Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Are you new here? I like you. Post more.

Longtime lurker. I'm active on Railroad.net (hence the rail focus). Nice to exercise some alternative to the moderator police state on the RRnet MBTA forum for a change.

One quibble:



I assume that, beyond Taunton, most traffic would come from the South Coast cities themselves, so it doesn't make much sense, from the POV of "selling" the line, to gradually extend to stations that won't have enough traffic, by themselves, to justify the separate branches. Better to run the trains express to the coast at first and then fill in the stations later.

Expressing vs. local stops wouldn't really solve the problem because serving 2 branches still hurts the headways out to Taunton and forces a more limited schedule on the part of the line where 80% of the ridership is. Remember, they have to do single-track on the original build to pass muster with the NIMBY's and Army Corps of Engineers, then infill double-track later when they're operating for a few years. I would rather let that double-track be tied into Phase II extension from Taunton to the coast so the schedules aren't constrained from Day 1. It's not fully incremental. Go to Taunton/140/24 on the single track for Phase I, then build the double-tracking and everything to the FR/NB terminals in a package so the second leg goes online at full capacity from first revenue train past Taunton.

Also, whether they express or not past Taunton it's the operating mileage of going so far out-of-district that ramps up operating cost to untenable levels. If the latest ridership estimates only show 800 daily paying customers south of Taunton split between 2 branches, that's not even going to come close to covering fuel, maintenance, and crew wage costs on the trainsets themselves over just that subset of running mileage. Not when you have to run two separate trains to cover each branch, and they're only picking up 400 people each. Nevermind all of the track, station, schedule, other labor, and other considerable costs that go with operating a line. This is primary reason why it doesn't make sense in one fell swoop. They can get revenue return par for the average CR line to Taunton, but it's pure operating $$$ drain past there.

They've got to get that south-of-Taunton starter ridership much higher, probably 1500+ total for Day 1 service and a more aggressive growth curve in the first decade so the individual branches reliably contribute 1000+ riders each the first few years. That's minimum upside they'd need to offset a steeper-than-usual operating loss for first 10-15 years to a speculative-growth region. Best way to do that is to do some "route priming" before trains ever go all the way down, with Phase I to Taunton and easy, well-coordinated bus connections from FR and NB for 10 years. And promise that it's going to beget a sure Phase II if the transfer ridership doesn't utterly fail minimum expectations. Easier, less monolithic and daunting, more built-in safety valves if the ridership growth outside the 495 belt is a complete flop at the 10-15 year range.


'Nother thing to consider re: ridership. . .

The Fall River line keeps going into Rhode Island, and used to terminate at Newport before the Sakonnet River rail bridge was torn down after being damaged by a barge hit. The tracks are still active on Aquidneck Island for the Newport Dinner Train with RIDOT paying to maintain the tracks, and tracks from Fall River to Tiverton are out-of-service but not abandoned (gas tank farm straddling the state line was a recent freight customer and potential reactivated customer). Each state owns the trackage on each side of the border. RIDOT preserved the bridge approaches when it rebuilt the adjacent highway bridge, and did a study about improving rail service on the island to more general-purpose seasonal transit than just the Dinner Train.

Study also included connecting service to Fall River should the MBTA go there. Initially with bus shuttle onto the edge of the island connecting to upgraded train back and forth on the island. Later with a rebuilt bridge and thru service to FR. As with the Providence line, every MBTA route mile across state lines is paid in-full by the other state. The T can pretty much run as far as RIDOT wants it to go, which is how the T.F. Green/Wickford Junction extension is happening. If the T ever decided to run a handful of thru trains to Newport it would be paid for by RI all the same. Summer seasonal service would definitely offer a ridership pipeline to boost the Fall River branch and make it more sustainable, maybe enough to merit some eventual limited rush hour runs year-round.

However, RI's banking money for its South County commuter rail from Providence to Westerly on the NEC first. That's supposed to be up and running around 2020. So you're looking at another 10 years regardless before they can turn their attention to going all-in on as a trailer to the Fall River branch. So why not hold Phase II until they're ready to play? RIDOT's signaled a "yes, absolutely" that they want in with at-minimum that starter shuttle bus, so T's got a lot to gain by holding a Phase II until RI can funnel some mild ridership reinforcements their way.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

So what we've known for months is official, the Army Corps. selected Stoughton as the best route for the South Coast Rail project.

