Perhaps I'm incorrect in my assumption, but I would think most commuter rail riders have a car or access to one. For weekday service, the benefit is avoiding traffic on major highways and avoiding the high cost of parking in the city. This is weighed against the cost of a ticket. On weekend service, highway traffic is much less (though the Expressway can be brutal in the summer) and parking costs are at a 2/3 discount. Add in the flexibility of driving, speed of the trip and the infrequent weekend service and it is difficult to compete, which is why ridership is only 20% of a typical weekday.

I think that you have a conceptual problem. Fairmont is not supposed to be a "commuter rail line" -- it is an alternative attempt at pseudo rail rapid transit. The population it is serving is largely not using cars today, it is relying on other (bus) transit.

Unless you get to something close to rapid transit level of service, Fairmont will be a failure.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

In general, I don't see the allure of expanding weekend commuter rail service (over other service improvements). Perhaps I'm incorrect in my assumption, but I would think most commuter rail riders have a car or access to one.
I think there's some confusion. Last few comments have been about the Fairmount specifically, not the other lines. Fairmount as "Indigo-ed" is supposed to be a subway-like ride for an inner-city neighborhood, not a standard Commuter Rail line.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

Just to illustrate how farcical the Fairmont line service is, there are huge parts of the day (including near evening rush hour) where it would be faster to get from South Station to Morton Street by way of the Needham Line to Forest Hills connecting to the 21 bus, even though the Fairmont ride is only 17 minutes (when it happens). That is just WRONG.

Miss the 5:10 Fairmont, then the 5:20 Needham connection beats the next Fairmont train. Insane.
 
Re: Fairmont Line Upgrade

I think that you have a conceptual problem. Fairmont is not supposed to be a "commuter rail line" -- it is an alternative attempt at pseudo rail rapid transit. The population it is serving is largely not using cars today, it is relying on other (bus) transit.

Unless you get to something close to rapid transit level of service, Fairmont will be a failure.

Yes - I agree. So let's make it one, but tacking on Saturday/Sunday service with even more infrequent headways isn't going to help the Monday-Friday at all.
 

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