Good news because it's the only route that made any sense.

Also, I'm just catching up on this thread. F-Line to Dudley makes some points I've agreed with for a while. I think there are too many stops on either line south of Taunton. Freetown? Really? (I know, I know, it's in anticipation of further development of the Fall River Bio/Industrial Park).

The parking lot at Whale's Tooth is slated to be so huge, in large part, as a response to parking shortages at Lakeville which saw far more than the projected number of riders. Fall River and New Bedford feel that their projections are low and that they'll draw not only from their population (each has over 90,000 people), but from the communities around them (as far away as Seekonk and Portsmouth RI for Fall River and as far as Marion and Wareham to New Bedford). It's not beyond the realm of possibility that both will draw far higher ridership than anticipated.

Still, it's clear that Taunton is the hub of this line. It's what bothers me about stops (at any point) outside of Fall River and central New Bedford. The Freetown stop is so close to Taunton that it'll be relatively useless. Why park at Freetown (the station site is just off of exit 9 on rt24) when you can go 10 minutes up the road and have access to twice as many trains? Same with New Bedford North.

I also agree with the half-assing of the line south of Taunton. My fear (and the rest of the south coast) is that if they waited until later to do it "right," It would never get done.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I think the Freetown station is a desperate attempt to get Freetown residents to stop using Middleboro/Lakeville because the station is so over-capacity.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Why park at Freetown (the station site is just off of exit 9 on rt24) when you can go 10 minutes up the road and have access to twice as many trains? Same with New Bedford North.
It's not hard to see the answer to this question. Let's phrase it another way: why drive an additional 10 minutes up the road when you can adjust your schedule to fit the trains that stop closer to home?

I live within a two mile radius of stations serving four different commuter rail lines. As you might imagine, there is a staggering number of trains from which I can choose, depending on which station I decide to use. But without fail, I go to the station closest to my house, which serves just one line. Why do I limit my selection? It is more convenient for me to opt for the shortest time to station and adjust my schedule to meet the frequency of the line it serves.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I think the Freetown station is a desperate attempt to get Freetown residents to stop using Middleboro/Lakeville because the station is so over-capacity.

That's probably a part of it. I think a lot of it has to do with trying to encourage growth in the nearby Fall River Bio/Industrial Park. Given the layout of the park, it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. It is, as you would imagine, very suburban in layout. Large, sprawling buildings surrounded by parking lots. Icing on the cake: There's a massive, smell landfill running alongside all of this. I'd imagine it would be a miserable walk from the train to work.

It's not hard to see the answer to this question. Let's phrase it another way: why drive an additional 10 minutes up the road when you can adjust your schedule to fit the trains that stop closer to home?

I live within a two mile radius of stations serving four different commuter rail lines. As you might imagine, there is a staggering number of trains from which I can choose, depending on which station I decide to use. But without fail, I go to the station closest to my house, which serves just one line. Why do I limit my selection? It is more convenient for me to opt for the shortest time to station and adjust my schedule to meet the frequency of the line it serves.

Ideally, that would be the obvious answer. But I doubt it would play out just like that. There are a lot of people in that area who currently drive 25 minutes to Quincy Adams to take the Red Line into town as opposed to driving 5-10 minutes to Middleborough/Lakeville. The reason? More frequent trains and the flexibility that comes along with it. I don't see why Taunton v. Freetown would be any different, especially if you consider that Taunton will literally have double the trains each day.

I'm sure some people would chose the closer station (Freetown). Especially if they can walk/bike to it. However, I think many will choose Taunton instead. Especially if parking is adequate.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm sure some people would chose the closer station (Freetown). Especially if they can walk/bike to it. However, I think many will choose Taunton instead. Especially if parking is adequate.

You probably have a point there. I'm sure there is a different thought process at work between my urban experience and the Freetown experience. For me, it is a walk to the closest station, whereas the others are a drive or bus ride. But still, my motivation is ease of access, not schedule frequency. And of course, I have a fifth option, too, which is the Orange Line, only a mile away. I probably shouldn't assume I can get into the mind set of the typical exurban commuter.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Any new updates on South Coast Rail?

Yup, the price tag just increased. It's increasing by the day, essentially. I'm sure we can boil it down to a formula and calculate just how much the tag is now.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Its anywhere from 500-700 million....atm..
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Don't blame me, I voted for Baker.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Would he have built this more economically?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

He would have killed it all together.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Actually, $1.4-2 Billion depending on whether it's fully electrified or not.

2 Billion is highway robbery.....I can see 1.1 Billion , but anything higher then that reeks of corruption...
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

2 Billion is highway robbery.....I can see 1.1 Billion , but anything higher then that reeks of corruption...

It's going to be over $1B even as diesel. The station overbuilds and rank giveaways of ponies and candy to every local politician ensures that. The $100M blown already on consultants ensures that. If they built this with utilitarian stations like Middleboro and Kingston/Plymouth that provisioned for later TOD and parking expansion and cut out the whole superfluous Governor's task force and project management flab it could probably be had for $250-300M easy. But there sits those Whale Tooth station renderings with a waiting room larger than North Station's to serve the 500 or fewer boardings per day the latest adjusted-down projections forecast. And a park-and-ride in freakin' Freetown with more bells and whistles than half the 128 stops. Not to mention shit like Raynham's and Easton's demands for total grade separation, sound walls, a new firehouse, railroad crossing public safety training "for the children", and downtown road rebuilds and streetscaping. And the New Bedford mayor's demands for more stations. They are capitulating left and right on these bluffs, to the point where the ACTIVE tracks Taunton-south are going to cost twice as much as the 50-years-abandoned tracks from Stoughton to Taunton.

I don't know what the Army Corps is thinking demanding electric unless they've got their hand in the till as well (likely). This is a landbanked ROW through the swamp with an active operating charter. They can not only reopen it as diesel, but also run all the freight they want through it if they so desired (they won't...no new business to be had, no interested carrier so it'll be passenger-only north of the active tracks). Total bullshit. Route 24 has been an unchecked source of swamp pollution from road runoff for 50 years. But if the wires were there you can guarantee the "harmful visual blight" in scenic fucking Raynham would require hundreds of millions in more mitigation. $2B would be conservative. They could electrify EVERY OTHER commuter rail line in total for that money. Or spend one tenth that amount wiring up Worcester with its three times larger schedule and recover a good deal of the investment over time in new revenue.


This isn't a bad project at all in concept, at least the Taunton part. Better than Greenbush in my opinion, although that one wasn't bad either until the giveaways and concessions spun out of control. If they'd templated the two sanely- and conservatively-built Old Colony lines the ridership to Taunton should be similar to the unequivocal Kingston and Middleboro successes. I'm not convinced FR/NB is within 15 years of ready for it, but getting halfway there sets the table to easily finish later and Stoughton would also be the higher-capacity route for on-Cape rail than the single-track constrained Old Colony. So the restoration's got a lot of utilitarian value to milk over the decades. But this is literally a $1B political graft surcharge it's taking on the build. Maybe more...a lot more. That's why this is quite possibly the worst transit project in the country, challenged only by the crippled 9-mile Hartford-New Britain busway that's also sailing to $1B with three-quarters of it on the take.

And it's why they won't separate out the monolithic build into phases when they know damn well it's impossible to do. Punting Fall River/New Bedford another decade-plus in favor of Taunton first evaporates all the political horse-trading. Which is all the value it has to Patrick, his predecessors, and his likely successors. They know it'll never get built like this, but if they have to phase it they'll kill it altogether instead of doing due diligence because it'll mean conceding a couple election cycles to not being able to wave shiny things in front of South Coast swing voters. This is 100% what it's all about, and 100% why the graft is so abnormally outsized for a non-Big Dig division project.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The idea is on the table to eliminate the Fall River portion entirely. Local officials (in Fall River) are just now complaining about station locations and layover stations. No, they don't want the station moved closer to downtown (the initial proposal has the station about a mile from downtown), they want it moved further from downtown to an isolated spot (Weaver's Cove, if you're familiar) surrounded by highway and water and not easily accessed by any pedestrians. To even study this foolishness delays the project even longer than it's already been delayed and costs more money. If they want to shoot themselves in the foot, fine.

The Battleship Station in Fall River has all but been scratched from the project as well. Just useless for the "central" station to be a ways from downtown and have the train roll at a snail's pace about 3/4 mile to another smaller stop near the city center. Similar to the "State Street" stop on the MNRR in New Haven except that New Haven's downtown area is large, lively and viable thus making the stop worthwhile. That's not the case in Fall River and a small Battleship platform won't do much to revitalize it.

Eliminating the Fall River portion would, of course, mean the elimination of the Freetown Station. Fine by me and Freetown's my hometown. The Freetown stop is really more of a Fall River stop (about 1 mi. from the Fall River line) and is designed to service the Fall River biopark and industrial park. The problem? Well, for starters, there's literally nothing in the bio park. UMass Dartmouth is breaking ground on their facility next month, one company has pulled permits but nothing more, and that's about it. Beyond that, the existing industrial park is a mere handful of partially occupied buildings over a mile from the proposed station. Hardly worth a station in my opinion.

Oh, and Freetown residents... well, only a select few live anywhere close to the proposed station so it will, of course, be an auto-oriented facility (not unusual for these types of station, but not exactly ideal). Moreover, most of Freetown will have easier access by car to the Taunton station (straight up Route 24 from the Assonet side and 140 from the E. Freetown side) which will have twice the number of daily trains that the Freetown station will. Many area residents already drive the extra distance to Quincy Adams over commuting from Middleborough/Lakeville because of schedule flexibility. They'll certainly drive 10 minutes to Taunton for double the service (and a shorter trip once on board). I grew up 5 minutes from the proposed Freetown station. I would rather drive 10 into Taunton for a more flexible schedule.

Freetown proponents claim that it'll work like Middleborough/Lakeville. They're delusional. M/L is a terminal stop. Freetown isn't. As a result, M/L has people driving in from communities as far away as New Bedford, Marion, Mattapoisett and Dartmouth. Freetown won't have that. In fact, even people in nearby communities like Berkley and Somerset will go to Taunton or Fall River respectively. Even 3/4 of Freetown can access the Taunton station more easily than they can the Freetown stop. Scrap it.

Taunton actually stands to gain the most out of the "Fall River- New Bedford" line. Assuming both lines are going to be built, we've already established that Taunton gets double the frequency of FR and NB. Combining that with the fact that Taunton is geographically much closer to Boston than the other two cities (already on the periphery of the 'burbs), it becomes a much more viable commuter option.

On Whales Tooth: The SCR Project actually only includes the platform there. The proposals for the larger, mixed-use station complex are a separate proposal. Much like the Route 79 reconstruction in Fall River, the state has taken the proposal into consideration in its planning process and been in communication with the leaders of the other projects, but neither are part of the commuter rail project.

I'm a big supporter of a commuter rail connection to Fall River and New Bedford (especially New Bedford) and Taunton. I think the most immediate economic impact will be felt in Taunton which, again, is a much more viable commuter option. I think recreation will bring a decent number of reverse commuters to New Bedford (at least, seasonally). The downtown National Historic Park and the events that take place there (Jazz Fest, Summer Fest, Waterfront Festival, etc) are already draws and you'll get plenty of people taking the train to those events. Perhaps more importantly, the commuter rail will provide people in the Boston area a cheap, easy way to access Martha's Vineyard without a car (also Cuttyhunk, but on a much smaller scale). Throw your bike on the train, get off and walk it over to the ferry terminal. NB-MV is already the fastest connection from Boston-MV (easier and faster than Woods Hole) aside from flying. If Fitchburg (almost as long a train ride as NB will be) gets ski traffic, NB will certainly get island traffic. Regular "reverse" commuters for work? Probably not. But definitely recreational commuters.

Fall River, on the other hand, doesn't have anything to draw people down. The Battleship? Eh.. it's cool, but it's not going to bring hoards of people down from Boston. The only way Fall River gets reverse traffic is if the line is eventually extended down to Newport (which RI wants). Even then, you're talking about through traffic and very little impact locally.

I agree with going to Taunton first. I would also highly recommend eliminating some stops. Particularly, Freetown, the New Bedford North stop, and Battleship Cove. They'll slow down an already long route and cost more money to build/maintain for minimal traffic at each station.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Some ideas on how to setup service in cheap phasing:

Phase I: Buses

Set up four different super-express bus routes, hitting up the stations on the proposed line. One would run out of North Easton Depot, utilizing the depot facility and existing parking. The next would run out of wherever Taunton Station would be. The New Bedford one would hit the ferry terminal area and somewhere north of there. The Fall River one would hit up somewhere in the vicinity of Battleship Cove.


Phase II: Easing in Rails

A simple extension to North Easton Station is executed, utilizing the existing depot. No frills. Express bus from North Easton is terminated. At the same time, construct the stations for Phase III/where the buses are running from.


Phase III: Limited South Coast Service

Have some Middleboro and some Attleboro trains turn at their respective stations and then proceed to FR/NB. Mansfield trains would be extended to Attleboro. From there, all Attleboro trains terminate on the easternmost track and then hook over through Taunton and onward to FR and NB. Likewise, Middleboro trains would be reversing and hooking over to FR and NB as well. Taunton buses are still in full swing, but FR and NB buses are reduced moderately.


Phase IV: *sigh*

You have to build a trestle through a swamp between North Easton and Taunton. This is some big bucks. By now, ridership should be cultivated to a point where things may be more palatable. Reliable, efficient service is now in place.



This plan also lacks all attempts at extortion, particularly by Easton. Easton is not getting a free fire station and fire truck out of this, or any other bullshit.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

They can control the riff-raff on the Stoughton route by slicing the project in half to Taunton. It's overheated because the SCR Task Force that answers to no one serves no purpose but to promise free candy to FR/NB and Freetown. So Easton and especially Raynham (which is in no position to be making demands) are grabbing their share and starting with a Greenbush baseline or worse to feel like they're sitting at the adult table. Shit...even Canton is getting into the act about increased rail traffic requiring streetscape improvements in an area of town between Junction and Center where the frigging tracks are grade separated on an overpass because of "train safety" reasons.

The "build me a fire station and streetscape my downtown...for the children" bullshit stops the second SCR has to +1 decade its advocacy for free toys for the out-of-district towns. Then you can start reasoning with the Stoughton Branch folks in a much less-crowded room.


The swamp really is not all that expensive. Or rather, it's a more or less set cost that's not going to get haggled up and up and up over time. No grade crossing or sound wall installations there, no abutters except for the grass and mosquitos. Just bread-and-butter culverts and drainage. The Army Corps are being political assholes, but that electrification requirement has already proven to be a giant bluff on their part they won't hold the state to. Push back. How many acres of swamp does the Newburyport extension pass through? You don't need to build a frickin' causeway when there's already a rail embankment. They are bluffing on that too. Take some soil samples next to Route 24 and show them who's the real polluter.


Taunton...that's the Phase I build. An over-budget project would be a groaner, but in the acceptable range for expediency's sake. Wrap it up in the Taunton casino hype or something. But it wouldn't be a good idea to segment it further because when EVERY town gets its own phase every town gets multiple cracks at extortion. That includes "give us what we want or we want a rail trail instead" to spite their nose for their faces. And, really, that dog park in Raynham is not going to get redeveloped without some transit so that 'burb in particular is not playing a real strong hand. But those folks have definitely proven dumb enough that they'd try to nuke this thing by asking for a trail instead. They really can't salt this ROW away for 99 years...the Old Colony is just too overloaded to handle a full-blast Cape schedule without a relief valve for that growth curve. A reasonable overpay for cementing that needed connection is...well, far from ideal. But can be defended as long as things don't spiral totally out of control. Abolishing the SCR Task Force by cutting off the out-of-district towns from Phase I probably gives the T a leg to stand on for keeping it from spiraling out of control.


Run the buses to Taunton Depot @ 24/140. Get the rehabbed track sewn up to the Middleboro Secondary. Stick a pocket track there for short-term layovers. Deadhead shift changes to the existing Middleboro layover yard. Signalize that E-W branch so there's Cape thru-routing options and NEC emergency diversion options in a cheap pinch, even if it's only at 40 MPH between Attleboro-Middleboro until there's a real need for regular service on it.

I am pretty sure the need for direct rail to FR/NB...about $1.5B or this eventual $2B+ monstrosity...will abate considerably with a bus connection at 24/140. Yeah, that pretty much is backing out of a commitment or consigning it to 30 years from now wait-and-see. But, jeez, if the service levels on a 2-seat ride are far better than this defective-by-design 2-branch schedule and the MBTA district is designed for Boston-oriented commutes inside 495...there is no crying need for service today on an E-W commute corridor like the 195 belt. The Boston commutes are going to be a minority, and you can't stimulate that into cracking the Boston job market wide open for those folks with near-useless frequency schedules.

No quacking official ever talks about practicality of this anymore. It's always about the non-specific symbolic justice of bringing "opportunities" for those cities. Without saying what that is, or how the meager ridership projections demonstrate significant number of people realizing said nebulous opportunities.
 

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